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  #81  
Old 11-09-2012, 01:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Frelinghighness View Post
So, I am pretty confused by now. To be in the line of succession for Monaco, the children need to have parents married only with a civil wedding? So then, if would be important if these two get married.

Also, are you saying in Spain or Britain children who are born and whose parents then marry, have permanently missed the boat on peerages?
In order for children to be in the Line of Succession, their parents need to be legally married at any point before or after their birth.
Religious (church) weddings have no legal status in Monaco, so as long as the parents are married in a civil marriage, that will be enough for a legitimisation.
Even if Andrea and Tatiana's child is born before they are legally wed, the moment they do marry the child will be legitimised and included in the succession line.

I cannot say about Spain but in Britain children born out of wedlock can never be in the Line of Succession to the Throne or inherit Peerages unless special Acts of Parliament are passed. If their parents subsequently marry, those children are accorded styles appropriate for younger children of Peers but can never inherit the actual titles.

To explain better, David Lascelles, 8th Earl of Harewood, has four children with his former wife, Margaret Rosalind Messenger - Emily, Benjamin, Alexander and Edward. Emily and Benjamin were born before their parents' marriage and were legitimised by their subsequent marriage, thus being accorded he styled of younger children of an Earl - Lady and Honourable respectively. However, because Benjamin was born out of wedlock, it is his younger brother, Alexander (born after David and Margaret married) who is heir apparent to their father's title and will one day become 9th Earl of Harewood; consequentially, Alexander is now styled by courtesy as Viscount Lascelles (the Earl's second-highest available title).
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  #82  
Old 11-09-2012, 02:47 AM
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Congratulations to Andrea & Tatiana
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  #83  
Old 11-09-2012, 04:09 AM
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Congratulations to the happy couple. What a Christmas joy will be.
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  #84  
Old 11-09-2012, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23
I am not going to lie. I am disappointed that yet again a baby in this family is apparently going to be born outside of marriage. I'm just going to come out and say it...it makes the Principality's Ruling family look tacky like reality TV stars.

Just call it "Real Baby Mamas and Daddys of Monaco".

What do the Grimaldis have against building a stable marriage first and then bringing children into it?
I have to say I agree. I'm not a prude and I'm certainly not being judgemental. I'm just surprised that a family who portrays an image of being devoutly catholic seem happy to not wait for marriage before children. I mean a one off is one thing, but Albert has two illegitimate children by two women, Caroline was already pregnant at the time of her two marriages, Stephanie had three children by two men all out of wedlock and now Andrea and Tatiana.

I may be old fashioned in my views but I feel a ruling family, no matter where, has a duty to set a good example and role to the younger generations.
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  #85  
Old 11-09-2012, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by crm2317 View Post
I have to say I agree. I'm not a prude and I'm certainly not being judgemental. I'm just surprised that a family who portrays an image of being devoutly catholic seem happy to not wait for marriage before children. I mean a one off is one thing, but Albert has two illegitimate children by two women, Caroline was already pregnant at the time of her two marriages, Stephanie had three children by two men all out of wedlock and now Andrea and Tatiana.

I may be old fashioned in my views but I feel a ruling family, no matter where, has a duty to set a good example and role to the younger generations.
A bit much indeed !
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  #86  
Old 11-09-2012, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by crm2317 View Post
I have to say I agree. I'm not a prude and I'm certainly not being judgemental. I'm just surprised that a family who portrays an image of being devoutly catholic seem happy to not wait for marriage before children. I mean a one off is one thing, but Albert has two illegitimate children by two women, Caroline was already pregnant at the time of her two marriages, Stephanie had three children by two men all out of wedlock and now Andrea and Tatiana.

I may be old fashioned in my views but I feel a ruling family, no matter where, has a duty to set a good example and role to the younger generations.
I think, Pcs Charlotte, mother of Prince Rainier was also born out of wedlock, so it is an historical habit to this family.
And I'm sorry, but where is the problem? Just because a child's birth stops the hypocrisy? Because it is the confirmation what a couple has sexual relations?? But who could believe that Andrea and Tatiana, dating for now 8 years, do not have sexual relations? It would be abnormal and stupid. They are not 14 years old!!!
It is not questin of religion. The world is full of catholics who have sexual relations out of marriage, are they all to blame for??

Le nouveau bonheur de Tatiana Santo Domingo - Gala

I do not now if it is my own impression, but I thnk Tatiana is radiant. Motherhood suits her, she is lumineous.
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  #87  
Old 11-09-2012, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
I am not going to lie. I am disappointed that yet again a baby in this family is apparently going to be born outside of marriage. I'm just going to come out and say it...it makes the Principality's Ruling family look tacky like reality TV stars.

Just call it "Real Baby Mamas and Daddys of Monaco".

What do the Grimaldis have against building a stable marriage first and then bringing children into it?

I do pray to God that the precious little one is born healthy. Today I saw a photo of Tatiana lighting up a cig while pregnant and I wanted to shake her for being so stupid and selfish.
Quite right. The current crop of Grimaldi's just dont seem to be able to have stable lasting marriages and children within the sanctity of marriage.

Whilst it is not in any way scandalous these days, it just seems odd that they just appear no different from trailer park trash!
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  #88  
Old 11-09-2012, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fandesacs2003

I think, Pcs Charlotte, mother of Prince Rainier was also born out of wedlock, so it is an historical habit to this family.
And I'm sorry, but where is the problem? Just because a child's birth stops the hypocrisy? Because it is the confirmation what a couple has sexual relations?? But who could believe that Andrea and Tatiana, dating for now 8 years, do not have sexual relations? It would be abnormal and stupid. They are not 14 years old!!!
It is not questin of religion. The world is full of catholics who have sexual relations out of marriage, are they all to blame for??
I'm aware they are likely to have had sex however as a family who put out an image of being 'devout' they aren't doing a good job. It's clear they attend mass for annual important services and that it's because it's expected of them. If they were devoted Catholics then they wouldn't be having sex before marriage.

I'm aware they aren't 14, but it was my understanding that Catholics, like Protestants, believe that children should be born within wedlock.
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  #89  
Old 11-09-2012, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fandesacs2003 View Post
I think, Pcs Charlotte, mother of Prince Rainier was also born out of wedlock, so it is an historical habit to this family.
And I'm sorry, but where is the problem? Just because a child's birth stops the hypocrisy? Because it is the confirmation what a couple has sexual relations?? But who could believe that Andrea and Tatiana, dating for now 8 years, do not have sexual relations? It would be abnormal and stupid. They are not 14 years old!!!
It is not questin of religion. The world is full of catholics who have sexual relations out of marriage, are they all to blame for??
having a sexual relationship is up to the couple/partners, nowadays is not a big of a deal, who will know for 100% that they share a bed?, but when a child is conceived like they did, everybody will know thats out of wedlock. They're NOT common people, they are royalty who have to set a example to their people and even more as they try to show the people that they're devout catholics.
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  #90  
Old 11-09-2012, 10:51 AM
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It might not be a big deal for most people, but for the Ruling family of an historically conservative and Catholic country like Monaco it's umseemly and strange.

Grace and Rainier did not have perfect private lives, but they worked very hard during their reign to wipe away the shady reputation of Monaco and to give it a sheen of class, elegance and respectability.

It has taken their descendants a very short time to erase it all, imo.

Why make a great show of being faithful Catholics who attend Mass and receive the Sacraments when you probably don't place that much importance on it? Just give up the pretense, is all I am saying.
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  #91  
Old 11-09-2012, 10:52 AM
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Princess Caroline was pregnant when she married Stefano C and the Prince of Hannover.
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  #92  
Old 11-09-2012, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crm2317 View Post
I'm aware they are likely to have had sex however as a family who put out an image of being 'devout' they aren't doing a good job. It's clear they attend mass for annual important services and that it's because it's expected of them. If they were devoted Catholics then they wouldn't be having sex before marriage.

I'm aware they aren't 14, but it was my understanding that Catholics, like Protestants, believe that children should be born within wedlock.
And who says they practice their religion?

People need to lay off. It's 2012, they've been together for a long time, intend to marry anyway and by all means, this baby is going to be loved. Get over it.
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  #93  
Old 11-09-2012, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
It might not be a big deal for most people, but for the Ruling family of an historically conservative and Catholic country like Monaco it's umseemly and strange.

Grace and Rainier did not have perfect private lives, but they worked very hard during their reign to wipe away the shady reputation of Monaco and to give it a sheen of class, elegance and respectability.

It has taken their descendants a very short time to erase it all, imo.

Why make a great show of being faithful Catholics who attend Mass and receive the Sacraments when you probably don't place that much importance on it? Just give up the pretense, is all I am saying.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. Monaco seems to have again descended into `a sunny place for shady people` as once described by Somerset Maugham.
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  #94  
Old 11-09-2012, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by kathia_sophia View Post
having a sexual relationship is up to the couple/partners, nowadays is not a big of a deal, who will know for 100% that they share a bed?, but when a child is conceived like they did, everybody will know thats out of wedlock. They're NOT common people, they are royalty who have to set a example to their people and even more as they try to show the people that they're devout catholics.
First of all, Andrea is not royalty, (at least for now) and Tatiana either.

Secondly, who decides for them that they have to be an example?
And an example for what?
Some people believe that they will not have sexual relations before marriage. It a respectable opinion. This part of people follows its own examples.
Some other people believe to free relations, out of marriage, respectable also. They have also their examples.
Did ever Andrea or Tatiana declared that they will marry virgins? If yes, I agree that they are hypocrits. If not, they are free to live their lifes, and we are not allowed to judge them, and we do not have the right to take them as examples of our own convictions, without asking their opinion.
If anyone of the Monaco's family, (so accused to be a bad example...), were Priest or Nuns, YES I agree they are lying. But they are not, noone of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Empress Merel View Post
And who says they practice their religion?

People need to lay off. It's 2012, they've been together for a long time, intend to marry anyway and by all means, this baby is going to be loved. Get over it.
PERFECTLY said!!

And going to the mass for a funeral or a national day, it does not means that you are practicing a religion...
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  #95  
Old 11-09-2012, 12:25 PM
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[And going to the mass for a funeral or a national day, it does not means that you are practicing a religion] quote

It does indeed mean that, if you actually take the Sacrament of the Body and Blood of Christ, which the Grimaldis and Casiraghis all do when they go to Mass and which the Scriptures and the Church have always taught that you must do only in a state of absolute grace...otherwise you are guilty of blasphemy.

The family's Coat of Arms actually displays two Catholic monks for crying out loud!

Sorry if this is distateful to some people but these are facts, not opinions.

I don't know what is in Tatiana and Andrea's hearts. I am not speculating on the state of their souls or on their relationships with God. But for the sake of an innocent child and for the future of the dynasty I hope they can give this baby what he/she deserves...a loving and stable home within the confines of a happy marrage.
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  #96  
Old 11-09-2012, 12:29 PM
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Lovely suggestion Fürstin but Pierre is already Ranier Stefano,
Andrea himself is also Albert Pierre. This in case the baby is a boy. If the baby turns out to be a girl, well, Charlotte is named after her great grandmother, P. Caroline is also named Louise Marguerite after her two grandmothers... Difficult... The baby could be named Henri as Prince Ranier or Patricia like princess Grace, for example...
By the way, love the hippy name: HSH Princess Flower...
Sounds really awesome
I´m just so annoyed by people who call them trashy and tacky. Omg, a couple who is together for 7 years wil have a baby and marry. Le choc!
I wish Andrea and Tatiana all the best luck
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  #97  
Old 11-09-2012, 12:58 PM
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The family's Coat of Arms actually displays two Catholic monks for crying out loud!
Are they really monks or do they represent Francois Grimaldi and his soldiers who disguised themselves as monks when they attacked Le Rocher and took over Monaco.

In general though I do agree with your view. Unless there is a good reason not to marry (like an unstable relationship) I do think children, especially those in a royal family, should be born in lawful wedlock. While it may be common and perhaps even fashionable these days to have children out of wedlock that does not mean at some future point in the childs life it will not be looked down on. The pendulum does tend to swing back and forth and I see no reason to start a childs life with something that could be a mark against them in the future and which can so easily be remedied by a quick and private civil marriage.
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  #98  
Old 11-09-2012, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by muriel View Post
Quite right. The current crop of Grimaldi's just dont seem to be able to have stable lasting marriages and children within the sanctity of marriage.

Whilst it is not in any way scandalous these days, it just seems odd that they just appear no different from trailer park trash!
I have to agree, Muriel. What type of sex education are these people receiving (or not receiving) that they have so many children born outside wedlock? The Catholic thing doesn't bother me as history has shown that for the right price the Vatican will smooth things over for Catholics who are super wealthy public figures.

I've felt for a long time that the Princely family of Monaco has been tarnished. I mean, last years wedding was not just an obviously insincere pantomime, it was also pretty vulgar with the awful cake, the limos sponsored by Lexus, etc. etc. They just seem to keep shooting themselves in the foot.
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:35 PM
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[QUOTE=NGalitzine;1481833]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23;1481823
The family's Coat of Arms actually displays two Catholic monks for crying out loud!

QUOTE
Are they really monks or do they represent Francois Grimaldi and his soldiers who disguised themselves as monks when they attacked Le Rocher and took over Monaco.

In general though I do agree with your view. Unless there is a good reason not to marry (like an unstable relationship) I do think children, especially those in a royal family, should be born in lawful wedlock. While it may be common and perhaps even fashionable these days to have children out of wedlock that does not mean at some future point in the childs life it will not be looked down on. The pendulum does tend to swing back and forth and I see no reason to start a childs life with something that could be a mark against them in the future and which can so easily be remedied by a quick and private civil marriage.
The highlighted areas two words pretty much say it all for me.

I think what bothers me about the Grimaldis is that out-of-wedlock births are not the exception....they seem to be the rule with those folks.

An occasional slip up is understandable. People are only human and it happens in the most devout families...look at the Luxembourg Grand Ducal family.

Nobody is expecting even an historically Catholic family to live like candidates for sainthood. But these people seem to revel in appearing as common and as louche as they can get away with...and it makes me wonder what is really going on sometimes.
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  #100  
Old 11-09-2012, 02:04 PM
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[QUOTE=Moonmaiden23;1481852]
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post

The highlighted areas two words pretty much say it all for me.

I think what bothers me about the Grimaldis is that out-of-wedlock births are not the exception....they seem to be the rule with those folks.

An occasional slip up is understandable. People are only human and it happens in the most devout families...look at the Luxembourg Grand Ducal family.

Nobody is expecting even an historically Catholic family to live like candidates for sainthood. But these people seem to revel in appearing as common and as louche as they can get away with...and it makes me wonder what is really going on sometimes.
The puzzling part to me is that there's no compelling reason for them not to be married prior to the birth of the baby, (unless there's something going on we don't know about). It's not like they're a couple of 17 year olds or the pregnancy is the result of a chance encounter between two near strangers. Andrea and Tatiana are two adults in their late 20s who have been together forever, and who plan to marry anyway.
The idea that no one cares about this sort of thing anymore is wrong. It may not be the huge stigma it once was but plenty of people, including people in the social circles the Casiraghi baby will presumably move in, still consider it at least somewhat important that a child be born to married parents.
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