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  #61  
Old 11-08-2012, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Difference of opinion I guess. Personally if it was within my power I would prefer my children not be born bastards even if they would later be legitimated with marriage.
It's not a question of opinion but social uses and law. In western europe the concept of "bastard" does not exist. There is no diffference at all between a child born from married or unmarried parents. Absolutely none.

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Why not marry now and have your child be born legitimate and in line to the throne, instead of waiting until after it is born to marry?
Because a civil marriage will not put the child in the succesion line to the throne. To inherit the Prince title the child has to be legitimate by the catholic church, so no matter whether they have a civil wedding or not, by canonical law the child won't be legitimate until the parents don't have a religious wedding.
The catholic church does not recognize civil weddings.


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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Why have the kid tagged with the line, "born x months before its parents later marriage" every time it is written about.

Because that tag does not exist in France (and monaco is culturally a part of france even if theoretically they are an independent land). Not even socially.
Nobody is going to thing about it twice and nobody is going to care about it.

Actually nowadays in France it is more normal to be born from unmarried than from married parents. Something like 55% of the newborns have unmarried parents, and each passing years the numbres are growing.


So the question is, why bother to organize a civil ceremony when it has no value for the child's sake?

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Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
Loads of people use the word 'bastard' nowadays, either in context of an illegitimate child of just the general use of the word in a derogatory manner.
Just for the record, a bastard and an illegitimate child are two different things.

An illegitimate child is a child born out of wedlock.

A bastard is a child a married person has with someone who is not is/her husband/wife.

So, even using the more conservative words and standars you want to use, this child could NEVER be a bastard since neither Tatiana nor Andrea are married to someone else.

Andrea, Charlotte and Pierre, were considered bastards by the church, though, because until Caroline got her annulement, by canonical law, they had been concieved with Stefano, while she was married to another man.
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  #62  
Old 11-08-2012, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by trepstrep View Post
Because a civil marriage will not put the child in the succesion line to the throne. To inherit the Prince title the child has to be legitimate by the catholic church, so no matter whether they have a civil wedding or not, by canonical law the child won't be legitimate until the parents don't have a religious wedding.
The catholic church does not recognize civil weddings.
But Stephanie's 2 elder children Louis and Pauline are in line of succession despite the fact that she married Daniel Ducruet only in an civil Ceremony and never in a relgious one.
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  #63  
Old 11-08-2012, 07:46 AM
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But Stephanie's 2 elder children Louis and Pauline are in line of succession despite the fact that she married Daniel Ducruet only in an civil Ceremony and never in a relgious one.
Are they? Well, then I am obviously wrong.
I thought that was the main problem with Charlotte, Andrea and Pierre, when they were still considered bastards by the church. That they couldn't inherit...
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  #64  
Old 11-08-2012, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by trepstrep View Post
Are they? Well, then I am obviously wrong.
I thought that was the main problem with Charlotte, Andrea and Pierre, when they were still considered bastards by the church. That they couldn't inherit...
All four children of Princess Caroline, as well as the two eldest children of Princess Stephanie have full succession rights and can, in theory, inherit the Throne.

Even if Andrea, Pierre and Charlotte had been considered illegitimate in the eyes of the Church (because Caroline's first marriage was annulled after they were born), following the annulment nothing prevented them from being considered legitimate even in the eyes of the Church. As for Louis and Pauline, the moment Stephanie married Daniel Ducruet, they were legitimised. Camille is not included in the Line of Succession because Stephanie never married her father.

Of course, rules are different in every country. For instance, in Spain or Britain children would also be legitimised following their parents' marriage but would hold no succession rights (to the Throne or peerages).
  #65  
Old 11-08-2012, 09:28 AM
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I think that they care little now to marry and the rights of succession to the throne. According to sources very close to the family, It seems that the pregnancy was not planned, but was well-liked. Andrea was glad of the good news .. here 'cause there was the release of PC .. a form of commitment and respect. Hence to say if there will be the wedding you will see 'depend ..' as will evolve from 'their relationship. Foreign newspapers describe him as a relationship in crisis for years that seems to have been revitalized with the good news. Sorry for my english, I'm Italian.
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  #66  
Old 11-08-2012, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trepstrep View Post
Are they? Well, then I am obviously wrong.
I thought that was the main problem with Charlotte, Andrea and Pierre, when they were still considered bastards by the church. That they couldn't inherit...
First, you will get a lot of things thrown at you for using the word bastard to refer to a child born out of wedlock for several reasons. Here in America it is used to be nasty, offensive and to hurt the person you are speaking to or of.

The problem with Caroline’s children was when they were born she was still married to Philippe Junot in the eyes of the church because the marriage hadn’t been annulled. All Stephanie had to do was marry the father of her children to make them legitimate. It's the reason her youngest is not eligible.
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  #67  
Old 11-08-2012, 10:26 AM
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In Italy we use the expression 'natural child' to indicate a kid born out of the wedlock - no matter if one of the parents or both are married to other persons, or single -.

I do not think that they will name the kid Stefano (not Stephano, as somebody often writes, since the writing 'ph' doesn't exist in Italian), given that it is not a traditional name in the Grimaldi family, and this is a potential heir. Maybe they will use Stefano as a middle name. Andrea will also change his name into Albert III, might he ascend to the throne one day.
As they are 'hippies', well, they could choose Florestan as a boy's name, since this was the name of one of the Monaco princes, or Florestine if it's a girl. Both names come from Latin and mean 'flower'.

ETA: BTW under the new Italian law all children are considered legitimate, although born out of the wedlock, or the parents got married no matter in a religious or civil wedding instead. Unlike France, Italy has a concordat with the Vatican, hence all catholic marriages are automatically acknowledged by the State law.
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  #68  
Old 11-08-2012, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post

Even if Andrea, Pierre and Charlotte had been considered illegitimate in the eyes of the Church (because Caroline's first marriage was annulled after they were born), following the annulment nothing prevented them from being considered legitimate even in the eyes of the Church.
Thanks, Artemisia. I knew about the casiraghis problems with the church.
My mistake was that I thought that to be in the Monaco succession line, children had to be legitimated by a religious wedding. That's why I was surprised that Stéphanie's kids were in the succesion line, aswell, as Stefan told me, because I thought that a civil wedding was not enough.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
Of course, rules are different in every country. For instance, in Spain or Britain children would also be legitimised following their parents' marriage but would hold no succession rights (to the Throne or peerages).
I have no idea about Britain, so I asume you are right. But it is not that way in Spain, that's for sure.
A children born out of wedlock and legitimized but their parents marriage, authomatically gets the same rights in a line of succesion as if she had been born after the mariage. Peerage doesn't exist in spain, so they aren't any rules about it.

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Originally Posted by LadyMacAlpine View Post
First, you will get a lot of things thrown at you for using the word bastard to refer to a child born out of wedlock for several reasons. Here in America it is used to be nasty, offensive and to hurt the person you are speaking to or of.
Hi, LadyMacAlpine, I know "bastard" is an insult often used in the anglosaxon world!

What I was trying to explain is that even if we were to use ancient terminology of past centuries to talk about children born out of wedlock Tatiana and Andrea's baby could never be called a bastard, not even by ancient law, since a bastard was only the product of adultery.

If we still were in ancient times, Andrea's child would had been called "illegitimate" or "natural born" but never a bastard.

On the other hand, using "ancient terms", in past societies, the casiraghis would had been considered bastards, since for the church Caroline concieved them while still married to Junot.

Of course by modern law there isn't such a thing as an illegitimate child.
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  #69  
Old 11-08-2012, 01:33 PM
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If you look at the photos of Tatiana in July IMO she honestly doesn't look any different from the latest. Zimbio I still haven't found an official announcement from the Palace.
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  #70  
Old 11-08-2012, 01:41 PM
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My suggestions:
Flora Caroline Vera Casiraghi for a girl
Marcel Stefano Julio Casiraghi for a boy
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  #71  
Old 11-08-2012, 02:16 PM
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I knew it!!!
Congrats to the couple!
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  #72  
Old 11-08-2012, 02:54 PM
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Congratulations to the couple!
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  #73  
Old 11-08-2012, 03:18 PM
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Please note that a couple of off-topic posts have been removed!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyMacAlpine View Post
If you look at the photos of Tatiana in July IMO she honestly doesn't look any different from the latest. Zimbio I still haven't found an official announcement from the Palace.

French Paris Match reports that they've contacted the Palace and that a Palace official had told them that for Princess Caroline these were "wonderful news that she is happy to confirm" (source: EXCLU. Caroline confirme l'heureuse nouvelle. translation). I guess we won't get more than that.
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  #74  
Old 11-08-2012, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
If she already knew around the engagement time it was a bad decision to smoke
http://lotrafserver.lotraf.netdna-cd...SIRAGHI-17.jpg
Smoking is a bad decision, whether one is pregnant or not.

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Originally Posted by rosana View Post
The baby will be a legitimate heir when the parents marry. That´s what the constitution states.
Assuming they marry. There's many a slip between the cup and the the lip. Many couples fight tremendously after the birth of a child (sleep deprivation, hormonal issues, house totally disrupted). Given Monaco's succession issues and the fact that Andrea is first in line for the throne, should Albert not produce a legitimate heir, I would think they would want this chiild born in wedlock. On another note, Andrea has really lost his looks...so thin and drawn. I hope that there are not other issues at play. He was SO goodlooking before.
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Old 11-08-2012, 07:00 PM
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What amazes me is that nowadays we never see any pix of them together....
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  #76  
Old 11-08-2012, 07:14 PM
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do you think it will be a boy or a girl? :)
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  #77  
Old 11-08-2012, 07:29 PM
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Congratulations to Andrea and Tatiana! :)
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  #78  
Old 11-08-2012, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
All four children of Princess Caroline, as well as the two eldest children of Princess Stephanie have full succession rights and can, in theory, inherit the Throne.

Even if Andrea, Pierre and Charlotte had been considered illegitimate in the eyes of the Church (because Caroline's first marriage was annulled after they were born), following the annulment nothing prevented them from being considered legitimate even in the eyes of the Church. As for Louis and Pauline, the moment Stephanie married Daniel Ducruet, they were legitimised. Camille is not included in the Line of Succession because Stephanie never married her father.

Of course, rules are different in every country. For instance, in Spain or Britain children would also be legitimised following their parents' marriage but would hold no succession rights (to the Throne or peerages).
So, I am pretty confused by now. To be in the line of succession for Monaco, the children need to have parents married only with a civil wedding? So then, if would be important if these two get married.
But, possibly these two have been on the rocks, as one poster suggested earlier. Many of these couples with years and years behind them, suggest to me a couple that is ambivilent.
Also, are you saying in Spain or Britain children who are born and whose parents then marry, have permanently missed the boat on peerages?
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:56 PM
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I am not going to lie. I am disappointed that yet again a baby in this family is apparently going to be born outside of marriage. I'm just going to come out and say it...it makes the Principality's Ruling family look tacky like reality TV stars.

Just call it "Real Baby Mamas and Daddys of Monaco".

What do the Grimaldis have against building a stable marriage first and then bringing children into it?

I do pray to God that the precious little one is born healthy. Today I saw a photo of Tatiana lighting up a cig while pregnant and I wanted to shake her for being so stupid and selfish.
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  #80  
Old 11-08-2012, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Frelinghighness View Post
So, I am pretty confused by now. To be in the line of succession for Monaco, the children need to have parents married only with a civil wedding? So then, if would be important if these two get married.
But, possibly these two have been on the rocks, as one poster suggested earlier. Many of these couples with years and years behind them, suggest to me a couple that is ambivilent.
Also, are you saying in Spain or Britain children who are born and whose parents then marry, have permanently missed the boat on peerages?
In Monaco the only legal marriage is the civil marriage. A religious marriage is optional but has no legal status. Carolines 2nd and 3rd marriages and both of Stephanies marriages were only civil marriages. The children of these marriages, even if born before the later civil marriage in Stephanies case, are considered legitimate and are in succession to the throne. Stephanies younger daughter has no succession rights as her mother never married her father.
Can't speak for Spain but in Britain children born before their parents marry may be legitimized by later wedding but cannot inherit titles or the throne. The elder children of the current Earl of Harewood is a case in point. His younger son, born after marriage is heir to the earldom not his elder brother born before his parents later marriage.
In the case of Andrea and Tatiana if they marry after the baby is born it will be legitimized and have a place in the line of succession. If they do not marry it will not.
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