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  #261  
Old 03-28-2013, 01:06 PM
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Well, I was obviously wrong, and that swedish magazine had it right! That story about Alex been there and them all drinking it the street sounded bizarre and made up, but it obviously was true!

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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
I believe in most monarchies, legitimacy makes a difference as to the line of succession.

In the Monaco legitimacy can be retroactively applied; a child born illegitimately is legitimized by the marriage of his or her parents. Andrea's son, or Albert's children for that matter, can be legitimized by a later marriage and will subsequently have a spot in the line of succession. This is not the case in all monarchies.
Is it not? I didn't know!Could you elaborate please? I always though retroactive legitimacy was applied in all monarchies, but maybe it's just a catholic thing?

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Originally Posted by julliette View Post
I see nothing wrong with the pics. Just a bunch of people happy with the arrival of a new baby.
What's so bad with Charlotte's pic? A girl sits on the floor to smoke a cigarette. Happens all the time.
One of them brought a bottle of champagne and they are sharing it amongst them. I see no one drunk and or even close to that. Pierre is smoking a cigar like many people do. They all seem happy.
And of course, they are doing it outside the hospital since drinking and smoking are forbiden inside. Also, better to make noise outside than inside.
They don't look regal but they are in their private time in a family ocasion and maybe didn't even know they were being photographed.
They don't look regal but they don't look bad too, IMO. Just a bunch of normal people.
Well said!

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The fact is that they represent a country, we not.
Oh, come on! It's not as if they were princes of a real democratic country! They're just the owners of a tax haven diminutive rock by the mediterranean !!
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  #262  
Old 03-28-2013, 01:50 PM
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Is it not? I didn't know!Could you elaborate please? I always though retroactive legitimacy was applied in all monarchies, but maybe it's just a catholic thing?
The United Kingdom - In order to succeed to the Brisitish Throne, one has to be a legitimate descendent from Electress Sophia of Hanover. Legitimised children remains inelegible. You can't be a Roman Catholic, or has ever been married to a Roman Catholic.

Spain - Only legitimate descendents of King Juan Carlos can succeed.

Denmark - Only descendents from King Christian X and Queen Alexandrine can succeed. Individuals born to unmarried dynasts or to former dynasts that married without royal permission, and their descendants, are excluded from the throne.

Sweden - Only legitimate Lutheran descendents of King Carl XVI Gustaf are entitled to succeed.

Norway - Only legitimate descendents from the reigning Monarch and his/her sibling can succeed.

The Netherlands - Only legitimate relatives of the Monarch can succeed.

Belgium - Only legitimate descendents from King Albert II can succeed.

Luxembourg - Only legitimate descendents from Grand Duke Henri can succeed.

Liechtenstein - Only male-line male descendents from the Princes of Liechtenstein can succeed.

Japan - Only male-line male descendents from Emperor Taisho can succeed.

Brazil - Only legitimate Brazilian descendents of Emperor Pedro I can succeed. People born to former Dynasts are excluded from the Throne.

I know nothing about other Lines of Succession, but seems that only Monaco accept retroactive legitimisation. They like to be different.
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  #263  
Old 03-28-2013, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by trepstrep View Post

Is it not? I didn't know!Could you elaborate please? I always though retroactive legitimacy was applied in all monarchies, but maybe it's just a catholic thing?
It's not that it's a Catholic thing, it's that it's a new concept (retroactive legitimacy that is). If a country introduces its retroactive legitimacy laws after it introduces it's succession laws then the legitimacy laws don't apply to the succession.

Thus, in Britain the concept of legitimacy can be applied retroactively, but a child born out of wedlock, regardless of his or her parents' later marital status, is not in the line if succession.

We see this in the case of the Lascelles. The 8th Earl of Harewood, David Lascelles, and his wife, Margaret, have four children. The first two, Emily and Benjamin, were born prior to their marriage, and the second two, Alexander and Edward, were born after their marriage. Consequently, neither Emily, Benjamin, nor Emily's children, are in the line of succession to the British throne. On the other hand, Alexander is something like the 53rd person in the line of succession (or was as of 2011), immediately after his father. Alexander's son, also illegitimate, is not in the line of succession, and the 54th person (or thereabouts) is Edward. Furthermore, the heir apparent of the Earldom of Harewood is the current Earl's second born but first legitimately born son, Alexander, whose heir presumptive were he to inherit today would be his younger brother.
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  #264  
Old 03-28-2013, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire View Post

The United Kingdom - In order to succeed to the Brisitish Throne, one has to be a legitimate descendent from Electress Sophia of Hanover. Legitimised children remains inelegible. You can't be a Roman Catholic, or has ever been married to a Roman Catholic.
Not entirely true.

Only legitimately born descendants from Electress Sophia of Hanover can inherit, and currently rules of male primogeniture apply.

Children born out of wedlock or adopted are ineligible to inherit. The Royal Marriage Act 1772 applies to all descendants of George II, and marriages in contravention to the act are deemed void and offspring resulting from it are ineligible.

Being a Roman Catholic makes one ineligible as well. If one marries someone who at the time of the wedding is a Roman Catholic then they become ineligible. However, if the Roman Catholic converts prior to the marriage then the succession remains intact (such as when Peter Phillips married Autumn Kelly), or if a spouse who was not Catholic at the time of marriage but later converted, the line of succession remains intact (as is the case of the Duke of Kent). Individuals who have a Catholic parent can be in the line of succession if they themselves are not Catholic - the Duke of Kent's daughter (and her children) is in the line of succession despite her mother's religion, and until such time as they are confirmed as Roman Catholics (as teenagers), some of the children of the Duke of Kent's sons are in the line of succession as well (both of his sons married Catholics and one converted, so their 5 children are all being raised Catholic but as of yet only 2 have been confirmed, so the other 3 are still in the line).
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  #265  
Old 03-28-2013, 02:43 PM
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I'm sorry for my ignorance but what do you mean with being confirmed as a catholic?
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  #266  
Old 03-28-2013, 02:55 PM
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In the Catholic Church there are 7 sacraments, one of which is confirmation. As per Wiki, through it Catholics "receive the Holy Spirit and become adult members of the Catholic Church." Basically (I think) it's the point at which the individual accepts the church for him or herself as opposed to simply something their parents make them do. Currently it typically occurs between the age of 11 and 16.

In terms of the succession to the British throne, it means that individuals raised in the Catholic Church are eligible to succeed to the throne until they are confirmed in the church - prior to that point from a succession standpoint they're not seen as Catholics. Thus, the Earl of St Patrick's children are in the line of succession until their confirmation - his elder children, Lord Downpatrick and Lady Marina-Charlotte have both been confirmed and thus are not in the line of succession, while his youngest, Lady Amelia, has not yet been confirmed and is still in the line. Both of the children of Lord Nicholas Windsor were baptized in the Catholic Church, but are in the line of succession for now as they haven't been confirmed (the elder is 5).
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  #267  
Old 03-28-2013, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by fandesacs2003 View Post
Sacha is the nickname for Alexandre. Nice name.
If one day he becomes Prince it will be Alexandre
Thank you for that clarification Fandesacs. I like the idea that he might one day be Prince and be heir to the throne too .
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  #268  
Old 03-28-2013, 03:34 PM
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Are these pics been posted already?

Primeras imágenes de Andrea Casiraghi y Tatiana Santo Domingo como padres - Foto 1

Good to see that he had shaven his beard..they look fine and content.Normal lol

http://www.hola.com/realeza/casa_mon...ras-foto-hijo/

According to Hola,wedding is going to be this summer and it's going to be an entirely private affair.It may be celebrated in Switzerland,country where Tatiana was born followed by a party in Monaco with all their friends although nothing is official yet.
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  #269  
Old 03-28-2013, 03:53 PM
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Would that be a Muzungu scarf on Sasha's maxicosi?

I wonder if Andrea works in London.
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  #270  
Old 03-28-2013, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
In the Catholic Church there are 7 sacraments, one of which is confirmation. As per Wiki, through it Catholics "receive the Holy Spirit and become adult members of the Catholic Church." Basically (I think) it's the point at which the individual accepts the church for him or herself as opposed to simply something their parents make them do. Currently it typically occurs between the age of 11 and 16.

In terms of the succession to the British throne, it means that individuals raised in the Catholic Church are eligible to succeed to the throne until they are confirmed in the church - prior to that point from a succession standpoint they're not seen as Catholics. Thus, the Earl of St Patrick's children are in the line of succession until their confirmation - his elder children, Lord Downpatrick and Lady Marina-Charlotte have both been confirmed and thus are not in the line of succession, while his youngest, Lady Amelia, has not yet been confirmed and is still in the line. Both of the children of Lord Nicholas Windsor were baptized in the Catholic Church, but are in the line of succession for now as they haven't been confirmed (the elder is 5).
Thank you for the explanation. I know the ceremony you're talking about. In Portugal we call it Crisma. My doubts arised because though it IS in fact a confirmation that you belong to the Catholic Church and it marks the end of you preparation, sometimes we forget about it. In fact, Crisma is not that important to many people here in Portugal, I know many people who never did it (myself included) and it would never cross anyone's mind to say they are not catholic. Interesting fact that of still being in line of sucession until confirmed.
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  #271  
Old 03-28-2013, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by julliette View Post

Thank you for the explanation. I know the ceremony you're talking about. In Portugal we call it Crisma. My doubts arised because though it IS in fact a confirmation that you belong to the Catholic Church and it marks the end of you preparation, sometimes we forget about it. In fact, Crisma is not that important to many people here in Portugal, I know many people who never did it (myself included) and it would never cross anyone's mind to say they are not catholic. Interesting fact that of still being in line of sucession until confirmed.
I found it interesting myself. Granted, I'm basing the understanding of the line of succession on what Wikipedia says about it, so the whole idea could be entirely off base.
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  #272  
Old 03-28-2013, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by cepe View Post
I dont get "respectful" not to smoke - respectful of whom? It's allowed where they were.

It is respectful of all of us to accept different norms the world over.
I think I said it in another post: there are many babies, sick children and pregnant women coming in and out of the hospital (which is exclusively a maternal/children hospital), but you are right, it's allowed and they can do it.

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Originally Posted by burnt View Post
Are these pics been posted already?

Primeras imágenes de Andrea Casiraghi y Tatiana Santo Domingo como padres - Foto 1

Good to see that he had shaven his beard..they look fine and content.Normal lol

Primeras imágenes de Andrea Casiraghi y Tatiana Santo Domingo como padres
.
They look sweet, proud and happy!! Thanks for posting Burnt.

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  #273  
Old 03-28-2013, 08:38 PM
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How bizarre is it looking at photos of Andrea with a baby carrier? Lol. He's definitely no longer the teeny bopper pretty pseudo-Prince. He's a father now and glad to see he's looking good but he's as wary of paparazzi as ever. Probably more so. He's always been the most private out of the Casiraghis, I wonder how he'll treat media interest and paparazzi stalking his child.
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  #274  
Old 03-29-2013, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire View Post
The United Kingdom - In order to succeed to the Brisitish Throne, one has to be a legitimate descendent from Electress Sophia of Hanover. Legitimised children remains inelegible. You can't be a Roman Catholic, or has ever been married to a Roman Catholic.

Spain - Only legitimate descendents of King Juan Carlos can succeed.

Denmark - Only descendents from King Christian X and Queen Alexandrine can succeed. Individuals born to unmarried dynasts or to former dynasts that married without royal permission, and their descendants, are excluded from the throne.

Sweden - Only legitimate Lutheran descendents of King Carl XVI Gustaf are entitled to succeed.

Norway - Only legitimate descendents from the reigning Monarch and his/her sibling can succeed.

The Netherlands - Only legitimate relatives of the Monarch can succeed.

Belgium - Only legitimate descendents from King Albert II can succeed.

Luxembourg - Only legitimate descendents from Grand Duke Henri can succeed.

Liechtenstein - Only male-line male descendents from the Princes of Liechtenstein can succeed.

Japan - Only male-line male descendents from Emperor Taisho can succeed.

Brazil - Only legitimate Brazilian descendents of Emperor Pedro I can succeed. People born to former Dynasts are excluded from the Throne.

I know nothing about other Lines of Succession, but seems that only Monaco accept retroactive legitimisation. They like to be different.
Errr... there is some mistake here, or I didn't explain myself properly.
I know only legimitate descendants can succeed in every country. What I mean is I thought everywhere worked like monaco and reatroactive legitimacy applied.

You say that in Spain only legitimate descents can inherit, and of course you are right. But retroactive legitimacy does exists, exactly like in Monaco.
Also, in France, when they had kings, retroative legimimacy was accepted.
It's very easy to understand why. Those were traditional catholic monachies. Once you marry the mother of your children in church, your children become legitimate, in the eyes of the catholice church they are the same as childron born after the wedding.

That's why in traditional catholic countries, retroactive legimimacy has historically always applied.

I just wonder if it works different in other countries as if anyone knows of any case where retroactive legitimacy did not apply, because as far as I knew retroactive legitimacy was the rule in all royal and nobiliary houses.
Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
It's not that it's a Catholic thing, it's that it's a new concept (retroactive legitimacy that is). If a country introduces its retroactive legitimacy laws after it introduces it's succession laws then the legitimacy laws don't apply to the succession.
Oh, no! It is not a new concept at all! I could tell you many stories about retroactive legimacy in 16th and 17th century europe!

It's a concept that has always existed, maybe as old as monarcny itself.

Quote:
Thus, in Britain the concept of legitimacy can be applied retroactively, but a child born out of wedlock, regardless of his or her parents' later marital status, is not in the line if succession.
Thank you for your explanations about Britain and the Lascelles. It was very interesting.
Maybe modern Britain is an exception? Or maybe it's a catholic/non catholic thing?
Because in mediterranean Europe it has always existed and retroactively legitimated children always could inherit thrones. Actually, Monaco probably just follows the french tradition...

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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
I found it interesting myself. Granted, I'm basing the understanding of the line of succession on what Wikipedia says about it, so the whole idea could be entirely off base.
I think you both are right, Ish and juliette. I guess the british norm is a traditional norm, from times when "Confirmation" was a more significant sacrament.

Nowadays, thought it is as juliette says a "nearly forgotten" sacrament in most catholic countries, and one many people just forget about.

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Originally Posted by Juliette2 View Post
I think I said it in another post: there are many babies, sick children and pregnant women coming in and out of the hospital (which is exclusively a maternal/children hospital), but you are right, it's allowed and they can do it.

Well those pregnant women and children are also exposed to all the diesel fumes of the cars stopping at the hospital door where the casiraghis are celebrating, and diesel fumes are much more dangerous to our lungs than tiny cigarettes in open air!
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  #275  
Old 03-29-2013, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by burnt View Post
Are these pics been posted already?

Primeras imágenes de Andrea Casiraghi y Tatiana Santo Domingo como padres - Foto 1

Good to see that he had shaven his beard..they look fine and content.Normal lol

Primeras imágenes de Andrea Casiraghi y Tatiana Santo Domingo como padres

According to Hola,wedding is going to be this summer and it's going to be an entirely private affair.It may be celebrated in Switzerland,country where Tatiana was born followed by a party in Monaco with all their friends although nothing is official yet.
I prefer him with the beard
They both look really beautiful. Tatiana's face seems prettier & sweeter now after the birth. Good for them.
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  #276  
Old 03-29-2013, 12:14 PM
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Has it been confirmed that his name is Alexandre? Is so, a very nice name.
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  #277  
Old 03-29-2013, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by trepstrep View Post
That's why in traditional catholic countries, retroactive legimimacy has historically always applied.

I just wonder if it works different in other countries as if anyone knows of any case where retroactive legitimacy did not apply, because as far as I knew retroactive legitimacy was the rule in all royal and nobiliary houses.
Thanks!
The only other country where it might have applied would have been Luxembourg but in both cases the princes (Henri's brother and younger son) renounced their succession rights before marrying the mothers of their children who also have no succession rights.
Certainly in the UK post birth legitimation gives children no rights to succession to peerages or the throne, although they usually they usually take courtesy titles of younger children of a peer. Other than Monaco I cannot imagine any child born before a legal and approved marriage being allowed to succeed to the throne.
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  #278  
Old 03-29-2013, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by GracieGiraffe View Post
Has it been confirmed that his name is Alexandre? Is so, a very nice name.
As far as I know, I have never heard of Alexander as the name of this child. Sacha is his name according to Stéphane Bern (who is a famous french journalist close to the Grimaldi's and he said that it was Caroline who told him the name. He was at the rose ball)
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  #279  
Old 03-29-2013, 02:02 PM
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Yes, it's seems that his name is Sacha Casiraghi.

Now, I do hope Prince Albert and Princess Charlene have a child.

Prince Sacha of Monaco would be one of the most ridiculous things in the History of Monarchies.
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Old 03-29-2013, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire View Post
Yes, it's seems that his name is Sacha Casiraghi.

Now, I do hope Prince Albert and Princess Charlene have a child.

Prince Sacha of Monaco would be one of the most ridiculous things in the History of Monarchies.
I'm not partial to the name Prince Sacha of Monaco either, but if he'd be the right fit, what's in a name? But I think that the name is telling - they don't think this child will be prince of Monaco. I'd say there is every intention that Charlene will one day have a child. JMHO of course
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