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  #281  
Old 03-02-2009, 05:53 AM
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Charles was in the Navy for 5 years and completed the full training in the navy. Although he had a taster of the other services, it was just a taster and the training back then for the RAF was a much shorter course because the crafts were not as technical.
We don't know just yet how long Wills is planning to spend in the SAR, so he could well spend a similar time as Charles did in the navy.
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  #282  
Old 03-02-2009, 05:56 AM
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HM served for a very short time and has no experience of being in the Navy, Army or Airforce, she was in the ATS which at the time was not considered to be anything, it was better than making munitions or becoming a Landgirl.
Fair point. I don't believe one it is necessary for the future King to serve in the forces. I merely commented on what the press reaction would potentially have been, if Will had chosen not to. That said, I think there is a long tradition in the UK of the senior members of the royal family, including future Kings, serving in the forces.
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  #283  
Old 03-02-2009, 06:14 AM
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Do you think that's also true of Charles's naval career? I mean, I know he stayed in the Navy for several years after training, but everyone knew he wasn't going to make a career out of being a naval officer.
The difference is, I believe, the cost. Charles completed his full training programme at the time with the RAF and then the Navy. The costs were minimal for both but he could if he wished, (as he had earned his wings), have become a respected working RAF officer.

The problem with William, is that he has bypassed normal training because he was, at the time, an Army Officer just having a taste of the RAF. As I said, we all knew he was going to have a little sample of the other arms, and the drastically shortened flight training to get his wings would have been accepted, almost without a murmur, until he swopped to the RAF. If he had stayed in the Army as a pen pusher, many would have had more respect for him. As it is, quite a few in the forces seem to be questioning if this was the plan all along to get the job he really wanted, by cheating his way in.

In real life, at his age, height and with impaired vision he would not have been accepted for pilot training, nor would a transfer have been accepted for the same reasons. It costs to train any officer but a pilot officer clearly costs so much more.
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  #284  
Old 03-02-2009, 06:26 AM
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We don't know just yet how long Wills is planning to spend in the SAR, so he could well spend a similar time as Charles did in the navy.
You seem to be missing the point, William was given a high speed training programme with the RAF, with the belief that he was and would remain an Army Officer. I can't think of any comparisons that don't sound trite, perhaps similar to giving the boy who didn't pass his driving test a licence because he was going to be riding a motorbike anyway. A 'just to say he's done it' scenario. If William had been acceptable as Joe Bloggs applying to train for the SAR team and had gone through the regular channels, cost no problem, even if he buys himself out after a couple of months.

But he wouldn't have been accepted, the rules haven't just been bent, they have been hacksawn. The cost of bringing him up to the same standard of a normal SAR trainee have already increased, something that wouldn't have happened if he had completed the normal training before being given his wings.
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  #285  
Old 03-02-2009, 07:50 AM
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what makes the monarchy going these days is the CREDIBILITY of the protagonist who is the monarch and maybe the consort. in britain the institution was lucky enough to come up with a longstanding monarch who was able to gain the respect of the people because of her interpretation of service and duty. charles may be half way here but i would hate so see the prince william failing to achieve because he has a tendency to go down the path of tricking and deciving in favour of own advantage, almost on the verge of picking up the dodgy image or sneakiness that surround some other family members these days what could finally ruin the legacy of his forefathers.
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  #286  
Old 03-02-2009, 10:29 AM
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However, the longstanding monarch who was able to gain the respect of the people because of her interpretation of service and duty surely knows all the details of Williams military plans and yet, he has proceeded in a certain manner anyway. So either she approved, or you would have to believe that William proceeded against her advice and consent. It is this last part that I find hard to believe.
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  #287  
Old 03-02-2009, 10:44 AM
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However, the longstanding monarch who was able to gain the respect of the people because of her interpretation of service and duty surely knows all the details of Williams military plans and yet, he has proceeded in a certain manner anyway. So either she approved, or you would have to believe that William proceeded against her advice and consent. It is this last part that I find hard to believe.
I think we all know that there is some kind of "anticipatory obedience" surrounding the Royals and this could well be the result of it without the queen and or Charles realising what was really going on.
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  #288  
Old 03-02-2009, 10:52 AM
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However, the longstanding monarch who was able to gain the respect of the people because of her interpretation of service and duty surely knows all the details of Williams military plans and yet, he has proceeded in a certain manner anyway. So either she approved, or you would have to believe that William proceeded against her advice and consent. It is this last part that I find hard to believe.
fair point - we do not know the level of influence elizabeth II has - it is charles' business to deal with it in the first place - but i find as hard to believe that she will be particulary amused about william playing tricks on this raf supervisors, misusing army equipment for personal trips etc and the resulting stories. as i said before it is not the first time this happens in the family (andrew & edward, remember) but with william it is more important than with anyone else because all eyes will be on him one day.
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  #289  
Old 03-02-2009, 11:03 AM
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Which is why I believe that it is likely that HM concerns herself more with all of William's plans than maybe Harry or her other grandchildren. He is the future monarch. Even if it was possible that she didn't know beforehand about the whole helicopter business, now that she does, I would imagine that she watches what William does with his military connections even closer than before. Hence my opinion that she must know how he is going about it.
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  #290  
Old 03-02-2009, 11:24 AM
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Hence my opinion that she must know how he is going about it.
i agree and maybe he gets bawled out from time to time but it only lasts that long what can you do. elizabeth might relay on the saying that wisdom comes with age and keep william in her prayers.
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  #291  
Old 03-02-2009, 11:38 AM
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True. Hopefully, the passing of HM and Prince Charles are far away and William will have many years of experience and public service to carry him through to the throne. All of this youthful indiscretion will be forgotten.
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  #292  
Old 03-02-2009, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by kimebear View Post
However, the longstanding monarch who was able to gain the respect of the people because of her interpretation of service and dutysurely knows all the details of Williams military plans and yet, he has proceeded in a certain manner anyway. So either she approved, or you would have to believe that William proceeded against her advice and consent. It is this last part that I find hard to believe.
Why would HM know? In the same way that she probably has no idea which child is going where or when, that is generally left to the secretaries to sort out. The palace officials might know, Clarence House probably did know and helped find the loophole but I don't believe William proceeded against HM's advice or without her consent, purely because she wasn't consulted.

Even if she was, it doesn't make it right nor does it make it the right way to go about ensuring support for the monarchy.
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  #293  
Old 03-02-2009, 01:58 PM
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If HM wasn't consulted about the manner in which the heir of the heir was proceeding in his military career, there is something much more worrying afoot. After the past incidents that William was involved in, if his career path is not being monitored more closely by the monarch, then she is dropping the ball. Or, if she has passed on the responsibility to Charles, then he is dropping the ball. Leading to a question of what kind of king will Charles be if he is allowing his son to abuse his nation's military rules and take advantage, as some see this situation.

I, for one, believe that HM considers the monarchy bigger than just one person and if she saw a future king jeopardizing the monarchy as a whole, she would put an end to it. She may not care how many clubs her grandsons go to, or what kind of dresses her grandaughters wear, but I think that she would be concerned with the military being abused if indeed it was.
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  #294  
Old 03-02-2009, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by kimebear View Post
If HM wasn't consulted about the manner in which the heir of the heir was proceeding in his military career, there is something much more worrying afoot.
Not really, it shows either that she is a doting Grandmother or has learned from her past experience what happens when you interfere. Once the transfer was allowed, what could she possibly do without making herself, William and Charles look complete idiots.
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I, for one, believe that HM considers the monarchy bigger than just one person and if she saw a future king jeopardizing the monarchy as a whole, she would put an end to it. She may not care how many clubs her grandsons go to, or what kind of dresses her grandaughters wear, but I think that she would be concerned with the military being abused if indeed it was.
Or, as she did with Diana, she hopes it will all just blow over. The rules were manipulated to accommodate Williams personal ambitions and that along with his other deceptions is shameful. (Which is why the base mods are at full tilt monitoring and removing)!
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  #295  
Old 03-02-2009, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by kimebear View Post

I, for one, believe that HM considers the monarchy bigger than just one person and if she saw a future king jeopardizing the monarchy as a whole, she would put an end to it. She may not care how many clubs her grandsons go to, or what kind of dresses her grandaughters where, but I think that she would be concerned with the military being abused if indeed it was.
Question is: when did she saw it and what could she actually do at this point in the story? I doubt she was informed before that her grandson would use a loophole which could be seen differently by the media than her advisors did - that this could lead to the next round of "abuse" stories etc. And afterwards: what do you think she could have done?
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  #296  
Old 03-02-2009, 02:28 PM
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Not really, it shows either that she is a doting Grandmother or has learned from her past experience what happens when you interfere. Once the transfer was allowed, what could she possibly do without making herself, William and Charles look complete idiots.
But that is exactly my point. Being a doting grandmother is fine, but HM is also the reigning monarch and it is not okay to endulge her grandson, a future monarch, at the expense of her subjects, especially the ones in the military, nor turn a blind eye if he proceeds against her advice. The transfer should not have happened in the first place, if it is really such a brouhaha, if she is doing her job as monarch, head of the military and yes, grandmother.

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Or, as she did with Diana, she hopes it will all just blow over. The rules were manipulated to accommodate Williams personal ambitions and that along with his other deceptions is shameful. (Which is why the base mods are at full tilt monitoring and removing)!
Monitoring and removing what, exactly?

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Question is: when did she saw it and what could she actually do at this point in the story? I doubt she was informed before that her grandson would use a loophole which could be seen differently by the media than her advisors did - that this could lead to the next round of "abuse" stories etc. And afterwards: what do you think she could have done?
First, let's assume for the sake of argument that this is really as big a deal as some are making of it. Personally, I'm not convinced that it is.

If she wasn't informed about something like this before it happened, then someone should lose their job. If it is indeed an event that could precipate a crisis that endangers the monarchy, if her advisors did not see the possible ramifications then they are not very good at what they do and should, perhaps, be replaced. However, if her advisors are doing what they are supposed to do (advising her), she is still a very long reigning monarch who should know better than to blindly follow their advice 100% of the time.

Afterwards, there is nothing that can be done. Quite frankly, I think it was all done intentionally and there is no remorse about it, nor do they think there should be.
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  #297  
Old 03-02-2009, 03:20 PM
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Monitoring and removing what, exactly?
Any and all negative or questioning comments, the same as here.
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Quite frankly, I think it was all done intentionally and there is no remorse about it, nor do they think there should be.
And that is the worrying thing, that they do not care that they have been seen to cheat.
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  #298  
Old 03-02-2009, 04:07 PM
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True. Hopefully, the passing of HM and Prince Charles are far away and William will have many years of experience and public service to carry him through to the throne. All of this youthful indiscretion will be forgotten.
This is exactly what I think the queen believes: that the mistakes her grandchildren make now, or their lack of participation in royal duties, don't really matter because they will have so many years of dutiful royal service later on. Sometimes I think people forget that when the younger royals make mistakes, a fair share of the "blame" should fall at the Queen's feet. People praise the Queen for her dutiful life (as I think they should) and deplore the behaviour of the younger royals by contrasting their behaviour with the Queen, but they forget that if the Queen really felt her grandchildren's behaviour was damaging to the monarchy, there would be some signs of an attempt to discipline or reprimand them. I don't know what goes on between the Queen and her grandchildren in private, but it seems to me that she isn't enormously concerned by some of the mistakes her grandchildren make and is giving them time and space (maybe too much time and space) to grow up, make mistakes, and taste a life that is at least somewhat free from the full burden of royal existence.
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  #299  
Old 03-02-2009, 04:19 PM
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Any and all negative or questioning comments, the same as here.
Really? What comments might those be? I know we only delete comments when they are made after moderator warnings and are against the written rules of the forums. But enough about us.

What proof do you have to offer that the base mods are doing what you claim?


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And that is the worrying thing, that they do not care that they have been seen to cheat.
I think you misunderstood me. I was referring to the Queen and Prince Charles when I said that they do not appear to care, not William. If that is the case, the concern should be with the activities and mindset of the current and next monarch, not the one after the next.
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  #300  
Old 03-02-2009, 04:28 PM
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there is a difference between falling out of clubs and playing tricks etc in order to get an advantage, or even lying. being drunk every weekend might be a "mistake" that will probably correct itself with age but william's obvious tendency towards insincerity or sneakiness is a character issue that i don't prefer to see on my future head of state.
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