William and Kate: engagement and relationship rumours and musings 2009

[Menarue]

Originally Posted by Luv2Cruise

I'm quite sure her mind was made up about him before the first date. So now she cherishes her freedom because she knows what's in store the second they finish their engagement walkabout. She'll be the first woman to hone in on the man she wants and wait him out? Please. And if I'm not mistaken, William won't be proposing to the "Middletons," but to their daughter.

I don´t think that this is the case with William and Kate in fact it seems to me he is very reluctant to marry her, he is having a good time why spoil it.
But I believe in traditional families it is still the custom for a man to ask the father´s permission to marry the daughter. Of course in other families I suppose this would seem ridiculous but there are a lot of people who still believe in good manners and tradition.

[Mermaid1962]

I use "ladies room" in restaurants or hotels, and "washroom" in private homes. And no, I'm not pretentious: just polite.

Originally Posted by Menarue

Sorry language problem again, we don´t use the word toilet and ladies room sounds far too pretentious as does powder room etc etc. Upper classes here call it lavatory.
Loo is perfectly acceptable and one still hears spend a penny although it is far more expensive than that these days.

[wbenson]

Originally Posted by Menarue

But I believe in traditional families it is still the custom for a man to ask the father´s permission to marry the daughter. Of course in other families I suppose this would seem ridiculous but there are a lot of people who still believe in good manners and tradition.

Tradition? Yes. Good manners? Sorry, I don't think that asking "permission" to have a relationship with someone as if they're cattle falls under that category.

[Menarue]

Originally Posted by Mermaid1962

I use "ladies room" in restaurants or hotels, and "washroom" in private homes. And no, I'm not pretentious: just polite.

Mermaid this is purely cultural, in England the word toilet is considered lower class. Washroom sounds more of a place to take your laundry, but that is because we are talking about different countries. As we are talking about England and an English woman, Mrs Middleton, she is judged by English cultural standards, what is polite and completely acceptable in one country perhaps is not in another. No one would expect a person from another country to know these things and no one would think it impolite for this person to use these terms - but as I said Mrs Middleton is English.

[Elspeth]

Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade

This is what I don't believe. Don't overestimate the Royals' importance these days. In 1947, people held the institution up high, with the icon Queen Elizabeth (consort) who had a bond to the nation (mainly due to the war and kind of a mysterium as the BRF hadn't been exposed by the media yet). These days people care about their jobs, their mortgage, their homes, raising cost of living. Reality. They couldn't care less about Prince William or a royal wedding as they are especially annoyed by the lifestyle of the young royal generation. They do respect HM (who doesn't) and Charles' profile is improving but not to the degree that people think he's essential. These days it's own needs first because people feel let down by institutions in general, the government, politicians etc who give the impression to care more about their power than about their people. These are the vibes I get from the UK, a royal wedding at this stage would only be used for polemic, what does it cost as the taxpayer has to pay a fair share of the bill, follwed by the inevitable question do we still need them? Maybe it was different if the couple in question were charming the nation, winning people over because of their personalities (sorry to mention it but Diana comes to my mind) but they don't. It's rather turning people off to see Prince William who loves nightclubs but hasn't done anything substantial yet to justify any trust in his abilities getting married to Miss Middleton who is seen as a workshy social climber.

If people are well off themselves, they don't bother too much about their royals spending money publicly. But if they are not, they do and the BRF has already understood, see Charles's 60th Birthday celebrations. As low key as possible but inevitable, he can't change his birthday. But to set up William's wedding deliberately in the worst economic climate post-war? Don't think that would be a clever move unless the BRF is looking for controversy.

I'm afraid that unfortunately this is a very good synopsis of the reality of the situation. Interesting that just a few years ago William was seen as the great hope of the monarchy, and now look at the way things are. Considering how the William-Kate relationship has just dragged on and on with no real developments, and how the press and public have soured on both of them and are fed up in general with the vacuous nightclubbing and expensive and frequent vacations that seem to characterise all the younger royals, and also considering how badly the economic meltdown is hitting the UK, a royal wedding between two people who don't seem to have much to recommend them as representatives of the monarchy between them is unlikely to raise a lot of interest.

[Iluvbertie]

This is part of the reason why I suspect a wedding may be a number of years down the track. I think William won't get married until after he has had some time as a full-time royal and earnt the respect and love of the people in his own right. The hangover affect of the love people felt for him due to their love for his mother has largely been dissapated by his own actions.

[Parrothead]

As tired as I am of all of us (myself included) doing the guessing game of will they or won't they, there is something about the supposed trip to Birkhall (even though I have not seen it officially confirmed via photos, statement or court circular) that makes me think something could be in the works. I've been rather cynical about whether or not they will actually make it to the altar, but there is something about it this time that makes me think positive. Of course, the whole story could just be made up by the tabloids to fill a slow holiday news cycle, but my experience says no. I think Charles, Camilla and William are in Scotland as they seem to love it there, no matter how cold the weather must be. It would be nice to know for sure if Catherine/Kate is there also, but IF she is there, I have a sneaky suspicion she is staying inside or only in areas where the papparzzi can't find her via a telephoto lens.

I agree with so many of the posters that the relationship has dragged on and on, but I think younger people today are more aware of wanting to make a life-time commitment and are more cautious, hence many young people today dating for 5-6 years before making a decision about what to do. I think it is obvious to most of us that William appears to be a cautious type of person, especially when it comes to his love life.

Also, I would like to applaud Jo of Palentine for her well-spoken and thought out rational view on what COULD be going on behind palace doors. Again, a nice voice of reason amongst all of our guessing! Only time and sadly many, many more pages of speculation on this thread will tell.

Maybe tomorrow I will wake up and hear the good news via the morning TV shows?

[Skydragon]

Originally Posted by Menarue

But I believe in traditional families it is still the custom for a man to ask the father´s permission to marry the daughter. Of course in other families I suppose this would seem ridiculous but there are a lot of people who still believe in good manners and tradition.

It is still customary to ask the father for his daughters hand in marriage, with papa asking if she can be kept in the style to which she is accustomed! This of course happens before any proposal.

[Ella Kay]

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie

This is part of the reason why I suspect a wedding may be a number of years down the track. I think William won't get married until after he has had some time as a full-time royal and earnt the respect and love of the people in his own right. The hangover affect of the love people felt for him due to their love for his mother has largely been dissapated by his own actions.

I think this could definitely be a possibility. I also wonder, though, if getting married and settling down might also be seen as a means for him to rehab a slightly less sparkling image. If he's seen as a hard-working military husband (and eventually father), perhaps that might win him back some national goodwill?

[Duchess]

Originally Posted by Menarue

...But I believe in traditional families it is still the custom for a man to ask the father´s permission to marry the daughter. Of course in other families I suppose this would seem ridiculous but there are a lot of people who still believe in good manners and tradition.

i can't say that i know anyone whose parents were asked permission prior to the proposal and it's certainly not the custom anymore where i live. a generation ago maybe but not anymore. i do think it's nice but has gone out of fashion. maybe it's a class thing or practiced more in the UK and Europe.

[ghost_night554]

This is a long shot but if anything comes out of this trip I could see them getting engaged but not getting married for a while like hold off the wedding, my cousin did that, he was engaged for a few years before he actually had the wedding.As for William's "bad-boy" ways, I think he's definitely cut down on the partying, he wasn't nearly as bad as a few years ago although I think the Chinook incident cause alot of people to turn on him.

[Iluvbertie]

Originally Posted by Duchess

i can't say that i know anyone whose parents were asked permission prior to the proposal and it's certainly not the custom anymore where i live. a generation ago maybe but not anymore. i do think it's nice but has gone out of fashion. maybe it's a class thing or practiced more in the UK and Europe.

I have a colleague of mine (aged late 20s) who is getting married next week after living with her fiance on and off over the last 5 or more years.

The week before he finally proposed last July he rang her father and asked to take him for a beer. Over said beer he formally asked her father's permission to agree to him asking his daughter to marry him. Her father's comment was "Thank you for the courtesy of asking for her hand but it is her decision so you will have to ask her and if she says no she is no daughter of mine after all these years" and then proceeded to shout the bar to a drink to celebrate. She hadn't been asked at that stage remember but she was and she did say yes.

[Sunnystar]

Originally Posted by Duchess

i can't say that i know anyone whose parents were asked permission prior to the proposal and it's certainly not the custom anymore where i live. a generation ago maybe but not anymore. i do think it's nice but has gone out of fashion. maybe it's a class thing or practiced more in the UK and Europe.

I think it just depends on the family and the girl. It's not necessarily a cultural or class thing. My brother asked his wife's father for permission to marry last summer before he proposed.

[Mermaid1962]

I'd consider "toilet" just plain vulgar, as another poster has said. Makes a person think too much of what's done on it.

Thanks for explaining the context of your comments.

Originally Posted by Menarue

Mermaid this is purely cultural, in England the word toilet is considered lower class. Washroom sounds more of a place to take your laundry, but that is because we are talking about different countries. As we are talking about England and an English woman, Mrs Middleton, she is judged by English cultural standards, what is polite and completely acceptable in one country perhaps is not in another. No one would expect a person from another country to know these things and no one would think it impolite for this person to use these terms - but as I said Mrs Middleton is English.

[Idriel]

Originally Posted by Sister Morphine

You're basically accusing Kate of being a gold-digger (or in this case, a crown-chaser). I think unsubstantiated slurs like that do everyone a disservice.

None of us knows what is in Kate's heart. Is she with William because she'd love him even if he had not two nickels to rub together, or is she with him because he's richer than sin and the future King? We don't know that and it's patently rude to speculate on it, because it slurs her character and to this point, she's done nothing to warrant such baseless claims.

I think you are being a bit over-dramatic.

Kate's motivations for being and staying in the relationship are as much up for debate and scrutiny as any other aspect of their relationship. I would even say it's far more important than say, subjects like her work ethic.
Expressing doubts over her motivations is just as legitimate as any other form of criticism or praise expressed in these forums and just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it a slur.

I also don't see how such reserve can be called baseless. Their has been numerous articles relating allegedly rabidly socially ambitious attitudes both by Kate and her siblings and mother. How much of this you trust is at your discretion but that would certainly be a base.
To put things in perspective, Kate's supporters here have no trouble using positive articles to support their flattering view of the girl (i.e. when the Sun -that very trusty source- reported that Kate allegedly turned down a plane upgrade, some here used it as an indication of how down to hearth she is).

Similarly, some here have been saying their are convinced William loves Kate. Well, he hasn't come forward saying that or even called her his girlfriend. Shall we call such statement baseless claims?
If we are to only speculate about things Royal themselves have made statements on or about which we have firm knowledge of all the data, the Royal Forums might as well close shop immediately, because there won't be much to say.

At this point, we can only take the bits and pieces available to us and try to make a coherent image. Most of what is said here is 20% fact and 80% opinion, feelings, interpretation. Some will think the girl is the second coming of Christ, other will be a bit more critical. Nobody has the monopole on common sense or accuracy.

Until then, unless you have bullet-proof insider knowledge that proves that Kate isn't a social-climber, those who hold this opinion are entitled to it and don't have to see their beliefs put down so contemptuously (calling it a slur is contemptuous imo).

Originally Posted by ghost_night554

I think the Chinook incident cause alot of people to turn on him.

The Chinook thing was bad enough, although it could have passed for a lapse in judgement, but the information that came afterwards, the web of deceit William built to avoid taking responsibility, was the final straw to me. It was all just so dishonorable.
I had been over him as a person for years but now he will have to work overtime to ever earn my respect again.

[Luv2Cruise]

Those were his superiors who were playing the CYA game for allowing his little stunt.

Meanwhile, I think he'll live.

[ghost_night554]

True^ I'm a strong believer in everything happens for a reason so I think he's learned his lesson anyways as for Kate, the way I see it is we don't have alot of information on her but generally I find Kate to seem to be a nice enough girl, ok so she's made a few mistakes but we all know nobody in this family is perfect. We have no proof she's not a social climber and yet we have no proof she is, so it goes both ways, and I dont see us learning much more about her unless she become engaged to William.

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by Al_bina

All these mellifluous attempts to paint a meek image of Ms. Middleton are just lame.

For me all those hideous attempts to paint an image of Miss Middleton as a mere golddigger are just a bit too much on the asinine side.

[Menarue]

I don´t for a second believe that Kate is a gold digger, her family has made more money than her family had ever, for hundreds of years, dreamed of. They live in a house that was beyond their means until only a few years ago and it seems that their internet business Party Pieces is giving them a good income. I think that as far as money is concerned they are very self satisfied.
No, to me she is like those young girls going to Hollywood with stars in their eyes.
Instead of stars she has crowns, she has seen first hand how royalty are treated, they are bowed and scraped too even if they are minor members of the family and that can be very attractive to a young woman, even the fact that photographers follow around trying to get shots can be exciting - until the novelty wears off,
whereas real royalty don´t even notice.. In the meantime Mrs Middleton is going through that agony that the starlets mother´s go through, will she get the part?.
Usually the waiting period doesn´t run into years so it must be particularly agonising for her, also to be criticised herself for her very lower middle class origins, which is no fault of hers, can´t be changed and is very noticable to the upper class people in the royal circle, call it snobbishness or whatever you like,but it exists and forms a formidable barrier to marriage. This barrier may well be overcome and then the Middleton family will feel vindicated and perhaps their grandchild will not only be heir to Party Pieces but the throne of England.
BTW Idriel that Chinook incident finished me with William too.

[QUEENECE29]

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