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  #601  
Old 02-16-2009, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
william is dull, not dutiful.
Without labouring any further on the "dull" bit, what would make William more "dutiful" than he already is?
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  #602  
Old 02-16-2009, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by muriel View Post
Without labouring any further on the "dull" bit, what would make William more "dutiful" than he already is?
on the rare occasions he's out in public there is the impression that he'd rather be elsewhere and he sports the "refusal" attitude (i don't want to but eventually will have to) more than anyone else in royalty. ok, although i am not a psychiatrist it's quite clear where this and his disrespect for the media is coming from - but in the end it doesn't help convincing people to follow him and support him as their head of state.

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But lets not forget that (Diana notwithstanding), it took Charles a long time to get to this point. Similarly, I think it is unfair to expect William to have developed and pursued his interests to a similar level at this stage of his life... he will get there.
i doubt he will be given a similar amount of time. we have already arrived in times where people will ask questions and not blindly accept any male as a head of state because his last name is wales. as soon as the house of windsor will produce a monarch who is unwilling = unpopular = useless in the eyes of the public the whole institution will be in jeopardy. being royal is not god-given anymore since any commoner can become queen or queen consort these days so in the future there must be more to it than just a legitimation by birth.
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  #603  
Old 02-16-2009, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
on the rare occasions he's out in public there is the impression that he'd rather be elsewhere and he sports the "refusal" attitude (i don't want to but eventually will have to) more than anyone else in royalty. ok, although i am not a psychiatrist it's quite clear where this and his disrespect for the media is coming from - but in the end it doesn't help convincing people to follow him and support him as their head of state.
Firstly, William is seen rarely seen in public as he is usually on duty, as a member of the armed forces. He is not skiving, merely "on duty"

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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
there is the impression that he'd rather be elsewhere and he sports the "refusal" attitude (i don't want to but eventually will have to) more than anyone else in royalty
What mighty be a diffident public manner can hardly, IMO, be interpreted as not being dutiful. We are all entitled to form our own views, but "the impression", can only be an impression.

As regards his misttrust of the media, there is no doubt that in time he will start to manage the media in a more consummate manner. Its just a question of time.
  #604  
Old 02-16-2009, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
i doubt he will be given a similar amount of time. we have already arrived in times where people will ask questions and not blindly accept any male as a head of state because his last name is wales. as soon as the house of windsor will produce a monarch who is unwilling = unpopular = useless in the eyes of the public the whole institution will be in jeopardy. being royal is not god-given anymore since any commoner can become queen or queen consort these days so in the future there must be more to it than just a legitimation by birth.
He has as long as it takes to become King. Sure, certain sections of the media will wrote him off, just as they wrote of Charlws. Eventually, it was Charles' good work that brought the larger media establishment behind him, and I am sure hat is what will happen with William as well.

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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
being royal is not god-given anymore since any commoner can become queen or queen consort these days so in the future there must be more to it than just a legitimation by birth.
I am not sure how the actual mechanics of what you are suggesting work.
  #605  
Old 02-16-2009, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
I like the girl and I pity the way she lives her life right now, buried in Bucklebury when she had gone to university in the hope that one day the world would be open to her.
The World is open to her.
She has the money, the time on her hands, the independence. She has all the opportunities in the World and a thick Rolodex full of important names that would act as a sesame wherever she goes.

So it is obvious the way she lives her life is her choice and her choice only.
She is the one who chose not to have a career, she is the one who chose to put her boyfriend before herself (the reason she didn't want a demanding job -call that flexibility if you must- was because she wanted to be available for William), she is the one who chose not to pursue further education (now that would have been a non controversial, meaningful way to wait for an engagement, but she might have had to miss a couple of polo matches and club nights...), she is the one who is 'burying' herself in the country-side.
Even in the improbable case William asked that of her, could she not have grown a spine and told him she would live her life as she wanted and if he were not happy with that he could find himself another girl willing to deal with his baggage?

Chance is she loves her life right now and never had any other ambitions beside marry well, go on holidays a couple of times a years and occasionally look pretty at some social events. Based on what she has done (or rather didn't do) so far, it makes more sense than portraying her as a frustrated girl stringed along by her 'evil' boyfriend.
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Originally Posted by Ella Kay View Post
For all we know, the two of them could have some sort of private understanding at this point.
I am afraid a private understanding is worthless as it can be recanted at any time. Yeah, that would make William a cad but the first word that pops into my head when I think of him isn't gentleman.
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Originally Posted by muriel View Post
1) Replacing the monarch as head of state with an elected president (the usual alternative!) is not perceived by most British people as a better alternative, else we would have had a republic by now.
As D of M rightfully said, the Monarchy will never be seriously challenged during Elizabeth's lifetime. Charles' reign will be short so I don't see anything happening there either. Let's wait and see what happens during William's reign...
Quote:
2) The last aristocrat to marry into the royal family was Diana.... and we all know where that ended up!
And before Diana there was Philip and before that there was the Queen mother and before that there was Mary, etc.
Why put forward the one example of a disastrous royal/aristocratic bride and ignore the many examples of successful ones.
Diana was mentally and emotionally unbalanced. You can find women like that in any social classes.
Quote:
I do believe in the importance of bloodlines if I was buying a prized pig, but when it comes to human relationships, IMO it is people that matter, not their ancestry. If Kate and Will are happy, and she has the "right" qualities, I am sure she will make a good consort.
Yes but we are talking about a system based wholly on the principles of heredity, bloodline, birth-right, class system and privileges.
They have to bring more to the table that just being nice, normal, happy people. There are plenty nice, normal, happy people around, they don't get bowed at nor live a life of tax-funded privileges.
Quote:
3) As to comments about William and Kate being dull, I have to say that QE2 has probably been one of the dullest people on the public stage
People don't think the Queen is boring because they don't expect to be entertained by her.
She has never descended to the level of show-business stars with tell-alls, vindictiveness, public display of petulance, self-indulgence, drunkenness, abuse of her position, etc. She has never seek ' normality' and has always been utterly royal so is judged by other standards than her own son and grandsons.
Dignity, a flawless track record of public service and her ability of keeping an aura of mystery and mystique around her mean she has the respect and admiration of her people, so she can go on with her 'what do you do?' for another ten years without anybody complaining.
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  #606  
Old 02-16-2009, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Idriel View Post
I am afraid a private understanding is worthless as it can be recanted at any time.
A lot of people tend to believe that in any relationship between two people, the understanding between them was more important than any public proclamation!

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Originally Posted by Idriel View Post
And before Diana there was Philip and before that there was the Queen mother and before that there was Mary, etc.
Why put forward the one example of a disastrous royal/aristocratic bride and ignore the many examples of successful ones.
True, but since Philip entered the BRF over 60 years ago, the world has changed, and so have British society and social norms. There is far more mobility between classes, based on personal achievement, so I remain to be convinced about the validity of your point.

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Originally Posted by Idriel View Post
Yes but we are talking about a system based wholly on the principles of heredity, bloodline, birth-right, class system and privileges.
They have to bring more to the table that just being nice, normal, happy people. There are plenty nice, normal, happy people around, they don't get bowed at nor live a life of tax-funded privileges.
The system may have been based on principles of heredity, but royal families have often married outside the Euro gene pool successfully. Not looking that far afield, the Queen Mother was not royal. Similarly, the European examples of Mary in Denmark, Leitizia and going a little further back in time, Silvia is Sweden are just examples of how commoners marrying into royal households can and have been received well, and have gone on to make good consorts to their respective husbands. All these women earned the respect of their people through carrying out their duties diligently and with an unwavering commitment.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Idriel View Post
People don't think the Queen is boring because they don't expect to be entertained by her.
She has never descended to the level of show-business stars with tell-alls, vindictiveness, public display of petulance, self-indulgence, drunkenness, abuse of her position, etc. She has never seek ' normality' and has always been utterly royal so is judged by other standards than her own son and grandsons.
Dignity, a flawless track record of public service and her ability of keeping an aura of mystery and mystique around her mean she has the respect and admiration of her people, so she can go on with her 'what do you do?' for another ten years without anybody complaining.
Absolutely, and that is what one would hope the consort of William, whoever she may be, will do. Applying that to Kate, I can't see how she has put a foot wrong. IMO, she has never "descended to the level of show-business stars with tell-alls, vindictiveness, public display of petulance, self-indulgence, drunkenness, abuse of her position, etc"
  #607  
Old 02-16-2009, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by muriel View Post
A lot of people tend to believe that in any relationship between two people, the understanding between them was more important than any public proclamation!
That wasn't my point.
A relationship is easier to break-up than a marriage, especially when you are dating a future King.
He may love her for now (I am not convinced) but as long as she doesn't have a ring on her finger, her position isn't secure.
Quote:
There is far more mobility between classes, based on personal achievement, so I remain to be convinced about the validity of your point.
I can't see how the principles of meritocracy apply to a Royal, but even if it did, what personal achievement can Kate claim to 'deserve' social elevation? (I know how it sounds, I am just stretching your point)
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Not looking that far afield, the Queen Mother was not royal.
She was an aristocrat, she had a bloodline.
Quote:
Similarly, the European examples of Mary in Denmark, Leitizia and going a little further back in time, Silvia is Sweden. -snipped- All these women earned the respect of their people through carrying out their duties diligently and with an unwavering commitment.
How well these ladies were received and how respected they are is a matter of opinion. Just browsing trough their respective threads here in TRF will tell you that much.
Quote:
Applying that to Kate, I can't see how she has put a foot wrong. IMO, she has never "descended to the level of show-business stars with tell-alls, vindictiveness, public display of petulance, self-indulgence, drunkenness, abuse of her position, etc"
Actually many think she lives the typically self-indulgent lifestyle of a trust-fund baby, which is why she is more an object of derision these days than of respect.
Again, you are not just defined by what you don't do but by what you achieve too.
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  #608  
Old 02-16-2009, 04:54 PM
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I wonder if Feddie Windsor's engagement today will make William feel any added pressure to get engaged soon. I think Kate must despair at seeing the young members of William's family marring people they have been with for at least half the time that she has been with him.
  #609  
Old 02-16-2009, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Idriel View Post
Again, you are not just defined by what you don't do but by what you achieve too.
IMO, you are defined by the person you are, not what you have/haven't done!
  #610  
Old 02-16-2009, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by muriel View Post
...3)...I would be inclined to go for dull and boring rather than exciting!
i whole heartedly agree. we see where "excitement has gotten us in the past. i would much rather have someone that is quiet and discreet.
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  #611  
Old 02-16-2009, 07:10 PM
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Exactly. A severely handicapped person can still love and be loved and therefore have a worthwhile life.

There seems to be a creeping meritocracy where Miss Middleton is concerned.

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IMO, you are defined by the person you are, not what you have/haven't done!
  #612  
Old 02-16-2009, 07:11 PM
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Yes, completely. I don't think that the Windsors are in need of a "superstar." They need someone steady and stable--someone who can set a course and maintain it. This is something that I think Kate has in spades.

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i whole heartedly agree. we see where "excitement has gotten us in the past. i would much rather have someone that is quiet and discreet.
  #613  
Old 02-16-2009, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
IMO, you are defined by the person you are, not what you have/haven't done!
You beat me to it Skydragon. Hitler did quite alot, didn't he??
  #614  
Old 02-16-2009, 11:48 PM
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I suppose, but he had to be an evil man to begin with to "accompish" what he did.

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You beat me to it Skydragon. Hitler did quite alot, didn't he??
  #615  
Old 02-17-2009, 12:28 AM
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Let's leave Hitler out of this please.
  #616  
Old 02-17-2009, 03:05 AM
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Gladly.

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Let's leave Hitler out of this please.
  #617  
Old 02-17-2009, 04:00 AM
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Yes, completely. I don't think that the Windsors are in need of a "superstar." They need someone steady and stable--someone who can set a course and maintain it. This is something that I think Kate has in spades.
Well she has certainly showed she can wait, let us hope she doesn´t continue to be a doormat all her life, ready to be used when convenient.
Very convenient for William but not really the life anyone would want for a pretty, well educated girl like Kate.
  #618  
Old 02-17-2009, 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Idriel View Post
A relationship is easier to break-up than a marriage, especially when you are dating a future King.
He may love her for now (I am not convinced) but as long as she doesn't have a ring on her finger, her position isn't secure.
YOu are right, a relationship is easier to get out of than marriage. That siad, as I have previously said, I just do not see many 26-27 year olds get married these days, despite them having been together for 5-6 years. Couples these days tend to wait till they are around 30, though I suspect these two will probably get engaged next year.

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Originally Posted by Idriel View Post
She was an aristocrat, she had a bloodline.
Sure, she had a bloodline, though it may not have been a terribly regal one!

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Originally Posted by Idriel View Post
How well these ladies were received and how respected they are is a matter of opinion. Just browsing trough their respective threads here in TRF will tell you that much.
My view is that as a member of a royal family, your time horizons are slightly longer than those of say, politicians, who typically devote a lot of time and resource to managing the media on a daily basis. As long as the respective members of the royal families are doing their duties well and consistently, IMO one can't shouldn't be getting too excited by what some poeple on an internet forum are wittering on about!

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Originally Posted by Idriel View Post
Actually many think she lives the typically self-indulgent lifestyle of a trust-fund baby, which is why she is more an object of derision these days than of respect.
Again, you are not just defined by what you don't do but by what you achieve too.
And people are entitled to their opinions. The only point to make here is that there is little real information of what Kate does in the public domain, and those forming views should be aware that they are basing their opinions on imperfect information!

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Originally Posted by Idriel View Post
Again, you are not just defined by what you don't do but by what you achieve too.
I think a number of posters have already reacted to your statement above. The only point I would make here is that again, we are not really aware of Kate's achievements at Party Pieces, so any reactions based on achievements are unlikely to be based on sound information (GI-> GO!)
  #619  
Old 02-17-2009, 01:07 PM
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IMO, you are defined by the person you are, not what you have/haven't done!
It is impossible to separate the two.
Who you are will determine the choices you make in life and thus your actions. Similarly, some of the decisions you take will help shape your character (those character-defining moments).
People do not exist in a limbo, our minds and personality are indeed shaped by what we choose to do with our lives.

However, since I feel the discussion is veering towards whether Kate is a good person, I would like to point out that it's irrelevant to me whether she is sweet and friendly and normal, as I expect more from Royal, as I already have explained at length.
For the record, I have nothing against her as a private citizen.
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
They need someone steady and stable--someone who can set a course and maintain it. This is something that I think Kate has in spades.
May I ask you what make you think that?
I don't think she has committed in a long term to anything since graduating.
She couldn't even commit to a part-time job, what make you thin she will commit to a lifetime of service?
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  #620  
Old 02-17-2009, 02:03 PM
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I don't think she has committed in a long term to anything since graduating.
She couldn't even commit to a part-time job, what make you thin she will commit to a lifetime of service?
In terms of commiting long term, above all else, even the most avid of Kate haters would admit that she has remain committed to her boyfriend of a few years.
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