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  #561  
Old 02-13-2009, 07:37 PM
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  #562  
Old 02-13-2009, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
Why is this case any worse than Edward II, Richard II, Isabella of France, or Caroline of Brunswick?
The monarchs you are citing lived in very different times where a Monarchy was seen as the only possible political system (or at least the only one that would be likely to be accepted by a majority of people). So yes, people did accept that there would be bad monarchs and most of them didn't wish for the monarchy to end but hoped the next monarch would be better.
It is the same situation with Gordon Brown: just because a majority of people hates him and his government doesn't mean they wish Democracy to be abolished, they just wants his successor to do a better job.

The situation is different nowadays because people have less and less trouble imagining a Republican system replacing a Monarchy. It's been done elsewhere, and successfully, so why not?
Already, the younger generations is confused as to what role the Windsor still fulfill beside being ribbon cutters and jet-setters.
At some point there was a mystique and a sense of deference for people who embodied British history and a certain vision of Britain, and had a bloodline to show for it.
I don't believe Royals should be barred from marrying commoners, but when they do, these people should bring something really special to make up for their ordinary birth.

By seeking normality, seriously dating a girl with not a single outstanding quality or accomplishment, adding to his own personal failures and image problems, William is failing in the only role that is till being asked of him, imo, which is to embody a vision of Britain people can relate to yet respect and admire.
If he marries Kate and if that trend of marrying dull commoners perdues, the British people will start asking why they are funding or are being represented by a bunch of ordinary people playing dress-up.

As for the people who are arguing that a Royal marriage is a private matter (?!!?) and that the people should just mind their own business, I will just say that this kind of attitude contribute towards the demise of that institution. My opinion.
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Originally Posted by Ella Kay View Post
Those places are as much a part of the heritage of Britain as they are personal houses, and they're also money-makers as tourist draws. I suppose the royals are more like caretakers in that respect than homeowners. It's not like any of them could sell Clarence House to fund a ridiculous tiara habit or anything.
In addition to civil list you have to add the security costs, the costs of organising public duties, etc.
As for the Royal residences, the main reason they are able to enjoy them is because they are the Royal family.
If you want to have an idea of what this family really cost the taxpayer, try to look at it this way: should the monarchy be abolished, what would they be able to still claim theirs?
And that tourist attraction thing is a flawed argument, imo. People do not come to Britain because of the Windsors but because of the Palaces and Castles and all that Royal heritage.
The Queen doesn't do guided tours.
Would the Monarchy be abolished there would be even more tourist money to be made because all the Royal residences could be open all year round, not just when and where it's convenient for them.

Britain would just become like France, whose cultural heritage is still a huge tourist draw three centuries after they chopped Louis and M-A's head.
The history buffs would still visit whether there was an actual reigning family and the star-gazers will say: 'Oh look, that is the chair Queen Elisabeth II used to sit on' and that would be enough royal cachet for them.
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  #563  
Old 02-13-2009, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Idriel View Post
And that tourist attraction thing is a flawed argument, imo. People do not come to Britain because of the Windsors but because of the Palaces and Castles and all that Royal heritage. The Queen doesn't do guided tours. Would the Monarchy be abolished there would be even more tourist money to be made because all the Royal residences could be open all year round, not just when and where it's convenient for them.

Britain will just become like France, whose cultural heritage is still a huge tourist draw three centuries after they chopped Louis and M-A's head.
The history buff would still visit whether their was an actual family visiting or not and the star-gazer will say: 'Oh look, that is the chair Queen Elisabeth II used to sit on' and that would be enough royal cachet for them.
I'm sure there actually are some people who would visit Britain with queens as well as castles foremost in their mind, but even if a tourist isn't there solely for that purpose, they're certainly still showing up to pay the admission fee at these residences, and that money is helping to preserve the historical buildings. When I lived in London, I frequently saw queues outside BP during the period of the year when it was open to tourists.

I'm quite aware that HM's not showing them the china, thanks very much, but I do think that her presence is a draw. How else would you explain the people who gather to see her drive by on the way to the State Opening of Parliament? There's an added level of mystique to the British monarchy, IMO, because the throne is still inhabited. You don't get that at a place like Versailles -- it's not an example of living history the way that a place like Buckingham Palace is. It's just a museum. I've been to both, and I don't think you can compare the two. I think the palaces and sites in Britain would lose something about them if there was no longer someone wearing the crown.
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  #564  
Old 02-13-2009, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Ella Kay View Post
I'm sure there actually are some people who would visit Britain with queens as well as castles foremost in their mind, but even if a tourist isn't there solely for that purpose, they're certainly still showing up to pay the admission fee at these residences, and that money is helping to preserve the historical buildings. When I lived in London, I frequently saw queues outside BP during the period of the year when it was open to tourists.
I don't understand how this constitues a counter-argument to what I've just wrote.
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How else would you explain the people who gather to see her drive by on the way to the State Opening of Parliament?
Because she is a world-famous woman. People in France gather to see Sarkozy and his trophy wife or any other celebrity for the same reason.
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There's an added level of mystique to the British monarchy, IMO, because the throne is still inhabited. You don't get that at a place like Versailles -- it's not an example of living history the way that a place like Buckingham Palace is.
That doesn't translate into more money though as Versailles is a bigger tourist draw that Buckingham Palace or Windsor Castle. You may think the air is more rarefied if the family still lives there but if they didn't those attractions would very likely be more profitable.
To be clear, I do not think money only is a valid reason to abolish the monarchy.
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  #565  
Old 02-13-2009, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Idriel View Post
I don't understand how this constitues a counter-argument to what I've just wrote.
I'm not trying to counter-argue, Idriel. I'm just trying to discuss the topic at hand. I don't see this as a debate with a winner. We're all just having conversations here, and you and I obviously have incompatible opinions on this subject.
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  #566  
Old 02-13-2009, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Ella Kay View Post
I'm not trying to counter-argue, Idriel. I'm just trying to discuss the topic at hand. I don't see this as a debate with a winner. We're all just having conversations here, and you and I obviously have incompatible opinions on this subject.
I didn't want to come off as aggressive, Ella Kay.

By counter-argument, I just meant that I though, judging by your wording, that you were presenting a different approach or opinion on the subject. I just didn't see what was the difference between what you were saying and what I was saying.
And you are right, TRF doesn't distribute prizes for best Internet fights to the death (shall we lobby the mods about that?) so I never expect to win anything by debating. I don't even seek to change any one's mind. I just like to chat and exchange views.

Happy Valentine to all the members concerned.
Happy Valentine Kate. This year maybe...
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  #567  
Old 02-13-2009, 09:14 PM
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Thanks for the clarification, Idriel. It's difficult to tell sometimes when someone is merely being passionate or looking for a fight. Though if we did have those fight-to-the-death prizes, that distinction might go away completely.

As far as Valentine's Day and Kate goes, since we're speculating all over the place in this thread, what kinds of Valentine presents do you think Prince William buys for his favorite girl? Baubles and shiny things? More gun accessories? New wellies to wear out on a shoot?
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  #568  
Old 02-13-2009, 09:19 PM
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There you go ladies. Now back on topic please.
  #569  
Old 02-13-2009, 09:29 PM
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Have read previous posts as regards to the Monarchy and costs involved and would like to point out that Presidents in such countries as the US have security paid for their families and their homes likewise Presidential candidates/ex Presidents and their families at least with a monarchy you have only one family to pay for
  #570  
Old 02-13-2009, 10:01 PM
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Whew went back further and it seems the discussion has gotten pretty heated Oh well we dont have much to talk about in current events ectera This couple do seem to have kept out of the public view for a good while. Here is a Question for you all, many people have cited William as failing to defend Kate from media persecution as a sign of apathy Does the inclusion of her at his important events ( order of the garter getting his wings) not count as a statement by him that she is important in his life and is there to share what counts????? I only ask because some people seem to think that you meet/ announce/ marry whereas I think this may be a modern romance where there can be a very long time between meeting/dating/engagement/marriage. Will must be cautious after his parents disaster and what girl wouldnt look at the same and hesitate?? So again he has included her in the important events in his life why do peolple dismiss her???
( yes I would like to hear a rumour that she was learning languages/history/anything)
  #571  
Old 02-14-2009, 04:24 AM
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Where the private money that comes out of the private pockets of the royal family comes and came from is a bit of a mystery. Good investments, we have heard rumours of bad investments too, but there had to be money to invest in the first place. The civil list until fairly recently extended to more than just the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh, before that it was very generous to quite a few family members.
I remember a story about Queen Victoria getting a very large legacy from a someone and she accepted it, usually the royal family don´t accept gifts, but it seems on occasion they do.
I am still trying to figure out how the Queen mother was supposed to be in so much debt and the Queen had to bail her out, but Queen Elizabeth managed to leave all her grandchildren and greatgrandchildren millions, there must be a logical explanation for that.
Actually when Edward VIII abdicated there was an inventory to see what could be called private property so that Edward could be compensated and have enough to live in luxury for the rest of his life. I think Sandringham was one house that was considered private and Balmoral but of that I am not quite certain but whichever properties they were, King George bought them off his brother to give him an income but I believe it was this crisis that really got the family thinking about what they actually owned and what belonged to the crown.
  #572  
Old 02-14-2009, 05:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Idriel View Post
The situation is different nowadays because people have less and less trouble imagining a Republican system replacing a Monarchy. It's been done elsewhere, and successfully, so why not?
Can you post a link where a serious survey that more and more Britons (or Danes or Norwegians or Spaniards...) tend to want a republic replacing their monarchies? I can't recall any such survey results, so where's the proof behind your statement?

As for: "It's been done elsewhere" one should see the historical background of WWI and why revolutions ended a lot of monarchies. I doubt we will see a lot of revolutions in EU-countries in the next decades. As for democratic changes of the form of the democracy - we see how difficult it is to change the succession laws in some countries. And in that case we have the political wish of all people involved to add the idea of gender equality into the constitutional succession laws. But where will one find the needed majorities for a change of constitution to abolish the monarchy? Politicians tend to want to rule in a stable and secure state - they fear nothing more than uproar and revolutionary ideas. Abolishing a monarchy would mean to open the gates and let the flood in - I can't see 75% or only 66% of parlamentarians wanting that! People normally don't want change - no matter who William is going to marry, they will still want him as king. Just recall how the establishment let Diana drop like a hot potato after she had dared to mention a change in the line of succession in her "Panorama"-interview.And you believe that this same establishment won't do anything to make sure republican ideas don't win ground in the political system of Britain. Come on!
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  #573  
Old 02-14-2009, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Idriel View Post
If he marries Kate and if that trend of marrying dull commoners perdues, the British people will start asking why they are funding or are being represented by a bunch of ordinary people playing dress-up.
There are a great many dull Princesses and aristocrats about and I don't think many Britons would welcome another 'celeb' type into the RF.

Britons are too apathetic to push for a republic, even if there were that many that wanted one. I haven't seen any polls to suggest even the majority of the 1000 normally asked favour such a thing!
  #574  
Old 02-14-2009, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
. Just recall how the establishment let Diana drop like a hot potato after she had dared to mention a change in the line of succession in her "Panorama"-interview.
That was a big mistake on Diana´s part, I think she was dropped more for being so disloyal to her husband, it was a really terrible thing to do. She wasn´t calling for a Republic she wanted her son to take his father´s place, it was a nasty piece of spite and I think the public as well as the establishment recognized it. If she hadn´t died so tragically and been promoted to a saint these words would have haunted her for a long time.
  #575  
Old 02-14-2009, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
Can you post a link where a serious survey that more and more Britons (or Danes or Norwegians or Spaniards...) tend to want a republic replacing their monarchies? I can't recall any such survey results, so where's the proof behind your statement?
You have misread my post (unsurprisingly). I said more and more people have no trouble imagining a Britain with no monarchy. If you can't see the nuance, well, let's drop the subject.
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
There are a great many dull Princesses and aristocrats about and I don't think many Britons would welcome another 'celeb' type into the RF.
Indeed, there are a lot a dull aristocrats (William being a prime example). At least they have an interesting ancestry so I consider it a bit better than a dull commoner.
And I think we already had that discussion about a 'celeb' into the RF a couple of pages ago.
Quote:
Britons are too apathetic to push for a republic, even if there were that many that wanted one.
Briton are apathetic, I agree. I personally don't think that's a good sign when people are indifferent to something.
It doesn't really matter when you have the Queen who is hugely respected, but I don't know about what will happen with her descendants, judging by how they behave and how they are perceived. There is a fine line between apathy and annoyance and then contempt and then anger.

Some here might think the British monarchy is safe no matter what because it's in the British psyche or something... well there has been many instance of growing Republican sentiments in recent British history and none of them coincided with a revolution but were because the British public felt the monarch didn't fulfill a role anymore (under Queen Victoria, after the abdication crisis, etc.). Talking to younger people is also quite eye-opening.
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Old 02-14-2009, 01:10 PM
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Indeed, there are a lot a dull aristocrats (William being a prime example). At least they have an interesting ancestry so I consider it a bit better than a dull commoner.

I have to agree with this. I am afraid that this Queen just might be the end of the line and it makes me very sad. Perhaps Britons are too apathetic to change but Britain is changing rapidly, there are so many Britains now that don´t have that native British mentality and they are growing in number every day. I think it is time for the future generations to earn some respect and show the advantages of having a monarchy instead of spending their time and money in nightclubs and other frivolous occupations. By that I don´t mean to visit an occasional hospital but really get down to being royal and when it comes to choose a partner choose someone who knows what being a royal is.
Someone once said to Queen Sophie of Spain that she was a very professional Queen and she was not pleased and said the following "I was a Queen in my mother´s womb", you can put whatever interpretation you please to these words.
  #577  
Old 02-14-2009, 01:10 PM
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Let me come to the point.Question: Do you think Kate-if she finally becomes a princess/Queen-will ever be loved by the people as much as Diana?
  #578  
Old 02-14-2009, 01:24 PM
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The answer is no. Besides, Diana wasn´t as loved as you may think, she died young, she was pretty and it was a tragedy and that certainly made people believe they loved her and any foreigner seeing the mass hysteria at her funeral would think she was the most loved person in Britain, she wasn´t. In fact when I think of the time when she stared at the TV camera with those very made up soulful eyes and said she wanted to be thought of as the Queen of hearts it makes me squirm with embarassment as it did at the time. It is not the kind of theatrics one expects from an English aristocrat.
If she hadn´t died so tragically young I am sure she would have been forgotten very quickly, or perhaps the kind of "forgotten" that Sarah Ferguson is enjoying.
  #579  
Old 02-14-2009, 01:32 PM
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I have to agree with this. I am afraid that this Queen just might be the end of the line and it makes me very sad. Perhaps Britons are too apathetic to change but Britain is changing rapidly, there are so many Britains now that don´t have that native British mentality and they are growing in number every day.
As I tried to tell it is not so easy to get rid of a monarchy if you have one - it can be that more and more people (how many more each year?) can imagine to live in something else but a monarchy but that won't change a thing in fact. What can change it is the will of the political elite and there I don't see any change of heart because a monarchy has certain advantages a presidential democracy hasn't. Soap Operas included. But getting rewards in form of membership in historical orders or being elevated to the nobility helps as well. So really, I don't see any change on the horizon - this is just wishful thinking of those who would want the Royals to be "Royals" after their own hearts.
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  #580  
Old 02-14-2009, 01:49 PM
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Let me come to the point.Question: Do you think Kate-if she finally becomes a princess/Queen-will ever be loved by the people as much as Diana?
I think that there is a thread about this some where already but anyway I personally don’t think that Diana was as loved as some think (like to believe?). There was a lot of hype surrounding her both during her life and then when she died but I don’t think that there will ever be anything like that again. As much as the media have the constant search for the “New Diana” I don’t think anyone is all that interested in taking on the role.
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