William and Kate: engagement and relationship rumours and musings 2009

[Menarue]

As for cultural interests, I will repeat the same thing as I have said about William: show me a single picture of Kate anywhere near a cultural institution. The only instance I ever heard about her doing something high-brow was a sighting of her giggling wildly during a Pinter play (that old comic genius).
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Idriel, you have just made me spill my coffee.....

 

[Luv2Cruise]

It is her right as anyone, man or woman, to choose to do or not do whatever they please. Since when does Kate Middleton, private citizen, have to submit her life's hopes and dreams and career plans to anyone for approval, especially those who have no clue about how she really lives her life or who she really is as a person.

To criticize and judge someone so very bitterly, especially someone who is a complete public mystery, says more about the ones doing the criticizing than the one who ALLEGEDLY does nothing yet remains silent in the face of this very unfair onslaught. I'm quite sure William's immediate family can commiserate and think highly of her in at least that one regard.

The women's movement was not about condemning a woman because SHE DOES NOT CHOOSE TO SEEK A PROFESSIONAL CAREER OR WORK OUTSIDE OF HER HOME, it was about women having the ability to have CHOICES about how she lives her life, among other things. I dare say that one would be attacked worse than Kate if they were to criticize some random woman for daring to become the top of her profession yet remain unmarried and childless. People have a right to choose the path in life that makes them happiest. If Kate Middleton wants only to be married and have children and work in her parents' business until that happens, I can think of worse things to which to aspire than wife and mother.

 

[Skydragon]

Jackie Kennedy worked before she became Mrs. Kennedy at a time when she could very easily have not have done. JFK was not that well-known when they met, he had just started his Senate campaign. Moreover she had to start her marriage as a political wife, deal with a husband who suffered a horrible illness (Addison's disease) and face serious fertility problems that resulted in miscarriages and a stillbirth.

We have very different opinions on Kate, you choose to believe she loves William, IMO she loves his position much more....

JO worked as a society photographer for one publication, for a short time, hardly a go getting career girl. Many women suffered fertility problems, miscarriages and still births back then.

 

[Skydragon]

I chose to believe she doesn't because there isn't the slightest hint that she does.
If she had been fluent in foreign languages it would have been mentioned in one of those glowing Hello style reports that were the norm at the beginning (and still are, in Hello obviously).
I mean, we know she was good in sports at school, that she was bullied, what she did on a gap year, etc. but she somehow manages to be multilingual without anybody noticing? I don't think so.
As for cultural interests, I will repeat the same thing as I have said about William: show me a single picture of Kate anywhere near a cultural institution. The only instance I ever heard about her doing something high-brow was a sighting of her giggling wildly during a Pinter play (that old comic genius).

CDE seems to have flattened that.

YWhat you call freedom I call a rot personally.

Or a strong personality deciding, for the moment to have her cake and eat it. To state her freedom, her choices are 'rot' is unfair and over the top, unless you know her, know all about her and can state with 100% certainty that she is the one waiting for William, not a joint decision by two mature people. One persons idea of Freedom of choice can be 100% different from anyone elses.

This is definitely not a feminist position, just look at Leticia in Spain or any other royal consort.Those things haven't changed much in some social circles. The major difference is that in addition to social graces, these women are expected to have careers and achievements of their own (at least until motherhood).My opinion also.

But this is not any other Royal Family we are talking about, in every country they have a different way of life, (we after all do not throw Donkeys or Goats out of Church buildings), so why should the British follow anothers way. In the same way that the American ideal is rarely the British ideal, the UK would I believe have trouble accepting an unmarried mother as with the Norwegian CP. When lauding the European Princesses, it is worth remembering that not all of them were seen as acceptable, whether they had jobs/careers before they met their prince or not. There is another difference, they had the opportunity to have lives before they did meet.

 

[Skydragon]

---snipped----

although I agree 100%

The women's movement was not about condemning a woman because SHE DOES NOT CHOOSE TO SEEK A PROFESSIONAL CAREER OR WORK OUTSIDE OF HER HOME, it was about women having the ability to have CHOICES about how she lives her life, among other things. I dare say that one would be attacked worse than Kate if they were to criticize some random woman for daring to become the top of her profession yet remain unmarried and childless. People have a right to choose the path in life that makes them happiest. If Kate Middleton wants only to be married and have children and work in her parents' business until that happens, I can think of worse things to which to aspire than wife and mother.

The debate here is whether it harms a child if the parent does not stay at home to look after it. Whether she does or not, it is now her right to decide and not be dictated too.

 

[Menarue]

To criticize and judge someone so very bitterly, especially someone who is a complete public mystery, says more about the ones doing the criticizing than the one who ALLEGEDLY does nothing yet remains silent in the face of this very unfair onslaught. I'm quite sure William's immediate family can commiserate and think highly of her in at least that one regard.

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I really don´t know about her being such a public mystery, not in England any way, what is going on in her head is a mystery though. I hope you are not speaking for the royal family when you say you are sure they think highly of her even it is only in one regard.

 

[Lady Ann]

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The difference, IMO, is the view of an American towards someone who they feel was famous. But famous for what, being the wife of a assassinated president, dressing well? JO can be compared to Kate, purely because neither had done anything of note before becoming involved with a well known man. You say she married for love as if Kate does not love William, but only a woman in love would put up with all the negative stories, pursuit and lack of privacy that seems to be visited on Kate.[/quote]


While I am an American of Itailin, British, and German descent. I believe that most things posted her are just that a veiw of what we think is famous or not. what should or should not be news ...
(JO was educated at selective schools such as the Holton-Arms School in Washington (1942-1944) and Miss Porter's School in Farmington, Connecticut (1944-1947). When she made her society debut in 1947, a Hearst columnist dubbed Jacqueline "Debutante of the Year".
She spent her first two years of college at Vassar in Poughkeepsie, New York, and spent her junior year (1949–1950) in France at the University of Grenoble and The Sorbonne in a program through Smith College. Upon returning home to the United States, she transferred to The George Washington University in Washington, D.C., graduating in 1951 with a Bachelor of Arts degree in French Literature.)" Wiki" She also worked and was well know for other things besides being JFK's widow she was the Frist Lady of the US and burried two children and raised two who servied this may not hold much gul for someone not from the US but it is my opinion that she did much more then Kate has done YET. My statement about her marring for love was in No way saying that Kate does not love William. I believe that she does. In ways I agree with you that they can be comparied for style icon and just being linked to a man, but what I was saying is that JO had done other things.and yes .. she Married her famous man sat by his side in his duties and death. Maybe one day Kate will do the same but for now she has not ... IMHO may my opinions not offend anyone ...

 

[Idriel]

Vanity Fair mentioned during her gap year she spent three months
in Florence learning Italian and Art History at the British Institute. And it is possible, IMO pretty likely she continued her Italian course at St. Andrews. In the first two years part of her degree program has her takes classes outside of her major, taking Italian would make sense, she already had decent grasp of it from living in Italy for three months,it would be useful in her art history course and her parents probably pushed it.

While I can't prove she's fluent in Italian, I suspect she speaks it somewhat decently and I also suspect she speaks another language (French mostly likely) somewhat from her years at boarding school.

I did know about her dabbling with Italian (that is what I meant by 'what she did on her gap year') but I didn't think it any relevance because of the short duration. She wouldn't have to have a strong grasp of Italian just to stay for three months because she was among other British students and from the reports I have read about her stay none of them mentioned her becoming fluent.
Many youngsters do a short language initiation like that and it leads to nothing. Same with French language: many of my British friends had to study French for several years at school but they didn't pursue it afterwards and speak appalling French (when at all). Again, we know she was an average student who was good at sports. If she spoke French it would have filtered out.
My point is still the same, if she had done more than dabble in languages and had a serious commend of a foreign language, it would have been public knowledge by now. Imo.

But this is not any other Royal Family we are talking. When lauding the European Princesses, it is worth remembering that not all of them were seen as acceptable, whether they had jobs/careers before they met their prince or not. There is another difference, they had the opportunity to have lives before they did meet.

I wasn't lauding any other European princesses. My mentioning Letitia was to illustrate my point that being a royal consort isn't a very 'feminist' position. Personally I can't see what's so different about what Leticia and Camilla or Philip do.

It is her right as anyone, man or woman, to choose to do or not do whatever they please. Since when does Kate Middleton, private citizen, have to submit her life's hopes and dreams and career plans to anyone for approval, especially those who have no clue about how she really lives her life or who she really is as a person.

I think you are confused about the purpose of this discussion.
We are discussing her suitability for the public role of Princess of the UK. Kate the private citizen is a non-issue and if she split with William tomorrow I would not be following her life or expressing any kind of judgements or care about what she does or doesn't do. When I am talking about Kate, I am talking about Kate the possible future bride of William.
There are information out there and I will form an opinion based on them. You do the same: you've never met her nor know more than me about her but you think she is lovely and praise her very enthusiatically. Similarly you were very critically of Chelsy (I am not trying to pit them aginst each other, just point out it's easy to form opinions on people you've never met)

To criticize and judge someone so very bitterly, especially someone who is a complete public mystery, says more about the ones doing the criticizing

Keep the personal attacks at bay thank you. And Kate isn't a complete mystery, there are plenty of information about her.

The women's movement was not about condemning a woman because she does not choose to seek a professional career or work outside of her home, it was about women having the ability to have choices about how she lives her life, among other things. (I edited the yelling)

I agree wholeheartedly.
Kate is free to make all the choices she want. And I am free to think the choices she make makes her unsuitable as a prospective royal bride. And you are free to disagree.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

I think you are confused about the purpose of this discussion.
We are discussing her suitability for the public role of Princess of the UK. Kate the private citizen is a non-issue and if she split with William tomorrow I would not be following her life or expressing any kind of judgements or care about what she does or doesn't do. When I am talking about Kate, I am talking about Kate the possible future bride of William.

Maybe that's what you are talking about and what you want to discuss here. But this is not the purpose of this discussion: it's about engagement rumours and musings, not about Catherine Elizabeth Middleton's character.
Once she has married William and found her own public role as a Princess of the UK, IMHO anybody may dissect the "public servant" Catherine Elizabeth to his or her heart's delight. At the moment what's happening is the character assassination of a private citizen because she is a quiet, discreet person who has no interest in revealing all to people who are only interested in her because of her boyfriend.

Ah, and BTW: there are people who will check her suitablity to become a Royal bride once William wants to marry her. I have no doubt that by then HM, the Duke of Edinburgh and the Prince of Wales know enough of her to make this assessment and if they will be content, so will I be.

There are information out there and I will form an opinion based on them.

Yes, that's alright, but just as a counter example I didn't spend 3 months a piece in an English-speaking country and now only "dabble" in English. Italian is not so difficult if you learned French or Latin in school (did she? Do we know?) Knowledge of French and Italian has been a fixed point at the curriculum for young ladies for centuries and what better language is there to learn for a future history of Art-student than Italian?

Plus: the idea that one of those youngster "Royal reporters" would ever find out if Catherine in private corresponds eg with Italian friends in their language or reads books in Italian is utmost ridiculous. Why should she not? A lot of people I know are fascinated by the Italian lifestyle and learn the language purely for their own pleasure. Look, this young lady is an academic who lived for a time in Italy. Why is it so unbelievable that she might in private be well able to understand Italian? Only because she dates a man who is sometimes appearing to be a stupid oaf?

 

[Amelia]

My point is still the same, if she had done more than dabble in languages and had a serious commend of a foreign language, it would have been public knowledge by now. Imo.

Can I ask why you think that? Are Kate’s A-level subjects and results public knowledge, I have never really read about them but to be honest I have never really looked? I have only heard of her being sporty and a good student in school, other than that nothing at all. The same with St Andrews, nothing much about her academically there either, but again I have never really looked that hard for it. Perhaps she speaks another language, perhaps she doesn’t but I don’t think it is something that the press - be they the gushing Hello or not - would know about, especially when I think of the Danish media who had poor Mary fluent in Danish long before she even started lessons.

 

[muriel]

At the moment what's happening is the character assassination of a private citizen because she is a quiet, discreet person who has no interest in revealing all to people who are only interested in her because of her boyfriend.

Well said, JoP!

It is amazing how carried away one can get when we know so little about Kate. There is relatively little "fact" in the public domain about the life of Kate Middleton - just an awful lot of speculation by the media about who she is and what she does. Based on this "imperfect" information, any judgements about her suitability as a future consort for Will are quite likely to be flawed, IMO. As we know, the true interest of the media is in selling newspapers, so they first built up the image of Kate as the perfect English rose, and then turned against her when she took steps to prevent her harassment by the paparazzi, and when she did not put a foot wrong in the public eye. Call my response cynical, but that is how I see it.

 

[muriel]

My point is still the same, if she had done more than dabble in languages and had a serious commend of a foreign language, it would have been public knowledge by now......And Kate isn't a complete mystery, there are plenty of information about her.

I fail to see the relevance of the point as to whether she speaks foreign langauages or not. Nice, but not exactly a prerequisite.

.......And Kate isn't a complete mystery, there are plenty of information about her.

.... all of which emanates from the press speculating baout her. Little hard known fact is known, as would be the case for a private citizen.

 

[Menarue]

Speaking French and Spanish made her very welcome when she visited the countries where they spoke these languages, she was a great asset to her husband besides being very decorative. A bit of culture comes in handy it has to be said.

 

[Mermaid1962]

Absolutely spot on! By complaining about the way that she was harassed, she's shown the media that she's not their toy; and they don't like that!

As we know, the true interest of the media is in selling newspapers, so they first built up the image of Kate as the perfect English rose, and then turned against her when she took steps to prevent her harassment by the paparazzi, and when she did not put a foot wrong in the public eye.

 

[Amelia]

I actually think what happened it just the way things go. The ‘she’s so wonderful’ stories will only sell for so long, eventually people want controversy and drama, so that what they give us. If they do get engaged I think it will turn around again for a while and she will be wonderful again but it will only last a short while before the trouble in paradise articles begin.

 

[iakynthi]

I'm sure we shouldn't even bother to compare Kate to Jackie.But one thing I'm 1000% sure about is that Kate will never be the new Diana (even if they finally get married...)...No way:it seems this girl only cares about clothes,clubs/nightlife and her Prince,of course...

 

[Skydragon]

.--- snipped ---- but it is my opinion that she did much more then Kate has done YET. .

I'm sure that when Kate gets to the end of her life, she will have done more than she has now. As a 20 something, JO had done very little, IMO. (Wiki has its plus points, )

 

[4Pam]

Comparing Kate to Jackie is like comparing her to the Queen. Different times different women. Like you all have said the media's interest is to sell papers not to paint Kate in the brightest color that we all would like to see.

 

[HRH Bella]

The Media is given money to follow them and say things about them you should only trust what comes from William and His Family .

 

[Mermaid1962]

And art, and photography, and the family business...

No way:it seems this girl only cares about clothes,clubs/nightlife and her Prince,of course...

 

[Mermaid1962]

And then the Baby Watch, and then the cooing over what wonderful parents they are, and then the stories about how they're bored with each other...

 

[Little_star]

3 months in Italy is hardly an indication that she is some sort of Italian speaking whizz kid. IMRIC Scottish degrees run along the same sort of lines as English degrees and you don't just "pick up" subjects as you do in the US.

St. Andrews does offer an art history degree with Italian, but it have NEVER once been mentioned anywhere online that she studied this programme, it's always been described as a straight-forward art history degree.

Moreover, students who combine degrees with a lanugage usually study abroa. I know people who studied subjects like law and business who ended up abroad as a result of the language they offered. The ERASMUS programme, which is available to all EU students is an option Kate did not follow.

 

[Menarue]

I could never compare Jacquie Bouvier with Kate, or I should say Kate Middleton with Jacquie Bouvier. Jacquie was born with class with a capital C. She had impeccable manners and was at ease whatever the occasion, a state visit, receiving guests at the White House, accompany her husband and even the unthinkable occasion of attending her assassinated husband´s funeral with such dignity that she earned the respect of the whole world.
She was highly educated, attended the Sorbonne, her French and Spanish were not of the schoogirl variety, she was not only beautiful she was an asset to the Presidency.
She was a young woman too but that didn´t make her giggle or act silly in public.
Also she had been a photographer and understood the photographers wanting to take her picture and I doubt if she ever complained about them doing their job.
Goodness, I had almost forgotten, Kate had said she was a photographer, or aspiring photographer so she should have a little sympathy for these people who were just doing their job and not make a formal complaint, or at least if they bothered her too much just kept out of their way. She must have realised that her complaint would mean her pedestal would begin to crumble.... Jacquie and Kate, no way, there is absolutely no comparison.

 

[Skydragon]

JO was born in 1929, a totally different era. many upper class women of that age, in the UK, traveled, learned to speak different languages, paint, embroider etc. They were fashioned to make interesting wives, now Kate has many more options. We don't know that she hasn't continued her language skills, we don't know that she isn't studying with the OU.

JO was 24 when she became engaged to JFK, 32 when he became President and she became better known to people outside the USA. Plenty of time for Kates star to shine!

 

[Idriel]

Maybe that's what you are talking about and what you want to discuss here.

Not just me. The ongoing conversation always comes back to that question: Is she the right one for William? Just browse the thread.

At the moment what's happening is the character assassination of a private citizen because she is a quiet, discreet person who has no interest in revealing all to people who are only interested in her because of her boyfriend.

How do you know she is quiet and discreet and not scheming and bidding her time until she gets the big prize? You don't, it's just the impression she makes on you based on what you know of her.
There is the mistaken view, imo, that people who are critical of her are animated by sinister purposes such as jealousy, hatred, bitterness, etc. Then play tell, what are the motivations of those who pour heaps of praise on her? They are never accused of being over-enthusiastic or sycophantic. If we don't know enough to form a proper opinion then it should go both way, no?
I just happen to have a different opinion and Kate makes a different impression on me than on you. That's all there is to it and we should be able to agree to disagree without questioning the poster character.

Ah, and BTW: there are people who will check her suitablity to become a Royal bride once William wants to marry her. I have no doubt that by then HM, the Duke of Edinburgh and the Prince of Wales know enough of her to make this assessment and if they will be content, so will I be.

The same exact people who decided Diana and Fergie were suitable...
Regardless of what opinions these people hold that will not stop me from having my own.

Look, this young lady is an academic who lived for a time in Italy.

I would not call Kate an academic: she has an undergraduate degree, like most people her age in Europe where education is cheap. Academics have at least a graduate degree.

I fail to see the relevance of the point as to whether she speaks foreign langauages or not. Nice, but not exactly a prerequisite.

It was part of an ongoing conversation about how cultured Kate is. Speaking several major languages is an invaluable asset for anyone, but even more if you are a first lady or a similar position.

.... all of which emanates from the press speculating baout her. Little hard known fact is known, as would be the case for a private citizen.

All? No.
There are hard facts out there, verifiable information, biographical details, school and university friends (with real names) who have openly spoke about her, pictures (they don't tell the whole story but there are not speculation). Her employment history is well known apart from what exactly she does now (if anything) with her parents. Her former boss telling that she wanted a non demanding job so she could see her boyfriend would also be reliable info, etc.
Of course alongside that there are speculative articles that one choose to believe or not (if you have followed my post it's pretty obvious I am not so naive to swallow things whole) and opinion pieces one may agree or disagree with.

I am also confused by one thing: the same people who say that Kate has no privacy are the ones who claim she is a total mystery. They also claim she is hounded but also able the keep whole parts of her life (conveniently, the parts where she does meaningful things) hidden and secret. I think this is totally possible now she is in the country but how did she manage that in London with all those paps and prying journalists harassing her?
Well, of course anybody is free to hold that position but I just don't find it very consistent.


Lastly, thank you Little Star, your posts are always very informative.

 

[Skydragon]

There is the mistaken view, imo, that people who are critical of her are animated by sinister purposes such as jealousy, hatred, bitterness, etc. Then play tell, what are the motivations of those who pour heaps of praise on her? They are never accused of being over-enthusiastic or sycophantic.

I can only speak for myself but unless I know to the contrary that a person was/is horrible (IMO) then it is better to see the good in them and at least give them a chance. When people have complained about some of my posts in the BRF threads, many are because they have read them in a different manner than was intended. When posters read through this thread, the spiteful, nasty, mean spirited remarks from some posters come across as 100% jealousy based on a lack of information. If we don't know then clearly she isn't, doesn't, can't, won't, etc. (Not aimed at anyone)

Her former boss telling that she wanted a non demanding job so she could see her boyfriend would also be reliable info, etc.

I don't believe that was quite the way Belle put it, my recollection was that she needed to have a job that was flexible. I have two employees that asked for the same consideration.

I am also confused by one thing: the same people who say that Kate has no privacy are the ones who claim she is a total mystery. They also claim she is hounded but also able the keep whole parts of her life (conveniently, the parts where she does meaningful things) hidden and secret. I think this is totally possible now she is in the country but how did she manage that in London with all those paps and prying journalists harassing her?

Having privacy is to be able to shop till you drop without the fear of it appearing in TRF's threads, to have a bad hair day without it becoming major news and everyday things like that. A privacy the majority of you enjoy, I presume? She is hounded whenever she goes out, her friends are hounded for details of her life and yes when in the confines of her home, where ever it is, she could if she wished practise the dance of the seven veils, lap dance or study, study, study and none of it will be known! Do we know a great deal about her - NO, IMO.

 

[Amelia]

it seems this girl only cares about clothes

Could Kate really be described as someone who cares only about clothes? I mean she has been wearing the same boots since about 2006, brings out the same summer dresses year after year, rarely wears anything other than her trusty black and white and is accused as dressing like a middle aged woman.

 

[Mara Jade]

Kate is a very smart girl; she keeps herself to herself, and the press hate it. After all, their ideal royal is still Diana who used and abused the power of the press for her own ends. We have all seen how ultimately destructive that relationship was, and Kate is wise to avoid them. If she had something to say it would be said to those who matter, not a lot of leeches on expense accounts.

 

[Ella Kay]

Very good points, Mara -- I think Kate's discretion when it comes to dealings with the media says a lot about the kind of princess she would be should she and William get married.

 

[Menarue]

JO was born in 1929, a totally different era. many upper class women of that age, in the UK, traveled, learned to speak different languages, paint, embroider etc. They were fashioned to make interesting wives, now Kate has many more options. We don't know that she hasn't continued her language skills, we don't know that she isn't studying with the OU.

JO was 24 when she became engaged to JFK, 32 when he became President and she became better known to people outside the USA. Plenty of time for Kates star to shine!

We can only hope, but then she hasn´t nabbed the prince yet.