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  #1401  
Old 10-10-2008, 09:44 AM
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If you canīt understand plain English then it is not my fault, my reasons have been set out more than once and I think that most people, if they agree with my views or not, understand them. I respect other peopleīs views if they are polite and rational and have reasoning behind them. What I donīt respect is the view that Kate Middleton will make a wonderful Queen of England because she works hard at her parentsī .com party supplies company, that she would looks wonderful in a tiara, that she is the personification of a maidenīs dream to be a princess etc . I look for substance and until now I havenīt seen any in her. If you have seen some reasonable arguments then please set them out so that I can either agree with them or not.
You like Kate, that is up to you. I donīt dislike her I just donīt want her as Queen of England as I donīt think that she is suitable. There is nothing else I can add, it is useless to say anything else as it seems to be falling on deaf ears. There have been other Kate supporters that have put forward reasonable arguments and I have had to admit they have some good points and I respect them for this, but a systematic misunderstanding of what I am saying isnīt rational debate in anyoneīs book.
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  #1402  
Old 10-10-2008, 10:38 AM
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I don't think you need to worry about my ability to understand my native tongue, but I do appreciate your concern, thank you.

I think you have amply demonstrated the point I have been making. Read my response to you in post # 1330 (p67).

You are absolutely entitled to your view that Kate may bot be suitable to be a consort to William. However, in your haste to repeated make the same points, you seem to have fail to notice that I don't think I have expressed a view on whether I like or dislike Kate or whether I consider her suitable for the role of consort to William. The point I have consistently made is that your criticisms of her, in my opinion, are not with basis. If one is willing to criticise, I think one should be willing to provide a suitable alternative course of action. For example, on many an occassion you have indicated that she should stop waiting and move on with her life. Pray why? Thats entirely between William and her on how they choose to spend their 20s. In the UK, couples who meet at university often wait till they are about 30 before they marry. Its just a cultural thing. Most people in their 20s prefer to be carefree, concentrate on building their careers and having fun. Its only as they approach the big 3-0 do they start to think about getting married, and perhaps having children. Thats exactly what these two are doing. He is getting on with training to be king-in-waiting. Her role is proving to be a bit more difficult as the press are constantly hounding her - so she is doing the next best thing, working for the family business and doing some charity fund raising along side it. If you think she should be doing something else whole waiting to be engaged (if that is how it turns out to be, who knows!), then you are free to make a suggestion. Carping on about waity katie without suggesting an alternative is not productive.

Your other baseless and repeated contentions include that William / the Palace have not shown a commitment to her, as (a) they have not given her an appartment at BP (as you IMO incorrectly suggest that Sophie was given) and (b) William has never publicly said that she is a non-negotiable part of his life. We have covered this previously but IMO your expectation that the BRF make a statement of the type only demonstrates your lack of understanding of basic PR, and the approach of the monarchy to personal questions relating to the members of the BRF.

If this in your mind is "a systematic misunderstanding of what I am saying" and not a "rational debate in anyoneīs book" then so be it!
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  #1403  
Old 10-10-2008, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
Maybe even earlier - Mette Marit Tjessem Hoiby. Felipe had his second go after failing to install a dessous model on the Spanish throne. At some point his parents had to give in, whether that was a good decision or not only time will tell. From that perspective Kate Middleton appears to be perfectly suitable, not divorced, no children out of wedlock, no druggie past.
IMHO it was a greater step to accept a divorcee as future queen of Spain for the Spanish people than for the Norwegians with their more liberal views to accept a single mother with a wild past. Okay, Letizia's first marriage was only a registry office marriage, so in the eyes of the church she married for the first time, but still...
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  #1404  
Old 10-10-2008, 10:52 AM
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I suggest you open a thread called "attack Menarue" and let people get on with the musings. I had my doubts about the English language when I heard HRH Prince William referred to as a "bloke" but that is neither here nor there. I would like to discuss Kate Middleton without having to bother reading your opinion of me which I find very boring and no doubt other people do too.
This thread could be very enlightening, there are many intelligent people here. I see many good arguments for Kate being acceptable. Dukeīs argument was very good and I find Joīs opinions reasonable as well as many others. My position is very much the same as Ysbelīs and no doubt many others.
Can we please get back to the debate......
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  #1405  
Old 10-10-2008, 11:32 AM
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I hadn't realised that disagreeing with you, or pointing out inconsistencies in your argument is tantamount to "attack Menarue", but I guess one learns everyday!

By the way, is William not a "bloke" or am I missing a trick?
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  #1406  
Old 10-10-2008, 11:34 AM
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In my English language he is not, and if your native tongue is English it is most disrespectful.
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  #1407  
Old 10-10-2008, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlotte1 View Post
The main objection to Prince Philip were not his sisters' marriages to Germans, read Gyles Brandreth's book he actually interviewed people who were there. It was his 'foreigness' that was the problem, and in the snobby world that existed Philip's blue, blue blood was also seen as a negative by those whose blood wasn't as blue! David Bowes Lyon ( the Queen Mother's youngest brother whom she was very close to) was particularly negative and treated Philip very badly. He was very much to the fore in arguing against Philip to his sister.
I think there was also the issue of Philip being so much under the influence of Mountbatten, a person the Queen Mother was suspicious of because of his great personal ambition and his earlier friendship with the Duke of Windsor. No doubt his "not one of us" status was the real sticking point with senior Household members - although I don't know how they would have felt about one of their own being elevated into the position of royal consort - but I think with the Queen Mother it was more personal. Her power struggle with Mountbatten continued beyond the issue of controlling the Queen and reared its head again in the next generation when the two of them were the main rivals for control of Prince Charles - and I firmly believe that the choice of Diana as Charles's first wife was part of that little battle, as the Queen Mother's gambit to counter Mountbatten's promotion of his granddaughter as Charles's wife.

Hopefully at least, with William, we won't be seeing that sort of thing going on behind the scenes.
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  #1408  
Old 10-10-2008, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Menarue View Post
I suggest you open a thread called "attack Menarue" and let people get on with the musings...
And I suggest you don't...

However, there's no reason for this thread to descend into attacks by members on other members who disagree with them. It should be possible to disagree about the thread topic without getting personal.
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  #1409  
Old 10-10-2008, 04:16 PM
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I hadnīt thought about the idea that Diana was part of the power battle between the Queen mother and Mountbatten but it sounds right to me.
Prince Charles was very fond of his grandmother and also very fond of Mountbatten so it must have caused him some grief.
Prince Philip once said that the Queen was the most tolerant woman he knew, but I think when she does give an opinion her family listen to her closely but I wouldnīt be surprised that in the case of the marriage of the heir to the throne Prince Philip will definitely have a say. That doesnīt mean that Prince Charles will do what his father says but as the Queen is said to consult Prince Philip on all family concerns whatever is said will be the opinion of them both.
I am sure they will give Prince William good advice, whether it is agreeable to everyone on this topic or not. As to Prince Williamīs future bride. Que sera sera.
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  #1410  
Old 10-10-2008, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Menarue View Post
In my English language he is not, and if your native tongue is English it is most disrespectful.

In Australia to call a man a 'bloke' is a term of endearment and one that signifies someone you like.

It is not disrestpectful - if anything the opposite.

English is a language spoken by many people as a first language but we all have different ways of saying things.

Australian English has some terms that others find strange but certainly 'bloke' is not a term of disrespect but rather one that signifies acceptance.

His father was described as a 'good bloke' by some of his school mates when he attended school here in the 60s.
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  #1411  
Old 10-11-2008, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isana View Post
So far however there is no indication at all that anyone in the BRF is opposed to William marrying Kate. She's neither divorced nor Catholic - so no problem there. The only problem some seem to have is their own idea that a royal bride has to be of aristocratic background or "breeding" - a notion the BRF does not seem to share itself - certainly not after their last "suitable" aristo virgin turned out to be the worst nightmare the Windsors ever experienced. I have yet to see anything to indicate that HM or anyone else would meddle with William's decision about marriage. If he decides he wants to marry Kate, I do not see the Queen saying "no" to it. Clearly if they didn't want him to possibly marry a "commoner" he wouldn't have been dating several before Kate and would not have had a very public relationship with her for so long.
I agree, and I honestly believe that it is a small number of the middle class that are opposed to Kate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
-----snipped---His father was described as a 'good bloke' by some of his school mates when he attended school here in the 60s
Good bloke here is normally used by drinking pals from the office or building site, along with good mate etc. Chap is the one that seems to be used by the upper middle and upper classes. Whichever, it is not as far as I know an insult.
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  #1412  
Old 10-11-2008, 06:33 AM
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I respectfully point out that "bloke" was used by his school mates who knew him not by a person who didnīt.
You wouldnīt say "hey Lillibet" to the Queen but perhaps her husband would. Bloke in itself is not an insult just IMHO disrespectful for a subject to use when referring to a member of the royal family. But "bloke" away if you want to, it is up to you.
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  #1413  
Old 10-11-2008, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Menarue View Post
I respectfully point out that "bloke" was used by his school mates who knew him not by a person who didnīt.
You wouldnīt say "hey Lillibet" to the Queen but perhaps her husband would. Bloke in itself is not an insult just IMHO disrespectful for a subject to use when referring to a member of the royal family. But "bloke" away if you want to, it is up to you.
I found that one should not argue with native speakers about the way they use colloquial expressions. They normally know a lot more than even the best-educated foreigner.
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'To dare is to lose one step for but a moment, not to dare is to lose oneself forever' - Crown Prince Frederick of Denmark in a letter to Miss Mary Donaldson as stated by them on their official engagement interview.
  #1414  
Old 10-11-2008, 08:14 AM
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Who is foreign?
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  #1415  
Old 10-11-2008, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Menarue View Post
Who is foreign?
Me for example. Is there a reason why you ask?
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'To dare is to lose one step for but a moment, not to dare is to lose oneself forever' - Crown Prince Frederick of Denmark in a letter to Miss Mary Donaldson as stated by them on their official engagement interview.
  #1416  
Old 10-11-2008, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Menarue View Post
I respectfully point out that "bloke" was used by his school mates who knew him not by a person who didnīt.
You wouldnīt say "hey Lillibet" to the Queen but perhaps her husband would. Bloke in itself is not an insult just IMHO disrespectful for a subject to use when referring to a member of the royal family. But "bloke" away if you want to, it is up to you.

Aussies most certainly would use the term 'bloke' to describe many members of the Royal family (and yes some would call out 'Lilibet' to the Queen - one of our top cricketers actually asked her for her autograph and eventually got it to - some five or so years after first being introduced to her and Philip and saying 'g'day' not 'How are you ma'am'. The royals are fully aware of Australians language and understand that these informal, colloquial, terms are actually positive and terms that are meant to show their acceptance amongst us.
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  #1417  
Old 10-11-2008, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
Me for example. Is there a reason why you ask?

Very well educated too
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  #1418  
Old 10-11-2008, 06:43 PM
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I think that this topic tends to get people riled up because some of the arguments against Kate marrying William sound like classism. That perhaps might not be what people mean, but that's what it sounds like.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
And I suggest you don't...

However, there's no reason for this thread to descend into attacks by members on other members who disagree with them. It should be possible to disagree about the thread topic without getting personal.
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  #1419  
Old 10-11-2008, 07:11 PM
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It seems reading over old threads there is a trend of distaste for the girlfriends/boyfriends and suspicion of the same and their motives, lots of are they good enough much as there is initially in many families when a sibling or child looks like settling down. Is it that we think of the RFs as extensions of our own?? Maybe they are stronger than we think. This seems to go to oohhs and ahhs at an engagement and downright gushing and adoration at the wedding followed by a honeymoon period then constructive criticism followed by speculation, praise, condemnation and apathy dependent on the occasion/other current news to divert interest. This also seems to happen in the press. Should Miss Middleton flash an engagement ring tomorrow and trail a 25 ft train into the church next week there would be nothing but WOW comments for a while. I have a lot more respect for her and for William for not giving in to the pressure.
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  #1420  
Old 10-12-2008, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
We have an upcoming article that Vanesa has written for the TRF articles site which makes pretty much this exact argument. We're hoping to publish it sometime in the next couple of weeks. It seems to be quite topical, because I'm seeing these concerns being expressed in several forums.
Not to drag the thread off topic or anything, but this article is now published, and is available here:

Commoners in Royal Houses

If anyone would like to talk about the article after reading it, you can do that here:

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ses-18655.html
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