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  #1381  
Old 10-10-2008, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Menarue View Post
The main objection to Prince Philip at the time of the marriage was not that he was a foreign prince but his sisters´ husbands, as one of these was closely linked to the Nazi regime and the WWII was just recently ended.
Luckily these objections were ignored and we have a happily married Queen to a Royal Prince.
Brandreth in his biographie of the marriage of Philip and Elizabeth writes that the problem a lot of courtiers had with Philip was that he was the nephew of the eminently influential Lord Mountbatten - they were afraid that Mountbatten would use this marriage to even further his influence at court.
As Philip had successfully fought in the British navy against Nazi-Germany in WWII, there was no Nazi-objection to him personally. Of course his sisters were not invited to the wedding, but that was all. Much more important was his Mountbatten-closeness and we know that Lord Mountbatten in fact tried to marry his granddaughter off to Charles, so they surely had reasons for their misgivings towards the Mountbatten-marriage.
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  #1382  
Old 10-10-2008, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Isana View Post
... so what is your point then? You do not consider Kate Middleton intersting - fair enough but I do not see why that should be a reason for William not to marry her if he really loves her. He needs to find a partner for life, not a cash cow for the press.

Sorry, I'm not too sure if this was directed to me or Menarue. For me, it's not simply the idea that she's boring (which I do subscribe to), it's more the idea of what will happen to the royal family if they do.

I think that it would be the beginning of the end. The generation that grew up with Diana is fading, with so many more and more celebrities or people who have achieved things through their own means, the art of marrying well (which let's face it, is what most Princesses greatest achievements are...otherwise the majority wouldn't be on their national or global stage) will begin to grate on people.


I don't know, I suspect they're together for more reasons than a deeply, passionate love. He's comfortable with her, she loves him for the package he provides (wealth, titles, fame and also him as the individual), it would be too much work for him to find someone else, she's going to stick through thick and thin to be there for him.

I still find the whole notion that she asked for flexibility in her job so she could be at his beck and call ridiculous and so telling, about him and her. So as much as he puts out a relaxed, informal appearance he expects a woman, his partner, a supposed equal to jump when he says so? She's willing to put it all on the line for a man who's life is focussed entirely on himself? Call me crazy but that doesn't appear a healthy relationship.

I think it will end up being a relationship that lasts about 10 or 12 years, then breaks up when he matures and meets someone else and unfortunately she will get dumped.
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  #1383  
Old 10-10-2008, 07:39 AM
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Royals are real people they're not like dogs with the right pedigree, put them together and hope they'll mate!
Well said Charlotte1. Here I thought I was checking out the "Engagement and relationship rumours and musing" thread and, on reading some of the comments here, thought I had strayed to the "Queen Elizibeth and the breeding of prize Corgis" thread.

Good grief, to think it should come down to bloodlines, honestly, it beggars belief. History has shown it's utter revulsion to such "ideas", and rightly so. Though now I come to think of it . . . . . . I heard that the Corgis choose their own mates more often than not!

And that, of course, accounts for the equally adoreable "Dorgis!
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  #1384  
Old 10-10-2008, 07:48 AM
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History has shown its utter revulsion to such ideas? How? Up until fairly recently royals have married royals or people of royal blood, when they went against this they made morganatic marriages. When it was suggested to Edward VIII that he could make Wallis his morganatic wife he was, at first, quite interested but then he was told that in England it was unacceptable and when the Commonwealth countries were consulted they agreed. Of course there were other concerns.
I am a bit at a loss to know if the Dorgis were by accident or not but they are cute but I am sure that if they had come from any other kennel than the Queen´s they would have been called mongrels.
  #1385  
Old 10-10-2008, 07:48 AM
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Also if anyone can become a Queen, people may well start asking why can't just anyone be a King. If the royal families start looking middle class, a lot of normal ordinary people can start to say, well, I could do a better job than they do and a lot cheaper.
We see it in a lot of democracies that when politicians elect the Head of State they cose candidates who have good manners and a suitable spouse to support them. So people have come to expect this kind of behaviour from the Head of a State and his/her family. When the daughter of German Bundespräsident Scheel announced in public that she is homosexual and in a relationship with a female TV- and comedy-star, a lot of people were aghast. But at that time her father was already the ex-Bundespraesident, so it didn't matter that much.

So I don't see different standards for Royal families or the families of elected Heads of State when we talk about the public's opinion.

As for the opinion that marrying commoners diminished the luster of the Royals: you need the media to whip up this feeling against a new princess and later her children. So far the media has not done that and I doubt they'll do it as long as the commoner princess behaves like a Royal. As I said before: politicians and the media are very well-aware that a change of the constitution has serious dangers to the stability of a country in tow. Which is something they don't want, the media especially because they know their readers don't want that.

So I don't think the media will ever use Catherine's background against her as long as she and her family behaves properly, as expected. Because in belittling a commoner princess for her background, without any other reason, would mean to belittle their readers.

Thus I think all this talk that commoner blood is weakening the monarchy has no basis in the way the political class or the people think about it.

What can weaken the monarchy is individual behaviour: The War of the Waleses was dangerous because both Diana and Charles did not behave like Royals should and became topics for the sensationalistic media. And there is no proof that today's princesses of the blood will be able to handle a Royal position better than a commoner girl. The times are gone when princesses were raised to do their duties and to behave appropriately, no matter what. We know today form decades of adolescence research how important the peer groups are in forming a character and there is no longer a closed-in Royal world to form the peer group of young princesses. They mix and mingle at school with all kind of girls from rich families: the daughters of drug barons are as well educated at posh schools as the daughters of popstars, self-made-millionaires or of the nobility.

Once the Royals decided to send their children to democratic schools, all things changed. So today you can only rely on the individual character of a person, not on her name or her background. Just take a look at prince Louis of Luxemburg and his wife Tessy de Nassau. Tessy was, compared to Catherine Middleton, a girl from a very ordinary background who was a soldier. There she met the prince, they fell in love and she got pregnant. Her married her only after their son was born, so she certainly was not "princess"-material at all. But ever since she has behaved with great dignity and it is clear whenever she appears at official events with her in-laws that she is well-liked and respected by them as their daughter-in-law. She will never be a princess of Luxembourg but she surely is a good representative of the the old name "de Nassau" and that's what people in Luxembourg like about her.
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  #1386  
Old 10-10-2008, 07:56 AM
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Tessy was a surprise to all and so far, besides her pregnancy, hasn´t seemed to have set a foot wrong but I think that you have said it all when you say "she will never be a princess of Luxembourg".
As I have said before I quite approve of all the minor royal members marrying who they love, or believe they love, regardless of background but not the future King of England. I approve of Chelsy (gosh, how Prince Harry is going to be relieved to hear that ).
  #1387  
Old 10-10-2008, 08:02 AM
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Tessy was a surprise to all and so far, besides her pregnancy, hasn´t seemed to have set a foot wrong but I think that you have said it all when you say "she will never be a princess of Luxembourg".
.
She might well be one day elevated to the title of HRH Princesse Tessy de Nassau as her father-in-law has done that for his morganatic sister-in-law and her children from the marriage to Prince Jean de Luxembourg.
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'To dare is to lose one step for but a moment, not to dare is to lose oneself forever' - Crown Prince Frederick of Denmark in a letter to Miss Mary Donaldson as stated by them on their official engagement interview.
  #1388  
Old 10-10-2008, 08:18 AM
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I am sorry I meant to say Grand Duchess of Luxembourg. I have absolutely no problem with morgantic marriages and I think in the case of Edward VIII it would have been a good way out of a very delicate situation, but it seems the British Government does have a problem with this kind of marriage.
  #1389  
Old 10-10-2008, 08:25 AM
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History has shown its utter revulsion to such ideas? How?
I was referring to the 20th century debacles with eugenics! The practices of Apartheid and Nazi party to name but two. Breeding a royal Consort would be equally distateful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Menarue
Up until fairly recently royals have married royals or people of royal blood, when they went against this they made morganatic marriages. . . . .
Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyons was not royal, Lady Diana Spencer was not royal and, on the continent, there is a whole generation of Crown Princesses who were not even from the Aristocracy. They were commoners and in many cases, working class, by which I mean they held down a job and paid for the roof over their own heads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by menarue
I am a bit at a loss to know if the Dorgis were by accident or not but they are cute but I am sure that if they had come from any other kennel than the Queen´s they would have been called mongrels.
They also show a romantic persuasion to choose their own mates.

As for being called "mongrels"? The descendents of the settlers throughout Australasia seem to take an inordinately perverse pleasure in seeing themselves as mongrels, being descendents of transported prisoners, "remittance" men and poor settlers. We are what we make ourselves and we glory in the diverse melting pot of culture, class and can-do!
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  #1390  
Old 10-10-2008, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Menarue View Post
The main objection to Prince Philip at the time of the marriage was not that he was a foreign prince but his sisters´ husbands, as one of these was closely linked to the Nazi regime and the WWII was just recently ended.
Luckily these objections were ignored and we have a happily married Queen to a Royal Prince.
The main objection to Prince Philip were not his sisters' marriages to Germans, read Gyles Brandreth's book he actually interviewed people who were there. It was his 'foreigness' that was the problem, and in the snobby world that existed Philip's blue, blue blood was also seen as a negative by those whose blood wasn't as blue! David Bowes Lyon ( the Queen Mother's youngest brother whom she was very close to) was particularly negative and treated Philip very badly. He was very much to the fore in arguing against Philip to his sister.

While the fantasy lies in royals marrying royals, the reality is that the royals themselves aren't interested. When Norway's Princess Martha Louise was in her 20s and unmarried she studied phsyiotheraphy in The Netherlands. At the time there were SEVEN unmarried eligible princes ( sons of Queen Beatrix and Princess Margriet) she's friends with all of them, ML went home and met and married her Norwegian commoner, the 7 princes, 6 married Dutch commoners ( 3 of Margriet's sons women they met at university) No marriage of 2 royals!
  #1391  
Old 10-10-2008, 08:45 AM
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But it's not a fairytale if the royals start looking more middle class themselves. Then the dashing prince starts to look like some overpaid rich guy with a cushy job. Sonja and Sylvia were successful because they married into families that were still very royal and acted like it and they aspired to match that standard.
But Sonja and Silvia didn't marry into families that were very royal. Sweden had all their royal trappings stripped away with the new constitution at the beginning of Carl Gustav's reign, it still gets referred to as the most equalitarian monarchy ( and for a long time considered one of the most fragile, the other was Norway. But both have survived and thrived thanks to the commoner queens)
Sonja married into a monarchy that prided itself at being simple and with the people, King Olav who was photographed taking the train to go skiing. The royal children who attended government schools, no private schools for them. No nobility, the only titles are the royal families.

Sonja and Silvia were the ones, who with all their common background, brought about some 'royalness' to their role. Sonja with her perfectionism wanting to be worthy as she had such a difficult time leading up to her marriage and Silvia with her intelligence in knowing that some "fairytale magic" was needed in her role.

The current CPs are commoners and yet all have risen to the role of 'princess', not just in the work they do but also when the occasion arises in the way they look. Maxima in particular is fantastic at a grand tiara occasion, and she has the brains and intelligence to use her role for working with worthy causes as well.
  #1392  
Old 10-10-2008, 08:54 AM
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I respectfully point out a fact, Britain is not a nordic country where they are far more tolerant and liberal, it is not Holland either (I really like Princess Maxima by the way, a lovely young lady) if it were just a question of Kate Middleton wearing a tiara fantastically then she would pass with honours.
  #1393  
Old 10-10-2008, 09:04 AM
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I respectfully point out a fact, Britain is not a nordic country where they are far more tolerant and liberal, it is not Holland either (I really like Princess Maxima by the way, a lovely young lady) if it were just a question of Kate Middleton wearing a tiara fantastically then she would pass with honours.
For me all became possible the day Felipe Bourbon y de Grecia announced his engagement to a divorced commoner. A divorced future queen in catholic Spain - if that is possible with the Spanish then all things are possible with the British.
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  #1394  
Old 10-10-2008, 09:14 AM
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For me all became possible the day Felipe Bourbon y de Grecia announced his engagement to a divorced commoner. A divorced future queen in catholic Spain - if that is possible with the Spanish then all things are possible with the British.
Now that was really a surprise. I think we get back to the "non-negotiable" part, as I believe that was said by Prince Felipe, the very much loved only son of the sovereigns. As you say after that happening, you never know, it was almost a "if pigs could fly" situation but he pulled it off. Whether Prince William has the same dedication to Kate is the question then.
  #1395  
Old 10-10-2008, 09:36 AM
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As you say after that happening, you never know, it was almost a "if pigs could fly" situation but he pulled it off. Whether Prince William has the same dedication to Kate is the question then.
More wishful thinking, Menarue?
  #1396  
Old 10-10-2008, 09:46 AM
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So far however there is no indication at all that anyone in the BRF is opposed to William marrying Kate. She's neither divorced nor Catholic - so no problem there. The only problem some seem to have is their own idea that a royal bride has to be of aristocratic background or "breeding" - a notion the BRF does not seem to share itself - certainly not after their last "suitable" aristo virgin turned out to be the worst nightmare the Windsors ever experienced. I have yet to see anything to indicate that HM or anyone else would meddle with William's decision about marriage. If he decides he wants to marry Kate, I do not see the Queen saying "no" to it. Clearly if they didn't want him to possibly marry a "commoner" he wouldn't have been dating several before Kate and would not have had a very public relationship with her for so long.
  #1397  
Old 10-10-2008, 09:52 AM
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More wishful thinking, Menarue?
Misunderstanding again Muriel?
  #1398  
Old 10-10-2008, 10:01 AM
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For me all became possible the day Felipe Bourbon y de Grecia announced his engagement to a divorced commoner. A divorced future queen in catholic Spain - if that is possible with the Spanish then all things are possible with the British.
Maybe even earlier - Mette Marit Tjessem Hoiby. Felipe had his second go after failing to install a dessous model on the Spanish throne. At some point his parents had to give in, whether that was a good decision or not only time will tell. From that perspective Kate Middleton appears to be perfectly suitable, not divorced, no children out of wedlock, no druggie past.
  #1399  
Old 10-10-2008, 10:03 AM
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That is true Duke, in comparison Kate shows up very well.
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Old 10-10-2008, 10:30 AM
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Misunderstanding again Muriel?
Not at all. I understand totally that you dislike the idea of being a potential consort for William -and thats fine, you are entilted to your views. What is amusing is your inability to ever explain your position, or respond to rational debate. But thats fine - its not against the rules of the forums!
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