The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Reigning Houses > British Royals > Prince Harry and Prince William

Join The Royal Forums Today
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #841  
Old 08-23-2008, 10:26 AM
Ella Kay's Avatar
Courtier
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Anywhere, United States
Posts: 952
Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel View Post
I think a major adjustment of anyone who marries into the Royal Family is the attitude of some of the staff that the ones who marry into the family are less important and less worthy of devotion and service than the ones who are born into the family. I'm not sure of Prince Philip's early experiences but this was a common theme that Anthony Armstrong-Jones, Mark Phillips, Diana, and Sarah experienced. For example I have read that Margaret and Charles both had a very close group of retainers serving them when they married and the retainers had a comfortable routine of serving just one master (or mistress) and they quite resented having to take the wants and needs of a second person into consideration. It can make the newcomer seem like the odd man out of a very close unit.
Another good point about Kate, then, might be that she was likely already with William when decisions were being made about his personal staff at Clarence House. I'm sure some of the people working for him have been around longer than Kate, but we know at least that his shared press staff (with Harry) were only recently chosen. Any help hired for William post-college would have known and been familiar with Kate when they took the job, so perhaps that might help allay the situation you described, ysbel.
__________________

__________________

"I have to be seen to be believed."
HM The Queen
  #842  
Old 08-24-2008, 06:12 AM
Duchess's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: xx, Canada
Posts: 1,648
Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel View Post
Diana was young and all she had known was the country life of an English aristocrat so of course, she thought she liked it. When she got older, she realized that she didn't like the rigidness of royal protocol and that she preferred the excitement of city life to the country but she could have hardly expected to know that when she was married.

Sarah was comfortable with the country life and she had the easygoing fun that the Royals enjoyed when they were totally in private but Sarah didn't realize that the Royals showed quite a different face and demeanour when they were on public duties. In hindsight, she should have known but I suspect that her own experience with the Royals colored her perception and that she didn't pay attention to the other side of the royals until it was too late.

I think a major adjustment of anyone who marries into the Royal Family is the attitude of some of the staff that the ones who marry into the family are less important and less worthy of devotion and service than the ones who are born into the family. I'm not sure of Prince Philip's early experiences but this was a common theme that Anthony Armstrong-Jones, Mark Phillips, Diana, and Sarah experienced. For example I have read that Margaret and Charles both had a very close group of retainers serving them when they married and the retainers had a comfortable routine of serving just one master (or mistress) and they quite resented having to take the wants and needs of a second person into consideration. It can make the newcomer seem like the odd man out of a very close unit.

I sincerely hope that this attitude has changed because it causes undue hardship for someone trying to fit into a new family (and a public one at that) for the first time. I haven't heard that Sophie or Camilla has experienced this so let's hope this old outdated custom has been put to pasture for good.
but diana already had almost 3 years of city living under her belt by the time she was married....she'd been living at her colehern (sp?) court flat for almost that long hadn't she? so she would've experienced plenty of city life by then.
__________________

__________________
Duchess
  #843  
Old 08-24-2008, 07:26 AM
MARG's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posts: 3,889
The life of a casual Nanny and Sloan Ranger at 18 is hardly old enough to have any life experience. She was young, inexperienced and naive and she was hardly a sophisticate.

We all change as we grow. It is just unfortunate that she didn't realise just how much the BRF loved the country with it lack of "goldfish bowl" life. That being the case they were more likely to go fishing than to the ballet to relax.
__________________
MARG
"Words ought to be a little wild, for they are assaults of thoughts on the unthinking." - JM Keynes
  #844  
Old 08-24-2008, 08:02 AM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 802
Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel View Post
I. I'm not sure of Prince Philip's early experiences .
Prince Philip was given a miserable time by the courtiers when he married and even worse after his wife became queen. He was treated appallingly, but Philip being Philip 'just got on with things' as he said when Hugo Vickers asked him about his disfunctional childhood. Philip probably had a harder time, considering the era he married into the royal family, than either Diana or Sarah but he wasn't the type to complain and just got on with things.
__________________
  #845  
Old 08-24-2008, 08:48 AM
Duke of Marmalade's Avatar
Majesty
TRF Author
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Frankfurt am Main, Germany
Posts: 8,398
Exactly and I think that this attitude was expected from both Diana (most importantly) and Sarah Ferguson - to get on with it. If they had been up to this standard the BRF would look much different today than it actually does. I am not saying that they should have adapted to Philip's iron attitude towards marriage and duty as they are a different generation but it would have been wiser to find some midway instead of going to the other extreme, completely off the rails.
__________________
  #846  
Old 08-24-2008, 08:54 AM
angiep's Avatar
Gentry
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Mt Pleasant Mills, United States
Posts: 82
I've been reading most of these posts.....I like Kate for William very much. I think they seem to get along very well and Kate has the sophisticated poise of Diana to keep the media interested. However, it doesn't look good for her to be waiting idly for her prince to propose to her. Sometimes plans don't always work out (for whatever reason) and she doesn't seem to want to be doing anything significant in her young life except waiting for William to propose.
__________________
  #847  
Old 08-24-2008, 09:28 AM
ysbel's Avatar
Heir Apparent
TRF Author
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: New York, United States
Posts: 5,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duchess View Post
but diana already had almost 3 years of city living under her belt by the time she was married....she'd been living at her colehern (sp?) court flat for almost that long hadn't she? so she would've experienced plenty of city life by then.
Yes, you're right. I guess what I meant is that she hadn't know the sophisticated city life that she later felt at home with but you're right she had had some city experience.

It was simply a disturbing pattern how the staff treated the outsiders once they married into the family and if Philip, Antony Armstrong-Jones, Mark Phillips, Diana, and Sarah (5 distinctly different personalities) had similar experiences, one couldn't chalk the staff behavior to the newcomer's own behavior.

Yes, I agree its necessary for anyone marrying into the Royal Family to have a thick skin but they shouldn't be required to have an elephant hide before they enter the Firm.
__________________
"One thing we can do is make the choice to view the world in a healthy way. We can choose to see the world as safe with only moments of danger rather than seeing the world as dangerous with only moments of safety."
-- Deepak Chopra
  #848  
Old 08-24-2008, 11:33 AM
Duchess's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: xx, Canada
Posts: 1,648
i completely agree with you you do have to be thick skinned. but i think when you're one up against the people that handle the royal family, it takes a particular kind of personality to be able to withstand the kind of treatment that these people seem to think they're entitled to hand out and ,so far at least, the only person able to give as good as he gets is philip as he's the only one stil there. is it stubborness and a sense of entitlement or is it love for his wife?
__________________
Duchess
  #849  
Old 08-24-2008, 11:41 AM
Odette's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Tampa, United States
Posts: 2,481
Is is stubborness on Philip's part or complete acceptance of how things work behind the Palace doors? Is is possble that since he was born and raised among royals he had a better understanding of what the courtiers are capable of doing?
Apart form all the personality differences the one common demoninator for Diana, Sarah,Anthony A.J was the fact that although familiar with the royal life they were mot immersed into it from the start.
__________________
  #850  
Old 08-24-2008, 12:36 PM
ysbel's Avatar
Heir Apparent
TRF Author
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: New York, United States
Posts: 5,390
Philip spent his early life being shunted among relatives in Germany and then he moved to Britain where he was with the Mountbattens so I don't know if his childhood was that royal. His parents didn't seem to have anything to do with his upbringing.

At any rate, I don't think that any of the previous consorts except for Sophie and maybe Mark Philips was truly middle class with no exposure to the aristocracy or royalty so if William and Harry want to marry middle class girls, its probably better for the Palace to anticipate and make adjustments for the culture shock that would entail. Its a fine line, though, they can't make too many adjustments or the royals will stop looking like royals and then people will start questioning why there is a monarchy again. So the girls themselves will have to make a bit of an adjustment too.

The important point, I think, is that the adjustments cannot be all one-sided, either in favor of the Palace or the girls coming in.
__________________
"One thing we can do is make the choice to view the world in a healthy way. We can choose to see the world as safe with only moments of danger rather than seeing the world as dangerous with only moments of safety."
-- Deepak Chopra
  #851  
Old 08-24-2008, 01:00 PM
Odette's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Tampa, United States
Posts: 2,481
I agree, however with a royal pedigree like Philip's it may have been a bit more difficult for the courtiers to treat him as a new comer, an outsider. In the case of the recent arrivals or future ones, it may be easier for them to push the "outsiders" around a bit more forcefully. It is up to the Royal Family to set the parameters and help anyone destined to become a senior member have a better training and a "softer" landing.
__________________
  #852  
Old 08-24-2008, 02:07 PM
Jo of Palatine's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Munich, Germany
Posts: 3,323
Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel View Post
The important point, I think, is that the adjustments cannot be all one-sided, either in favor of the Palace or the girls coming in.
I have recently read the Brandreth-portrait of the marriage of Elizabeth and Philip and what he writes about Philip's situation when Elizabeth wanted to marry him.

I personally got the impression that Elizabeth is at the heart of the whole problem. Not that she is responisble but that her attitude towards duty and personal sacrifice for the sake of the monarchy still allows her courtiers to treat the Royals as mere employees and representatives of the firm instead of being the firm.

Brandreth tells about how the young queen never for a moment thought to share her work as a queen with her husband, that he never got to see any papers she had to read and that he never was allowed in when Elizabeth worked. While this surely is the correct way to deal with the situation, it tells a lot about Elizabeth's view on her husband as being more or less just a part of her private life. And I think we all have an idea how important her private life is to her when compared to her duty.

So queen Elizabeth clearly chose her courtiers over her husband, understandible, of course, as she, when she was was still Heiress Presumptive, had been "allowed in" as a very young and unexperienced member to the most noble circle of her father's inner court, the same court /establisment which had managed the Abdication Crisis and which was therefore to be taken utmost seriously.

It's interesting to read (in Bradford, Dimbleby and Brandreth among others) how Charles' "court" is considered to be an absolutely minor and unimportant part of the monarchy and how "Buckingham Palace" treated him, his ideas and his chosen advisors accordingly.

I think it's this way of the "Grey man" to view all Royals besides the queen as unimportant on knowing that you can convince her anytime that something must be done out of duty which made life so miserable for Diana, Fergie, Mark Phillips and Snowdon.While Philip according to Brandreth organised his life in a way that he had not so much to do with these advisors of his wife.

I have no doubt eg that the fact that both Anne and Charles used "Mountbatten-Windsor" on their marriage certificate was a direct blow from them against the courtiers who have belittled Philip in that respect. because I don't think Charles or Anne care much about the Mountbatten-part as this has no historical background but they wanted to show their support for the man who fathered them.

I have no doubt Charles will change a lot when he becomes king and that he will see to it that William and his wife, if he marries before his father is the king, will find shelter and support within the Clarence House/St. James' s Palace-household - and be it only (for those who don't like Charles) that he blames the BP-treatment of Diana partly for his failed marriage and want to make sure his own son's wife is better protected and supported than Diana was and that she knows about that and feels safe.

I have equally no doubt that if Charles was already king, we would see a different way to deal with Royal girlfriends: IMHo it was no coincidence that when Catherine stayed at Balmoral, she was snapped receiving advice from Charles when she went out shooting. Charles will do nothing to upset his very old-fashioned mother, so he does not include Catherine too much in Royal events and does not allow William to do so apart from events where a) William has a right to bring his girlfriend like graduation or receiving a knightship or b) someone else takes the responsibility like the bridal couple at a wedding, who can invite Catherine as their friend.
But as he did with Camilla he subversively works for his own aims, just like, when Camilla was snubbed by Royal Protocoll at the Cutsem-Grosvenor-wedding and Charles was helpless to do something, he simply did not turn up either, so showed his support for Camilla and forced his mother to acknowledge Camilla as his HRH-wife. I believe the "Duchess/Princess Consort-stuff was the reaction of the queen's court, who convinced the queen it would be wiser to act that way..

All IMHo, of course, but I simply don't see Charles and Camilla condone the behaviour of the current courtiers once they are the king and his queen.
__________________
'To dare is to lose one step for but a moment, not to dare is to lose oneself forever' - Crown Prince Frederick of Denmark in a letter to Miss Mary Donaldson as stated by them on their official engagement interview.
  #853  
Old 08-24-2008, 03:42 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: london, United Kingdom
Posts: 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy1716 View Post
I understand that there may be issues with Kate working in a company, such as the Wessex Fake Shiekl affair etc but why cant Kate work for a charity or similar organistion? She has a good degree and is, it seems, a bright girl. Clearly she doesnt need a wage, so she could work for a charity with little problem about money.
I think the days of the British people accepting a Queen who has no sense of what having a real, normal, job is like, are over.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...s-workshy.html

Hm what a coincidence, maybe HM reads the Forum, lol. I agree with this article, even though i know im probably going ot be hated for saying so.
__________________
  #854  
Old 08-24-2008, 03:58 PM
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: ***, United States
Posts: 16,897
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy1716 View Post
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...s-workshy.html

Hm what a coincidence, maybe HM reads the Forum, lol. I agree with this article, even though i know im probably going ot be hated for saying so.
Heck, and all this time we were thinking that Skydragon was Camilla...
__________________
  #855  
Old 08-24-2008, 04:10 PM
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: ***, United States
Posts: 16,897
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlotte1 View Post
Prince Philip was given a miserable time by the courtiers when he married and even worse after his wife became queen. He was treated appallingly, but Philip being Philip 'just got on with things' as he said when Hugo Vickers asked him about his disfunctional childhood. Philip probably had a harder time, considering the era he married into the royal family, than either Diana or Sarah but he wasn't the type to complain and just got on with things.
This seems to be pretty well documented (at least the appalling treatment - I think he did his share of complaining). However, since Princess Elizabeth married so young, at least there wasn't the added issue like there was with Princess Margaret and Prince Charles of a household that had become used to dealing with a single person and had taken on some of the tasks that a spouse might have done (choosing clothes and menus and whatever) and would have considered just about anyone to be an interloper who threatened their positions.

I also agree with Jo's point that the Household are there to protect the insitution of the monarchy and not the people who happen to be occupying the positions as senior royals at any given time. Their ruthless treatment of the Duke of Windsor and the way Fergie was consigned to social Siberia are cases in point. I've read in some of the biographies of the Queen and Prince Philip about how people close to the Queen were afraid the senior advisors (Private Secretary and so on) would bury her in work and make impossible demands on her in their desire to make sure things continued unchanged and they kept control. I don't know how much control she's managed to take back over the years - I assume she's managed to assert herself to some degree - but this is another danger of William following her directly on the throne. He'd be much easier fodder for the self interest of the Pooh Bahs than Charles with his greater experience and ability to assert himself.
__________________
  #856  
Old 08-24-2008, 04:19 PM
Jo of Palatine's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Munich, Germany
Posts: 3,323
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy1716 View Post
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...s-workshy.html

Hm what a coincidence, maybe HM reads the Forum, lol. I agree with this article, even though i know im probably going ot be hated for saying so.
There were a lot of things reported as facts that were originally printed in this publication as coming from "sources". Now they tate them as facts because the publication has printed them before... Talk about serious journalism.

What I personally read into the article is that Catherine will get engaged this year and that she is already planning which charity to take on. But that's my personal choice from the amount of no facts layed out there. We'll see.
__________________
'To dare is to lose one step for but a moment, not to dare is to lose oneself forever' - Crown Prince Frederick of Denmark in a letter to Miss Mary Donaldson as stated by them on their official engagement interview.
  #857  
Old 08-24-2008, 04:31 PM
Skydragon's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London and Highlands, United Kingdom
Posts: 10,943
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy1716 View Post
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...s-workshy.html

Hm what a coincidence, maybe HM reads the Forum, lol. I agree with this article, even though i know im probably going ot be hated for saying so.
We all know the comments section in The Mail is selected to reflect agreement with which ever feline has written the article and I really can't see HM making her feelings about Catherine made clear to anyone. It becomes laughable with reports such as
Quote:
‘She is often asked when she is out at parties. I was with her at one event when a representative from a rather high-profile charity suggested that Kate get involved.
I can't quite see any representatives attending the same parties as Catherine or her alleged 'friend', nor would I imagine they would be forward in approaching someone as low profile as Catherine!

The Mail is just trying to resurrect it's own storyline with it's seemingly desperate attempts to back up it's author by repeating the comments they did publish!
__________________
  #858  
Old 08-24-2008, 04:42 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: many places, United States
Posts: 831
Quote:
Originally Posted by angiep View Post
I've been reading most of these posts.....I like Kate for William very much. I think they seem to get along very well and Kate has the sophisticated poise of Diana to keep the media interested. However, it doesn't look good for her to be waiting idly for her prince to propose to her. Sometimes plans don't always work out (for whatever reason) and she doesn't seem to want to be doing anything significant in her young life except waiting for William to propose.
But how do you know that William hasn't proposed already and that only the two of them know (yet) and that is the way they want it. Actually is really is none of our business until it is made public by the Royal Family. I have the strong feeling that both William and Kate (along with Charles and the Queen maybe) know exactly what is happening and all is under control.
__________________
Forgiveness is the fragrance the violet shed on the heel that crushed it - Mark Twain
  #859  
Old 08-24-2008, 08:43 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Annapolis, United States
Posts: 443
Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel View Post
I think a major adjustment of anyone who marries into the Royal Family is the attitude of some of the staff that the ones who marry into the family are less important and less worthy of devotion and service than the ones who are born into the family. I'm not sure of Prince Philip's early experiences but this was a common theme that Anthony Armstrong-Jones, Mark Phillips, Diana, and Sarah experienced. For example I have read that Margaret and Charles both had a very close group of retainers serving them when they married and the retainers had a comfortable routine of serving just one master (or mistress) and they quite resented having to take the wants and needs of a second person into consideration. It can make the newcomer seem like the odd man out of a very close unit.

I sincerely hope that this attitude has changed because it causes undue hardship for someone trying to fit into a new family (and a public one at that) for the first time. I haven't heard that Sophie or Camilla has experienced this so let's hope this old outdated custom has been put to pasture for good.
Very true Ysbel. I have read that Prince Philip had a terrible time with courtiers at the beginning of his marriage:

"'And life at court was very, very frustrating for him at first,' according to Patricia's [Mountbatten] husband, Lord Brabourne. 'It was very stuffy. Lascelles [Private Secretary to King George VI] was impossible. They were absolutely bloody to him. They patronised him. They treated him as an outsider. It wasn't much fun. He laughed it off, of course, but it must have hurt... In a way, marriage hardly changed her [Princess Elizabeth's] life at all. She was able to carry on much as before. In getting married, she didn't sacrifice anything. His life changed completely. He gave up everything.'"

Gyles Brandreth, Philip and Elizabeth Portrait of a Royal Marriage (2004).

I don't know the reputation of this Brandreth fellow, but I understand his book was written from first-hand interviews with and permission from Prince Philip himself, a personal friend of Brandreth's, and from scores of interviews with other personal acquaintances who know Pr. Philip and the Queen personally.
__________________
  #860  
Old 08-24-2008, 10:32 PM
sthreats's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: midwest, United States
Posts: 313
I am not trying 'hate' but something about Kate rubs me the wrong way. She seems too caught up in being a professional girlfriend and having her photo op. Diana may have had her press issues later in the marriage but she did not start out a polished performer. Kate seems IMO too slick. William is kinda simple he needs a nice girl maybe like Jecca (JMO)
__________________

__________________
Closed Thread

Tags
engagement, kate middleton, prince william, relationships, speculation, tabloid press


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
William and Kate: engagement and relationship rumours and musings 2009 Warren Prince Harry and Prince William 2017 01-01-2010 10:18 AM




Additional Links
Popular Tags
birth charlene chris o'neill crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess letizia crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria current events duchess of cambridge style fashion grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri hohenzollern infanta cristina infanta elena infanta leonor infanta sofia jordan king abdullah ii king carl xvi gustav king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander luxembourg ottoman pom prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince constantijn prince felipe prince floris prince laurent prince maurits prince pieter-christiaan princess princess alexia (2005 -) princess anita princess ariane princess beatrix princess catharina-amalia princess charlene princess claire princess elisabeth princess laurentien princess letizia princess mabel princess madeleine princess margriet princess marie princess mary princess of asturias queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen paola queen rania queen silvia queen sofia royal russia spain state visit wedding william


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

RV & Travel Trailer Communities

Our RV & Travel Trailer sites encompasses virtually all types of Recreational Vehicles, from brand-specific to general RV communities.

» More about our RV Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002-2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:13 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]