Titles and Styles of William, Harry, Wives and Children

[chrissy57]

Originally Posted by crisiñaki

What happens to the title of Duke of York? doesn't it belong to the second in line after the Prince of Wales?, so when Charles become King, what will happen with Andrew and Henry?

No - it is an heritary title just like other dukedoms but since the 1450s has never had a male heir unless the original recipient has then become king and thus it merged with the crown.

I did have a list of all the Dukes of York and what happened to them but I can't find it so I will attempt to recreate it.

Second son of Edward IV - one of the Princes in the Tower - therefore no legitimate issue
Second son of Henry VII - Henry VIII- merged with crown
Second son of James I - Charles I - merged with crown
Second son of Charles I - James II - merged with crown
Second son of George III - died without legitimate issue
Second son of Edward VII - George V - merged with the crown
Second son of George V - Geroge VI - merged with the crown
Second son of Elizabeth II - Andrew - at the moment - no male heir - therefore at his death or his accession to the crown (if he outlives Charles, William and Harry and any legitimate issue they might have) merge with the crown.

There are some others but I will have to look them up for you. I will add them in if I can find them.

Because it has always merged with the crown due to no legitimate male issue or the holder becoming king since the days of the Wars of the Roses people assume that it belongs to the second son of the monarch but in fact that is just the coincidence of the title - NB Victoria didn't use it for her second son even though it was available as her uncle had died in 1828 so you see it doesn't belong to the second son of the monarch.

[chrissy57]

Originally Posted by crisiñaki

What happens to the title of Duke of York? doesn't it belong to the second in line after the Prince of Wales?, so when Charles become King, what will happen with Andrew and Henry?

The title Duke of York is a normal title and can be inherited by a son. It is just that since the late middle ages no Duke of York has had a son to inherit it except for those Dukes of York that became King.

I have attached the list of the Dukes of York and what happened to the holder for you.

First creation - Edmund of Langley, the fourth surviving son of Edward III. His son Edward was convicted of treason and his titles forfeited in 1415. Edward's son Richard managed to obtain a restoration of the title, however, though his eldest son, also named Edward, was the last to hold the title, as when he became King, his titles merged into the Crown.

Second creation - Richard, second son of Edward IV one of the Princes in the Tower and as he died without legitimate male issue, the title became extinct at his death.

Third creation - Henry Tudor, second son of Henry VII later Henry VIII, when the titles merged into the crown.

Fourth creation - Charles Stuart, second son of James I later Charles I.

Fifth creation - James Stuart, the second son of Charles I. When his older brother, Charles II, died without legitiamte issue, James succeeded to the throne as James II and the title once again merged into the Crown.

First creation of title as Duke of York and Albany - Duke Ernest Augustus of Brunswick-Lüneburg, Bishop of Osnabrück, the youngest brother of George I. He died without heirs.

Second creation of title as Duke of York and Albany - Prince Edward Augustus, younger brother of George III, who also died without heirs, having never married.

Third and last creation title as York and Albany title - Prince Frederick Augustus, the second son of George III. He too died without legitimate issue in 1828.

Sixth creation of title as Duke of York - Prince George of Wales, second son of Bertie, Prince of Wales, the future Edward VII. He was created Duke of York following the death of his older brother, the Duke of Clarence. The title merged with the crown when George succeeded his father as King George V.

Seventh creation was for Prince Albert, second son of King George V, and younger brother of Edward VIII. Albert came unexpectedly to the throne when his brother abdicated, and took the name George VI, the dukedom merging into the crown.

Eigth creation was for Prince Andrew, second son of Queen Elizabeth II. As of the present day, he has only two daughters. Thus, if he has no future sons, which seems highly likely, the title will become extinct at his death and merge into the Crown. If the tradition of awarding the title to the second son of the monarch was to continue, the title would then be awarded to Prince Harry, the younger son of Prince Charles. Titles are traditionally given on marriage and if Harry's marriage predated Andrew's death, another title would have to be awarded instead.

Aside from the first creation, every time the Dukedom of York has been created it has had only one occupant, that person either inheriting the throne or dying without male heirs. This has given rise to the idea that there is a curse of some sort on the title.

NB Victoria could have created her own second son Duke of York as her uncle died in 1828 (if he had lived until 1830 he would have become king thus the title would have merged anyway) but she didn't do so. Therefore it is not necessary for the second son to be created Duke of York. When George V was created Duke of York he was actually the eldest surviving son of the heir to the throne as his brother had already died.

[crisiñaki]

Thanks (all of you) a lot for your explanations.
I have another question, Andrew's eldest daughter can inherit his title?

[chrissy57]

Originally Posted by ysbel

Who other than Eddy, had the title of Duke of Clarence?

There have been some other Dukes of Clarence as listed below:

First creation – Lionel of Antwerp – third son of Edward III in 1362 – no sons

Second creation – Thomas of Lancaster – second son of Henry IV – no sons

Third creation – George Plantagenet – brother of Edward IV – forfeited title when convicted of treason

Next creation was Clarence and St Andrews – 1789 – Prince William – third son of George III – merged with crown in 1830 when he became King William IV

Final creation as Clarence and Avondale – Albert Victor of Wales – Eddy – no sons

Victoria also included it as an earldom as a subsidiary title for Leopold, Duke of Albany and Earl of Clarence.

[chrissy57]

Originally Posted by crisiñaki

Thanks (all of you) a lot for your explanations.
I have another question, Andrew's eldest daughter can inherit his title?

Not without new Letters Patent being issued as those issued at the time of the creation specified heirs MALE of the body.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by crisiñaki

Thanks (all of you) a lot for your explanations.
I have another question, Andrew's eldest daughter can inherit his title?

The Queen or Charles III could issue a Royal Warrant allowing the title to pass to Andrew's eldest daughter in her own right, but I doubt this will happen because the future intent is to downsize the number of royal styles and titles.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by crisiñaki

What happens to the title of Duke of York? doesn't it belong to the second in line after the Prince of Wales?, so when Charles become King, what will happen with Andrew and Henry?

It is very likely that Andrew will be alive and Harry will have been created The Duke of Cambridge or Sussex upon marriage by The Queen before Charles becomes King.

[gaggleofcrazypeople]

But would Andrew get another title then?

[Elspeth]

Originally Posted by chrissy57

If William and Crown Princess Victorian fell in love they would still need the permission of their respective governments/monarchs to marry. The problems would be threefold as I see it.

1 William would have to become Lutheran as the spouse of the Swedish monarch MUST be Lutheran. The spouse of the British monarch only has to not be RC.

2 How would two separate governments cope with their monarch being the spouse of another monarch?

3 Who would inherit? Hopefully two children would be born and one would inherit Sweden and one Britain but which one?


Easier solution - William falls in love with Madelaine - gets a Princess who knows the ropes, a Protestant, and no top level concerns about the monarchs and inheritance.

The problem being that the British monarch has to be a communicant of the Church of England.

[Elspeth]

Originally Posted by ysbel

I think the British laws don't require a spouse to be Church of England but just Protestant. They don't require a Protestant spouse from another religion to convert. I don't remember that Alexandra converted to Anglicism but she may have later on of her own free will.

At any rate, I think if the girl is Christian and non-Catholic, it won't be an issue.

As far as I know, Christian isn't legally necessary. He could get married to a Jew or an atheist or a Muslim or a Pagan, not just a Protestant or Orthodox Christian, as far as the Act of Settlement is concerned, just not a Catholic.

[crisiñaki]

Thanks everybody for giving the answers to my questions:)

[chrissy57]

Originally Posted by gaggleofcrazypeople

But would Andrew get another title then?

Andrew's title is Duke of York and will remain that until EITHER he dies, at which time it becomes extinct as he has no male heirs, OR he becomes king, at which time it merges with the crown.

The only way that Harry gets the Duke of York title is for Andrew to die, with no legitimate male child, before Harry gets a title of his own as while Andrew lives, and doesn't become king through the deaths of Charles, William and Harry without legitimate issue of their own, he is the Duke of York.

As Andrew is only 44 Harry could well be in his late 50s or even early 60s or even older when the title becomes available. As Harry will probably have already been given another title of his own the chances of Harry ever being Duke of York are very slim. More likely William will be king and have a second son of his own who could be created Duke of York but even then it is customary for a few years to pass before a new creation so it is possible that it might not be until William's own heir has a second son before we have a ninth creation. I suspect that I will have met my maker before there is another Duke of York and I am only a couple of years older than Andrew.

[ysbel]

Originally Posted by Elspeth

As far as I know, Christian isn't legally necessary. He could get married to a Jew or an atheist or a Muslim or a Pagan, not just a Protestant or Orthodox Christian, as far as the Act of Settlement is concerned, just not a Catholic.

Yes, Elspeth, I realize that. I just think that if he wants to marry a non-Christian, he'll face societal pressure, not necessarily a legal block.

[gaggleofcrazypeople]

Originally Posted by chrissy57

Andrew's title is Duke of York and will remain that until EITHER he dies, at which time it becomes extinct as he has no male heirs, OR he becomes king, at which time it merges with the crown.

Thanks. I got confused for a minute.

[ksenia]

i always found it interesting how do people (in a marriage of different religions) decide which religion will be the dominate one in the household or how do you blend them so the children are not conflicted or confused by oposing doctrine.

[LaPlusBelle]

After Charles becomes King, whenever that may be, what will be Harry's title? Usually the second son gets York, but that's Prince Andrew, so what does that leave for Harry?
Or, will Charles create a letters patent for his son to revive an extinct duchy?
Thank you!

[Beck]

I think Harry will get the Duke of Clarence, Albany or Connaught. These are no longer in use and have been used within the royal family before. Queen Victoria's sons used Albany (Prince Leopold) and Connaught (Prince Arthur), and Edward VII son Eddy, used the title of Duke of Clarence.

[GreenLily]

Weren't Edward and Sophie supposed to get the Dukedom of Cambridge - and then Edward requested the Earldom of Wessex (supposedly because he saw the film Elizabeth and wanted to resurrect the title.) So couldn't Harry technically get the Dukedom of Cambridge? Although, I agree, it will probably be Clarence.

[ysbel]

Originally Posted by GreenLily

Weren't Edward and Sophie supposed to get the Dukedom of Cambridge - and then Edward requested the Earldom of Wessex (supposedly because he saw the film Elizabeth and wanted to resurrect the title.) So couldn't Harry technically get the Dukedom of Cambridge? Although, I agree, it will probably be Clarence.

Well the Duke of Clarence was the heir to the heir of the throne. I thought William would get that title if he marries before the Queen dies, If he doesn't then I suppose Harry would get the title - that is, if Charles will still be giving dukedoms to second sons.

[crisiñaki]

Originally Posted by ysbel

Well the Duke of Clarence was the heir to the heir of the throne. I thought William would get that title if he marries before the Queen dies, If he doesn't then I suppose Harry would get the title - that is, if Charles will still be giving dukedoms to second sons.

What if William marries before his father become King? would he get a dukedom or has to wait till he can take the Duke of Cornwall? and if he gets a dukedom at marriage, would he be the Duke of Cornwall and _____ when his father gets the throne?

Thanks in advance for your answers