Titles and Styles of Harry, his Future Wife and Children

[miss whirley]

With the announcement of Cambridge baby #3, I think it even more likely that Harry will follow Edward & Sophie's example and choose to not label his children as 'Royal,' since George will now have 2 younger siblings to assume Royal responsibiliies when the time comes.
The York daughters have taken a lot of heat through the years, I'm sure all of the family are aware of the negative press that the girls are subjected to (not saying they've been wise in some choices thus giving fuel to the fire the press has created about them.) I imagine Harry would prefer to protect his own children from that if possible. Assuming they are born while his grandmother is Queen the children will be titled as children of a Duke anyway, it would be pretty simple to announce when Charles becomes King that Harry's children will remain titled as they always have been. Moreover, if The Queen outlives Charles, Harry's children would never be Prince/Princesses (unless Harry himself inexplicably became King.)

I agree. Harry is very close to the Yorks, so seeing all the grief they've been through, I think he'd be wise enough to consider his own children's future.

Though, I don't necessarily think Cambridge 3 was the deal breaker, I think it was probably the birth of Charlotte "the new spare".

 

[Abbigail]

Harry may request that his children be born with the title of HRH. If Harry asks his grandmother to issue specific LP's my guess is she would not say no.

I doubt he would that. If it happens, I think it would be more Charles or the Queen's idea based, perhaps, on the idea that Charles will be King sooner rather than later so it would make sense for Harry's children to be styled HRH at birth. I'm not sure I'd say that is likely, however.

 

[miss whirley]

Edward is an earl and not duke NOT because

1. he is not a popular member
2. he wasn't a full time working member
3. was further from the throne
4. Edward wanted to be an earl

There is only one reason he is not a duke, and that is because his father is alive. It is public knowledge from when they got married that he was to be Duke of Edinburgh. That was the desire of his parents, likely of his dad, that his title pass on to Edward. Since having a double dukedome hasn't been done in generations, they put a hold on making him a duke. Instead they made him an earl, a title that will be paired with Duke of Edinburgh when the time comes.

The queen is very traditional. All of her sons would have been a Duke on marriage as has been done by the monarchs before her. The exception was made with Edward not due to popularity, his position in line, his lack of duties. But simply due to the title they wished to give him.

Harry will be duke. Even if he was the most hated royal on earth and was in military never doing duties, he would be duke. It has nothing to do with his mother and his popularity. It has to do with him being a male line grandson whose father will be king.

I do think it was more Edward's decision, then any pressuring from his parents. At the time of his wedding it was reported that The Queen also gave him the option of Cambridge, but he opted for Edinburgh(in the future). Edward seems like the sentimental sort. Also Sophie is close to The Queen, so it's nice she'll get to be The Duchess of Edinburgh like The Queen was/is.

And you're completely right that role and the number of children has nothing to do with Harry getting a Dukedom. I'm really surprised some are trying to argue otherwise.

 

[jacqui24]

Harry may request that his children be born with the title of HRH. If Harry asks his grandmother to issue specific LP's my guess is she would not say no.

I have my doubts about that. I even think he might choose the route Edward went with once Charles is king and have his children be addressed as children of a Duke. It's a much better life for them that way. The York girls do get unfair criticism because of the awkward position they are in with their HRH status and attention, yet without being allowed to work for the Firm.

 

[JSH]

I do think it was more Edward's decision, then any pressuring from his parents.

I don't. I think the idea probably originated with Phillip. He is an aristocrat. He naturally wants to pass status and title to his children. Since his wife is a monarch, Phillip has had no chance to do that. Having the Duke of Edinburgh title recreated for one of his sons is his sole chance to "pass" something to one of his children. Indirectly, of course, but that is the only way it can be done. Charles will inherit it directly, but lose it as soon as his mother passes.

I also expect Edward very much liked the idea.

 

[Rhea6]

Even I think that Harry wouldn't want his children to be styled as HRH and would want them to pursue their own professional lives .

After Baby Cambridge #3 its obvious that until the 3 children are of age Harry would be of public interest but after that he'd be sidelined .
So Harry has a small bracket of time to make a difference before George , Charlotte etc take over . The sad truth is that the more children William and Kate have Harry's prominence will decrease so he'll definitely want his children to be out of the media glare .

 

[Osipi]

To date, there hasn't been anyone that has been "sidelined" really. Each royal has found their own niche in the charitable causes that they sponsor and work for. Each royal has their own certain areas in the "Firm" when they represent the Queen.

As time passes, when the Cambridge children are of age to start working as full time royals (25-30 years from now) with William most likely as King, I, myself see Harry, with his wife, being William's right hand man and still very active in both the "Firm" and his charitable works that will most likely even increase over time. He's not really even a full fledged working royal yet. His children may be very much needed unless Charles does remodel the monarchy where only the main line of the BRF are working royals.

That is why I think a good indication of how the monarchy will be in the future is how Harry and his bride (whomever she shall be) raise their children. The Queen may issue letters patent enabling them to be HRH from birth (or not even necessary if Charles is King). The Queen may announce when creating Harry a Duke, that his children will be raised as children of a Duke. The issue of Edward and Sophie's future children was announced on their wedding day.

We live in a world where things can change drastically overnight. I just really hope that there is still a monarchy when the Cambridge and Harry's kids reach adulthood and ready to take on royal roles. Even more, I sincerely hope there is still a human race alive on this planet. Who knows? Maybe we'll even get really, really lucky and the tabloids will disappear.

All of the above really doesn't have anything to do with the media or the public glare but its how the monarchy works and prospers.

 

[Curryong]

Yes Osipi. I too hope that the British tabloids disappear, and take most of the Tumblr and Twitter crowd with them! They're a blight. However, what will we do in another twenty or so years without DF photos?

 

[Dee Anna]

Even I think that Harry wouldn't want his children to be styled as HRH and would want them to pursue their own professional lives .

After Baby Cambridge #3 its obvious that until the 3 children are of age Harry would be of public interest but after that he'd be sidelined .
So Harry has a small bracket of time to make a difference before George , Charlotte etc take over . The sad truth is that the more children William and Kate have Harry's prominence will decrease so he'll definitely want his children to be out of the media glare .

I have absolutely no idea or opinion on Harry wanting his children to be HRH or not.

But I do not believe, how ever many children Wills and Kate have will impinge on Harry's popularity in the UK and abroad, especially where needed, in any way. Regardless of what his placement in terms of line, he is a true blue. ?

 

[Curryong]

That is very true, Dee Anna, and it's been reflected in opinion polls again and again.

 

[Osipi]

Yes Osipi. I too hope that the British tabloids disappear, and take most of the Tumblr and Twitter crowd with them! They're a blight. However, what will we do in another twenty or so years without DF photos?

Perhaps they'll be replaced by holographs. Royals can do multiple events at one time with holographs and reach everyone on the globe at one time without even leaving the palace. Even transporters to do engagements on the moon. Dang, I've been watching too many Star Trek reruns lately.

I do honestly think though that Harry will be a permanent fixture in the monarchy until the day he dies. If there is one thing the BRF is adamant is that there is continuity.

 

[NoShades]

Re how Harry will possibly be styled after marriage. The Queen has so far been orderly / hierarchical in how she confers (courtesy) titles on her family after marriage though it'd be nice for Harry to be made a Duke after he weds (I'd like that). I feel strongly the Queen may well want him styled one step below his older brother, in rank. Still, anything is possible and I believe Meghan would make a perfect Duchess. Countess also has a nice ring to it, too, come to think of it.

 

[miss whirley]

Even I think that Harry wouldn't want his children to be styled as HRH and would want them to pursue their own professional lives .

After Baby Cambridge #3 its obvious that until the 3 children are of age Harry would be of public interest but after that he'd be sidelined .
So Harry has a small bracket of time to make a difference before George , Charlotte etc take over . The sad truth is that the more children William and Kate have Harry's prominence will decrease so he'll definitely want his children to be out of the media glare .

Yes, 15 years from now the media glare will be kicking into high gear for the Cambridge young adults. And an older Harry will have slipped from the front pages with only sporadic coverage, unless he's creating scandals then the media will be over him like white on rice. Scandal doesn't age out, see Andrew and Sarah.

His children regardless of their HRH status should get a lot of media coverage as young adults. The HRH status will be more important when it comes to the media's tone. If they're non-HRHs, the tone will likely be about how independent, and down to earth they are, especially in comparison to stuffy royal cousins. On the flip side, if they're HRHs, the tone will likely be about how they're grasping minor royals out of touch with the modern times, and they're pathologically jealous of their royal cousins for being closer to the throne. And of course, how they're pushing grandpa Charles to give them an active spot in the firm.

 

[Osipi]

The tradition in the UK is that males in the royal family are created royal dukes on their wedding day. I don't see the Queen deviating from this at all or give Harry any kind of a "lesser" title than his brother. It just doesn't work like that.

As been stated before Edward was a one off thing with it intended that Edward be created the Duke of Edinburgh after the Queen and the DoE pass on. Edward will just become a royal duke on a different occasion than his wedding day. A duke is actually the highest ranking of a peer in the UK. Its interesting to note too that a prince is not a peer in the UK but the title "prince(ss) is used to denote a close relative of a monarch.

When the Queen (or the monarch) creates a royal duke, it is not a courtesy title. The Prince of Wales is not a courtesy title nor is The Princess Royal a courtesy title. Courtesy titles are those that are used by a spouse or a child of a peer or a royal. They take their titles and styles from the peer. Prince Michael of Kent is not a peer with any other title than "prince". Marie Christine takes her title and style from her husband and is therefore known as Princess Michael of Kent as a courtesy. If Harry wasn't to get any peerage upon his marriage, then Meghan would be Princess Henry of Wales.

The ins and outs of titles in the UK is a fascinating subject.

 

[miss whirley]

You covered it pretty well, I would just add that once Charles becomes King, Harry's title will slightly change, Prince Henry/Harry of Wales -> The Prince Henry/Harry.

 

[Osipi]

Thanks, Miss Whirley, for adding the information about the "The" part. I meant to add that to my post but got sidetracked and distracted.

 

[Rhea6]

Re how Harry will possibly be styled after marriage. The Queen has so far been orderly / hierarchical in how she confers (courtesy) titles on her family after marriage though it'd be nice for Harry to be made a Duke after he weds (I'd like that). I feel strongly the Queen may well want him styled one step below his older brother, in rank. Still, anything is possible and I believe Meghan would make a perfect Duchess. Countess also has a nice ring to it, too, come to think of it.

But when Charles is King , William I think will be made Prince of wales ? Or he may forgo the title n remain Duke of Cambridge.

The point is that William anyway will have a higher title / placement in the firm as it is . So if Harry is made a duke on his wedding then he will remain one forever .

 

[Osipi]

When Charles becomes King, William will then be The Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge. He will still keep those titles should Charles create him The Prince of Wales. One doesn't replace titles but adds onto them. Charles is still very much The Duke of Cornwall which is why Camilla has her title of The Duchess of Cornwall to use. She is also very much The Princess of Wales but has chosen to be styled with Charles' older title.

If it is created a duke, looks like a duke and walks like a duke, it will most certainly be a duke forevermore. Sorry... just had to do it and wake up my funny bone.

 

[Jacknch]

Please note that a number of posts that were simply back and forth arguments adding nothing of interest to the discussion have been deleted. If people wish to conduct a debate between themselves at the expense of the enjoyment of and interest in the thread by other members, they can do so by PM instead of disrupting the thread.

Since the topic of Prince Harry's future title drifted towards titles of the BRF in general, several recent posts have been moved to the http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f23/questions-about-british-styles-and-titles-258.html thread.

 

[NoShades]

But when Charles is King , William I think will be made Prince of wales ? Or he may forgo the title n remain Duke of Cambridge.

The point is that William anyway will have a higher title / placement in the firm as it is . So if Harry is made a duke on his wedding then he will remain one forever .

Hi, yes that's right - it's just from how I've studied the way the Queen confers titles on the Windsor males, it appeared to me she styles according to position of birth and in an orderly way. For example, the Prince of Wales, the Duke of York and so on. Yes, Charles has a couple of dukedoms, but first and foremost he is the Prince of Wales. And as it will likely be quite a while before there's a change of guard with regard to Charles' ascension to the throne, I'm not sure the Queen will feel it right that William and Harry along will their wives should hold the same rank & position at the same time. Especially in a very hierarchical system. I'm not sure I'm making any sense.

 

[NoShades]

Apologies, I'm trying to learn about royal titles and how they are conferred. So I was seeking more clarification since this is the correct thread, right?

 

[miss whirley]

Hi, yes that's right - it's just from how I've studied the way the Queen confers titles on the Windsor males, it appeared to me she styles according to position of birth and in an orderly way. For example, the Prince of Wales, the Duke of York and so on. Yes, Charles has a couple of dukedoms, but first and foremost he is the Prince of Wales. And as it will likely be quite a while before there's a change of guard with regard to Charles' ascension to the throne, I'm not sure the Queen will feel it right that William and Harry along will their wives should hold the same rank & position at the same time. Especially in a very hierarchical system. I'm not sure I'm making any sense.

I don't think it would bother her. Charles, Andrew and Edward all take precedence over William and Harry and that didn't stop her from giving W a ducal title.

 

[Jacknch]

Apologies, I'm trying to learn about royal titles and how they are conferred. So I was seeking more clarification since this is the correct thread, right?

No need to apologise - in the context of working out what style/title Harry will have, we can look at how other royals have been titled when they got married in this thread.

The question about Edward's title was specific to him and to titles in general so was moved over to the other thread.

For what it's worth, I do think Harry will be offered a Dukedom upon marriage - at least it would be my preference over an Earldom.

 

[Osipi]

Hi, yes that's right - it's just from how I've studied the way the Queen confers titles on the Windsor males, it appeared to me she styles according to position of birth and in an orderly way. For example, the Prince of Wales, the Duke of York and so on. Yes, Charles has a couple of dukedoms, but first and foremost he is the Prince of Wales. And as it will likely be quite a while before there's a change of guard with regard to Charles' ascension to the throne, I'm not sure the Queen will feel it right that William and Harry along will their wives should hold the same rank & position at the same time. Especially in a very hierarchical system. I'm not sure I'm making any sense.

Actually, being created a duke at the time of marriage, both William and Harry become peers of the UK. A duke is the highest ranking peerage in the UK so William and Harry would have equal rank and position in the peerage as royal dukes. Just like they both have the HRH honorific address and they both are Princes of the UK as grandchildren of the monarch.

Where William does have a higher status though is in the order of precedence. We'll see just how the order of precedence works should there be a televised royal wedding. Harry (and William if William is best man/supporter) will not be in that line up as they will enter with the bridal party.

 

[jacqui24]

Re how Harry will possibly be styled after marriage. The Queen has so far been orderly / hierarchical in how she confers (courtesy) titles on her family after marriage though it'd be nice for Harry to be made a Duke after he weds (I'd like that). I feel strongly the Queen may well want him styled one step below his older brother, in rank. Still, anything is possible and I believe Meghan would make a perfect Duchess. Countess also has a nice ring to it, too, come to think of it.

That's not true, until Charles becomes King, the Queen's children takes precedence over William even if William is higher in line to the throne. Edward's earldom and William's dukedom does NOT change that.

 

[Ish]

Hi, yes that's right - it's just from how I've studied the way the Queen confers titles on the Windsor males, it appeared to me she styles according to position of birth and in an orderly way. For example, the Prince of Wales, the Duke of York and so on. Yes, Charles has a couple of dukedoms, but first and foremost he is the Prince of Wales. And as it will likely be quite a while before there's a change of guard with regard to Charles' ascension to the throne, I'm not sure the Queen will feel it right that William and Harry along will their wives should hold the same rank & position at the same time. Especially in a very hierarchical system. I'm not sure I'm making any sense.

There is a hierarchical system within Dukedoms already...

The Queen has only granted one peerage to each of her children - Charles holds multiple titles, but his Dukedoms were all automatic, only Prince of Wales comes from his mother. That was a title that could only be conferred on him as it has rules about who can be Prince of Wales.

The Duke of York can be anyone. Traditionally it's the second son (but not always; we've seen it more in the last century because of availability, but the Hanovers did not always use it, nor the Stuarts). Edward wasn't given a lesser title because he is "less" than his brothers, but rather because they wanted to pass on the Duke of Edinburgh title (in a manner) when it's available to be recreated.

The same isn't true with Harry - there isn't some other title that they could want to create for him in time so he "inherits" (in a manner) a family title. Which is why it's logical that he'll be created a Duke when he marries.

Dukes themselves are ranked in order of when they were created - with royal Dukedoms given precedent over non-royal Dukedoms. So the Duke of York is above the Duke of Clarence, because the Duke of York was created in 1986, and the Duke of Cambridge was created in 2011. Harry's future Dukedom will be beneath both, as it'll be created later (likewise with Esward's future Dukedom).

 

[Skippyboo]

The date of creation doesn't really apply to royal Dukes. The Kent & Gloucester Dukedoms are older than Philip's, Andrew's and William's Dukedom, but the Dukes of Kent and Gloucesters don't have precedent over Philip, Andrew and William.

On paper Andrew, Edward and Anne are in higher precedence than William and Harry but that's not what we see happen in real life. William and Harry are higher than their Uncles and Aunt even without Charles present

 

[jacqui24]

The date of creation doesn't really apply to royal Dukes. The Kent & Gloucester Dukedoms are older than Philip's, Andrew's and William's Dukedom, but the Dukes of Kent and Gloucesters don't have precedent over Philip, Andrew and William.

On paper Andrew, Edward and Anne are in higher precedence than William and Harry but that's not what we see happen in real life. William and Harry are higher than their Uncles and Aunt even without Charles present

That's because everyone understand eventually it's the line of succession that matters. However, if they are all still really into curtsying and all that, then it'd matter. So Kate would have to curtsy to Sophie if both William and Edward are present. If William isn't present, then Kate would have to curtsy to the York princesses under the new guideline of blood princesses take precedence.

 

[NoShades]

I have absolutely no idea or opinion on Harry wanting his children to be HRH or not.

But I do not believe, how ever many children Wills and Kate have will impinge on Harry's popularity in the UK and abroad, especially where needed, in any way. Regardless of what his placement in terms of line, he is a true blue. ?

Quoted for truth

I don't think it would bother her. Charles, Andrew and Edward all take precedence over William and Harry and that didn't stop her from giving W a ducal title.

Oh I don't know. Could just be the Queen's way of helping Prince Charles put his house in order (in the right order) before his time comes to take over as a King ?

 

[jacqui24]

Oh I don't know. Could just be the Queen's way of helping Prince Charles put his house in order (in the right order) before his time comes to take over as a King ?

Are you implying the Queen's house isn't in the right order? If that's the case, she shouldn't be trying to put Charles' future household in order.

BTW, I have the utmost respect for the Queen, that was just to point out the flaw to that logic.