Titles and Styles of Harry, his Future Wife and Children

[Denville]

Perhaps she just wanted to give titles from the fringes of the UK to her sons.. and some of the Royal dukedoms were in use, when her first children were born, so she could not use them.
And it would NOT be a good idea to use Connaught again!!

 

[Curryong]

Yes, I said that 'Ireland is out' as far as today's royals are concerned. Of course, the first four sons of King George III were dead, including her own father, plus her cousin Charlotte, for Victoria to have become Queen at all. None of them had surviving issue.

She could have honoured her father, I suppose, by giving 'Kent' to one of her younger sons but she was very sentimental about her father's memory and wouldn't have done it.

She made a deliberate decision not to give York to her second son Alfred, I believe, as she wanted to honour Scotland. She and Albert were always fond of Scotland though Balmoral came later, and there was quite a cult of things Scottish at the time due to the popularity of the novels of Sir Walter Scott. So I think naming him after the Scottish capital was a deliberate choice.

The Dukedom of Albany had previously been given by several of the Hanoverians in conjunction with the Dukedom of York. None of the previous holders had left surviving children. Leopold, Queen Victoria's fourth and last son did and the Dukedom went down after his premature death to his son Chariie, who later inherited the reigning Dukedom of Saxe Coburg Gotha in Germany, where he lived for his adult life and became a Nazi.

 

[Denville]

Yup, he had sons, as I recall but only one of them made a non morganatic marriage,. and I shold not think that the tile would be restored. I just meant that some people dotn seem to understand that Ireland as a whole is not longer part of the UK and so Irish place names are out. I remember when I was a kid, the Duchess of Gloucesters son had the title Earl of Ulster, and that was a bit awkward

 

[Ish]

Yup, he had sons, as I recall but only one of them made a non morganatic marriage,. and I shold not think that the tile would be restored. I just meant that some people dotn seem to understand that Ireland as a whole is not longer part of the UK and so Irish place names are out. I remember when I was a kid, the Duchess of Gloucesters son had the title Earl of Ulster, and that was a bit awkward

Earl of Ulster is still one of the Duke of Gloucester's subsidiary titles and is used by courtesy by his eldest son. And why shouldn't it be? Ulster is primarily in Northern Ireland, which is part of the U.K.

William and Andrew both have Irish territorial designations in their titles; William as Baron Carrickfergus and Andrew as Baron Killyleagh. It's fair to expect that Harry will have his own Irish barony one day.

 

[Countessmeout]

Last I looked Northern Ireland is still part of the UK. Unless I missed a vote And the Duke's son is still the earl of Ulster. It is common for a subsidiary title to be Irish or Scottish, or both. A senior title being Irish I doubt will see again but William is Baron Carrickfergus. Andrew is Baron Killyleagh, The Duke of Kent is Baron Downpatrick. Like Ulster, all of them are in NI so nothing awkward.Connaught is not.

 

[Curryong]

When I said 'Ireland is out' in my former post I meant the Republic of Ireland. I know that Northern Ireland is still part of the U.K. So does Denville.

I see every nuance is going to have to be explained when having a conversation in future. As Denville lived in the Republic for many years I'd guarantee she knows all about Northern Ireland.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Might Prince Henry be created Earl of Holland? The name Holland in the title refers to the area of Lincolnshire known as Holland, not The Netherlands.

 

[Curryong]

I think that title would be very confusing to many Brits who don't differentiate between 'Holland' and the Netherlands. A lot would say "Why is Harry being given a Dutch title?"
Anyway, as the only other son of the Prince of Wales I think Harry is almost certain to get a Dukedom. He's not in the same place as Edward, who was given an earldom to be getting on with, but who will, in the fullness of time, become Duke of Edinburgh, as per the Queen's wishes.

 

[Countessmeout]

When I said 'Ireland is out' in my former post I meant the Republic of Ireland. I know that Northern Ireland is still part of the U.K. So does Denville.

I see every nuance is going to have to be explained when having a conversation in future. As Denville lived in the Republic for many years I'd guarantee she knows all about Northern Ireland.

Is there a bio thread to tell me a list of countries a poster has lived in Because obviously I should be aware a poster from London is from Ireland . I mean quite clearly a moron who missed it. I apologize for thee grevious error of not knowing the backgrounds of a postere

some people dotn seem to understand that Ireland as a whole is not longer part of the UK and so Irish place names are out. I remember when I was a kid, the Duchess of Gloucesters son had the title Earl of Ulster, and that was a bit awkward

Ireland as a whole refers to the island, both countries. So one should comprehend why 2 posters (ish said the same) had the impression. Add to that 'Ulster is akward' as 'Irish titles are out'

 

[Countessmeout]

Might Prince Henry be created Earl of Holland? The name Holland in the title refers to the area of Lincolnshire known as Holland, not The Netherlands.

While like other royals dukes he will have an Earl title, it is more likely his Earl will be Scottish. Duke X (English) Earl X (Scottish) Baron (N Ireland). If Sussex, they cant use the historical (well the one duke) subsidiary as they are used as Andrew's.

If they go Clarence, the subsidiary title of the last is out as it is in the Irish republic (Athlone). Instead of Duke of Clarence And Avondale, could do Duke of Clarencee. earl of Avondale. William IV was Clarence/St Andrews but the second is used by Kent.

Or they could create/choose new subsidiary of course. There are not many extinct Scottish earldoms

 

[Denville]

Last I looked Northern Ireland is still part of the UK. Unless I missed a vote And the Duke's son is still the earl of Ulster. It is common for a subsidiary title to be Irish or Scottish, or both. A senior title being Irish I doubt will see again but William is Baron Carrickfergus. Andrew is Baron Killyleagh, The Duke of Kent is Baron Downpatrick. Like Ulster, all of them are in NI so nothing awkward.Connaught is not.

You are not aware of Irish history then? that a large proportion of the population of N Ireland do not wish to be part of the UK, or that in fact there are only 6 counties of Ulster wchh are part of the UK?

When I said 'Ireland is out' in my former post I meant the Republic of Ireland. I know that Northern Ireland is still part of the U.K. So does Denville.

I see every nuance is going to have to be explained when having a conversation in future. As Denville lived in the Republic for many years I'd guarantee she knows all about Northern Ireland.

Thank you currying. I am actually Irish by birth.. I mentioned the Connaught thing because recently, on another forum, soemone mentioned Connaught as a possible royal dukedom so I realised that some people DONT know that the Republic of Ireland is a separate country and that there is a history of conflict, which would make it impossible to use a designation from the Republic's territory and even N Irish titles can be controversial

 

[Countessmeout]

No, wrong I simply comprehend the difference between political sentiment and historical fact. I deal in the latter, While my specialty is Scottish ( a term short of a masters) I am no light weight when it comes to Irish history (1/2 Irish, both North and republic, 1/4 English, other 1/4 been over here for centuries, no one is sure original).

North may not want to be, but for better or worse, they are the UK. That is historical and current fact. So no, 'all Ireland is not part of the UK' is bull.

Ish said the exact same thing where is your accusations to ish's lack of knowledge????

 

[Denville]

All Ireland is NOT part of the UK. the republic of Ireland has not been part of the UK for many years...Only the 6 counties are part of the UK and that may well change because as you know a large part of the population do not wish for this.. and the feeling is very strong. regardless of the rights or wrongs of it, it seems insensitive to me, to give a title that is going to cause controversy..

Yes, I.

The Dukedom of Albany had previously been given by several of the Hanoverians in conjunction with the Dukedom of York. None of the previous holders had left surviving children. Leopold, Queen Victoria's fourth and last son did and the Dukedom went down after his premature death to his son Chariie, who later inherited the reigning Dukedom of Saxe Coburg Gotha in Germany, where he lived for his adult life and became a Nazi.

Re Albany would it be possible for the dispute over the title to be settled so that it would become free again? Leopold's family inherited the Duchy of Saxe coburg and have now I imagine passed out of enlgish life, and are presumably private citzens..

 

[Curryong]

The Head of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha at the moment is HRH Andreas, Prince of S.C. and G. He's first cousin to the present King of Sweden and often pops up at family events (weddings etc) there. He was brought up in New Orleans after his parents divorced and his mother moved to the US. The family still owns castles, estates and property in Germany and Austria and Andreas administers them.

Under the Titles Deprivations Act of 1917 the legitimate lineal male heir could petition the British Crown for restoration of the peerage, but, as you say, most of Charlie's sons and grandsons married morganatically. The last one eligible to petition was Friedrich Josias, Andreas's father, but he made no attempt to do so before he died in 1998.

That's a real shame because again it's an old title associated (in previous creations) with the Scottish throne, and the British one. It sounds lovely too, and it would be suitable for Harry if it weren't in the outer darkness in abeyance. Too many of these fine old Dukedoms will no longer be associated with the British throne within a couple of generations from now (Kent, Gloucester) and here is a perfectly good one, connected to a Scottish locale, unable to be used.

 

[Skippyboo]

I have a question. The Duke of Albany is a British peerage. There is no such thing as a morganatic marriage in the UK. So why if the male line legitimate descent of Prince Leopold is a product of a morganatic marriage does it matter? Would not UK rules and the Letters Patent apply? As long as he is male line and not born out of wedlock, he should be still eligible to apply?


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[Lumutqueen]

All Ireland is NOT part of the UK. the republic of Ireland has not been part of the UK for many years...Only the 6 counties are part of the UK and that may well change because as you know a large part of the population do not wish for this.. and the feeling is very strong. regardless of the rights or wrongs of it, it seems insensitive to me, to give a title that is going to cause controversy..

As it relates to the issue of giving Henry an Irish title. Can you please provide me with some actual statistics that suggest Northern Ireland, would like to leave the United Kingdom?

Might I add that 6 counties of Ulster are UK and 3 are ROI. More is UK than ROI.

Having an Irish Baronetcy is tradition, and I doubt it'll change.

 

[Skippyboo]

I don't remember massive outrage over Baron Carrickfergus being created 5 years ago for William.


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[Denville]

I said that a large part of the population of N Ireland, would like to leave. Im not going to get into further argument about this, since It seems to annoy people and Im not here to get into rows, but to take my mind off a lot of worries, by a bit of amusing discussion...

 

[Curryong]

As far as the Dukedom of Albany is concerned, from all I've read the devil seems to be in the detail, that is the fine print of the 1917 Titles Deprivation Act. It appears that for decades the Princes of Saxe-Coburg Gotha were more than welcome to apply for a restoration of their Dukedom of Albany.

However their own House rules prevented several of them from doing so as they had contracted morganatic marriages, which meant that they had to give up their dynastic rights as heirs (to Saxe Coburg Gotha.)

The only one who didn't, Friedrich Josias, contracted an unequal marriage not a morganatic one, and later Andreas did the same (that is, his father gave him permission to wed.)

Neither of these gentlemen showed (have shown) any interest in retrieving their long-lost British Dukedom of Albany, but apparently the way the 1917 Act was written precludes anyone else from getting it either.

I suppose if Harry suddenly showed a huge interest in the Albany dukedom just before marrying, the Queen could have the 1917 Act amended, but at the moment it seems to be a case of letting sleeping dogs lie. As I said before it's a shame as this is a grand old peerage associated with the kingdom of Scotland.

 

[Rudolph]

I do wonder why parliament doesn't just revoke the original Letters Patent that created these titles in the first place.

Realistically, no British government is going to entertain a petition to have a Dukedom restored, so why not put an end to them.

I suppose though, given a Dukedom is only given to a member of the royal family, having the titles in suspended animation is just as good for the government.

It looks like Sussex for Harry, unless he decides to get a little creative.

 

[Ish]

The title Duke of Albany is in no way restricted by the House Rules of the Saxe Coburgs and Gotha's. It is a British title and it's inheritance is determined by the LPs which created the title.

The morganatic marriages that come into play with the title Duke of S-C&G don't come into play with the title DoA.

Charles Edward, Duke of S-C&G and DoA, had 2 sons who outlived him - elder Johann Leopold and younger Friedrich Josias (in between them was also a son who didn't outlive CE and two daughters).

JL married morganatic ally twice, renouncing his succession rights to S-C&G, but not to being DoA. However, JL married in contravention to the Royal Marriages Act 1772, so while he was still eligible to the DoA, his sons Ernst Leopold and Peter Albert are removed from the succession to the DoA title.

FJ married equally (twice) and inherited his father's claim to S-C&G. He also outlived his brother, and so inherited his claim to DoA. However, he too didn't get permission to marry under the RMA 1772, so his sons Andreas and Adrian are not included in the succession.

So, really, FJ was the last person who could claim the title DoA. Which technically leaves it open.

The title that isn't open because of this issue is actually the Duke of Cumberland - Ernst Augustus, 5th son of George III, was created Duke of Cumberland and Teviotdale. Then, after William IV's death EA became King of Hanover while his niece became Queen of the U.K. In succession his son, George, and grandson, Ernst Augustus II, inherited both Kingdom and DoC title (and was deprived of both because of the war). EAII's son, EAIII, married with permission of the British monarch, retaining his claim to the DoC. As did m, I believe his son, EAIV, and the current claimant, Ernst August V. I would suspect that EAV's son, (EAVI) also gained permission from the Queen before his marriage.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I would like to see Harry as HRH The Duke of Clarence and have his residence at Clarence House. Would be nice to see the mansion and the peerage title connected.

The title Duke of Albany is in no way restricted by the House Rules of the Saxe Coburgs and Gotha's. It is a British title and it's inheritance is determined by the LPs which created the title.

The morganatic marriages that come into play with the title Duke of S-C&G don't come into play with the title DoA.

Charles Edward, Duke of S-C&G and DoA, had 2 sons who outlived him - elder Johann Leopold and younger Friedrich Josias (in between them was also a son who didn't outlive CE and two daughters).

JL married morganatic ally twice, renouncing his succession rights to S-C&G, but not to being DoA. However, JL married in contravention to the Royal Marriages Act 1772, so while he was still eligible to the DoA, his sons Ernst Leopold and Peter Albert are removed from the succession to the DoA title.

FJ married equally (twice) and inherited his father's claim to S-C&G. He also outlived his brother, and so inherited his claim to DoA. However, he too didn't get permission to marry under the RMA 1772, so his sons Andreas and Adrian are not included in the succession.

[...]

That the prince looses his place in the line of succession, okay, but by my understanding the Royal Marriages Act has nothing to do with the peerage titles. Would the Earl of St Andrews have married aganist the workings of the Royal Marriages Act, he would cease to be a successor but remains the Heir to his father's titles, isn't it?

How could Leopold and his brother Andreas then loose their rights on the Dukedom of Albany because of their father's marriage contra the Royal Marriages Act? That can not be because of his father's marriage as the Letters Patent usually makes the peerage titles hereditary for the Heirs of the Body Male without furtherer conditions?

 

[Rudolph]

I don't think it does. As long as someone is the lawful male heir, he inherits the Dukedom.

The RMA doesn't govern peerages as far as I know.

 

[Ish]

The RMA doesn't govern peerages, but it does govern (or did) what marriages were recognized in British law, and by extension which children were recognized as legitimate.

Johann Leopold and Friedrich Josias both married against the RMA, therefore their marriages aren't valid in British law, making their children under British law illegitimate. Illegitimate children have no succession rights, be it to a peerage or royal title.

That the prince looses his place in the line of succession, okay, but by my understanding the Royal Marriages Act has nothing to do with the peerage titles. Would the Earl of St Andrews have married aganist the workings of the Royal Marriages Act, he would cease to be a successor but remains the Heir to his father's titles, isn't it?

The Earl of St Andrews would have remained his father's successor, but his children would have been illegitimate because his marriage wouldn't have been legal.

Evidence of this:
- Prince Augustus Frederick, Duke of Sussex
- Prince George, Duke of Cambridge

How could Leopold and his brother Andreas then loose their rights on the Dukedom of Albany because of their father's marriage contra the Royal Marriages Act? That can not be because of his father's marriage as the Letters Patent usually makes the peerage titles hereditary for the Heirs of the Body Male without furtherer conditions?

You're mixing names here.

- Prince Leopold, Duke of Albany was the son of Queen Victoria
- Prince Charles Edward, Duke of S-C&G was his
- Johann Leopold, Hereditary Prince of S-C&G was CE's eldest son
- Ernst Leopold was his eldest son (his son, Hubertus, would be the claimant to DoA today, if such a claim were valid)
- Peter is his younger son
- Friedrich Josias was CE's youngest son
- Andreas (current claimant to S-C&E) is his eldest son
- Adrian is his youngest son

 

[Denville]

As far as the Dukedom of Albany is concerned, from all I've read the devil seems to be in the detail, that is the fine print of the 1917 Titles Deprivation Act. It appears that for decades the Princes of Saxe-Coburg Gotha were more than welcome to apply for a restoration of their Dukedom of Albany.

kingdom of Scotland.

They coudnt agree with the queen that they are going to give up any claim and then it would revert to the Crown?

I would like to see Harry as HRH The Duke of Clarence and have his residence at Clarence House. Would be nice to see the mansion and the peerage title connected.

I associate the Clarence title with poor old Eddy, who was really a potential disaster for the RF, and the previous Duke of Clar was WIlliam IV, who wasn't exactly a shining light either, though a good old bloke and not a bad king..
I think Sussex is all that is left.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

That can not be because of his father's marriage as the Letters Patent usually makes the peerage titles hereditary for the Heirs of the Body Male without furtherer conditions?

I don't think it does. As long as someone is the lawful male heir, he inherits the Dukedom.

Most British peerages were created with the remainder "male heirs of the body, lawfully begotten". "Lawfully begotten" means "legitimate" and thus, as Ish said, a son who was born out of wedlock (in British law) cannot inherit a British peerage.

Royal Marriages Act 1772 (repealed)

However, the Succession to the Crown Act 2013 retroactively legitimizes some of the descendants who were illegitimate under the RMA.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Prince Henry could be given the title of Duke of Ainsworth.

 

[Curryong]

Why? Royal Dukes, sons of Kings and Queens, are invariably given dukedoms with at least some Royal history behind them. The only monarchs who changed the rules a bit were King George III, who had masses of sons, and Queen Victoria, who wished to disassociate her own family from her dissolute uncles. Neither case applies to Harry.

 

[Hans-Rickard]

I think Harry will be created Duke of Clarence and Earl of Ross. I think he will recive grand titles with long royal history as the 2:nd son and brother to future heads of state.

If he ever marry and have kids, i think they will be H.R.H Prince / Princess of Clarence as grandchildren to King Charles. Their children won't get Royal titles.

 

[Curryong]

You may be correct Hans, but I don't think so. The Dukedom of Clarence has an awful Royal history. The future Richard III's brother George Duke of Clarence was disposed of in the Tower, by fair means or foul, while King William 1V as Duke of Clarence did nothing much in a very long naval career except befriend Nelson and produce ten children with his actress girlfriend.

King George V's elder brother died prematurely from pneumonia, causing grief to parents, brother, other siblings and fiancée . Nothing there really to inspire the Queen or perhaps Charles to give this Dukedom a new airing. I think it's almost certain to be the Dukedom of Sussex, but who really knows.