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  #1801  
Old 09-29-2017, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile View Post
Everything sounds right except Prince isn't a courtesy title, he is a prince, and even if Harry gets the title Duke of X, he is still a Prince.
Thanks!

So - can someone explain what a courtesy title is? I thought I read somewhere in the recent pages of this thread that someone had a courtesy title?
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  #1802  
Old 09-29-2017, 11:51 PM
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Another thing is that if Charles is King, Harry would be The Prince Henry, Duke of X. William would be The Prince William, Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge and (if Charles decides to created his son) The Prince of Wales.

Meghan and Kate most likely will continue to use The Duchess of X and The Duchess of Cornwall and Cambridge. Neither woman would ever use her first name in her style unless they divorce. Examples of that is Diana, Princess of Wales and Sarah, Duchess of York. No "the" in the styles as it denotes that they were *a* Duchess of so and so.

Titles and styles are very confusing but oh so very interesting. To keep this on track and just talking about Harry's titles, there is also another thread chock full of information on British Titles and Styles. Enjoy!

Questions about British Styles and Titles
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  #1803  
Old 09-29-2017, 11:55 PM
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But why does Harry have to get a dukedom when he marries? Can't he just be a prince?
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  #1804  
Old 09-30-2017, 12:06 AM
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In theory Harry could just still be a Prince though that would be a stunningly rude thing to do after his grandmother offers a dukedom, as she undoubtedly will before his wedding day. It has just become a tradition over the centuries for the sons and grandsons of the sovereign to be given Royal dukedoms, not always on their wedding days. That particular tradition appears to have begun with the present Queen.

Just to add to the general confusion, here is an explanation of UK courtesy titles and their context. It is from wiki but it is accurate for once!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cour...United_Kingdom
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  #1805  
Old 09-30-2017, 12:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FashionMaven View Post
Thanks!



So - can someone explain what a courtesy title is? I thought I read somewhere in the recent pages of this thread that someone had a courtesy title?


A courtesy title is a title someone uses by courtesy because they're related to someone else, in contrast to a title that they hold in their own right.

So, if Meghan and Harry married his title would be HRH Prince Henry, The Duke of X - all titles he holds in his own right - while she would be titled by courtesy HRH Princess Henry, The Duchess of X - a title she uses because of who her husband is.
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  #1806  
Old 09-30-2017, 12:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scriptgirl View Post
But why does Harry have to get a dukedom when he marries? Can't he just be a prince?


In theory yes, but it would be a break of tradition.

British royal tradition is that the sons of the monarch (and the sons of the heir) are given Dukedoms. In more recent tradition the title has been conferred on marriage, but the tradition literally goes back to the first dukedoms in the reign of Edward III.
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  #1807  
Old 09-30-2017, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scriptgirl View Post
But why does Harry have to get a dukedom when he marries? Can't he just be a prince?
At the moment Harry is a 'commoner'. Becoming a Duke would make him a peer of the realm.

Queen Victoria even asked her PM this exact question and the answer was that the government of the day didn't want them eligible to sit in the House of Commons - which currently Harry is entitled to do. William was until his wedding day when he was promoted from commoner to peer of the realm.

Being a prince also means his wife would be known as Princess Henry rather than the Duchess of xxx. Look at the titles of the Princes in the UK today:

Philip - HRH The Duke of Edinburgh - wife HM The Queen but before her accession HRH The Princess Elizabeth, The Duchess of Edinburgh

Charles - HRH The Prince of Wales (in Scotland HRH The Prince Charles, Duke of Rothesay) - wife HRH The Duchess of Cornwall (remember that Charles became Duke of Cornwall in 1952

William - HRH The Duke of Cambridge - wife HRH The Duchess of Cambridge

Harry - HRH Prince Henry of Wales

Andrew - HRH The Duke of York - wife, when married - HRH The Duchess of York - now - Sarah, Duchess of York

Edward - HRH The Earl of Wessex - wife HRH The Countess of Wessex

Richard - HRH The Duke of Gloucester - wife HRH the Duchess of Gloucester but when they first married - HRH Princess Richard of Gloucester

Edward - HRH The Duke of Kent - wife HRH the Duchess of Kent

Michael - HRH Prince Michael of Kent - wife HRH Princess Michael of Kent.

ALL wives in the UK take the styles and titles from their husbands or their fathers so wives of princes aren't Princess own name but rather Princess husband's name.

Only princesses born are Princess with their names.
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  #1808  
Old 09-30-2017, 12:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
A courtesy title is a title someone uses by courtesy because they're related to someone else, in contrast to a title that they hold in their own right.

So, if Meghan and Harry married his title would be HRH Prince Henry, The Duke of X - all titles he holds in his own right - while she would be titled by courtesy HRH Princess Henry, The Duchess of X - a title she uses because of who her husband is.
Oooh thank you!

Now that makes sense. Kinda like a wife becoming Mrs. Firstname Lastname of her husband's? In this case HRH = Mrs. and Princess Henry, The Duchess of X is equivalent to Firstname Lastname?

Hope what I said makes sense.
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  #1809  
Old 09-30-2017, 12:21 AM
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Edward is the Earl of Wessex, a substantive peerage he was given by the Queen. His wife is, by courtesy, the Countess of Wessex, as the Queen didn't grant her the title. Their son takes Edward's subsidiary title, Viscount Severn, as a courtesy.

All peers' heirs hold courtesy titles, subsidiary (junior) to their father's title. They aren't peers in their own right. Their titles are held by courtesy. In the old days when there were several heirs to Dukes etc in Parliament they were allowed to sit in the House of Commons, as though they had titles they were not peers.
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  #1810  
Old 09-30-2017, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FashionMaven View Post
Oooh thank you!



Now that makes sense. Kinda like a wife becoming Mrs. Firstname Lastname of her husband's? In this case HRH = Mrs. and Princess Henry, The Duchess of X is equivalent to Firstname Lastname?



Hope what I said makes sense.


Correct!

I would argue that Prince/Princess and Duke/Duchess is more equivalent to Mr/Mrs but the basics are the same.
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  #1811  
Old 09-30-2017, 12:47 AM
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I thought Edward's son was Viscount Severn? Thank you for explaining this.
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  #1812  
Old 09-30-2017, 01:01 AM
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Yes, Edward's subsidiary title is Viscount Severn, not Avon. His son, James, uses Viscount Severn as his courtesy title.
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  #1813  
Old 09-30-2017, 01:09 AM
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Silly me!! Yes, it is. I've corrected that in my post. Thanks everyone!
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  #1814  
Old 09-30-2017, 01:15 AM
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I think there's a key point that's been implied but not stated: members of the peerage use their highest title, and a Royal Dukedom title outranks a non-peerage Prince title. The one exception is territorial -- when HRH The Prince of Wales is referred to as The Duke of Rothsay when in Scotland, for example.

This underlyes what Curryong was saying when she explained that it would be rude to go by Prince Harry if the monarch bestows a Royal Dukedom on him at his marriage.

If you look at official royal communications, titles like Prince Charles, Prince William, etc are never used. The KP twitter will refer to William as, first, The Duke of Cambridge and then, in subsequent tweets about the same event, either HRH or The Duke. If you look at this press release about Anne (https://www.royal.uk/princess-royal-visits-peru) she is referred to as The Princess Royal, The Princess, and HRH. Never Princess Anne.

"Prince/Princess Name" is used by newspapers and people because it's familiar, but it's not their appropriate title anymore, once they're granted a higher one.

I'd actually argue that for William, for example, it's not correct to say that it's "Prince William, Duke of Cambridge". He's The Duke of Cambridge, whom people happen to call Prince William. (This standard colloquial use is one of the reasons there's so much awkwardness around Catherine's naming, because The Duchess of Cambridge is a mouthful, "Princess Catherine" is just wrong, and "Princess William" is just awful.)

(Also, it's why it was rude of the Daily Mail to refer to Joe Biden's wife as "Mrs. Biden" in the article about tonight's basketball, since Dr. Biden holds a doctoral degree -- it's her highest title, not Mrs.)
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  #1815  
Old 09-30-2017, 01:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hel View Post


(Also, it's why it was rude of the Daily Mail to refer to Joe Biden's wife as "Mrs. Biden" in the article about tonight's basketball, since Dr. Biden holds a doctoral degree -- it's her highest title, not Mrs.)
Did she earn a doctoral degree in her own right? If not then she isn't entitled to be Dr Biden.

Dr isn't a 'title' but a level of degrees and so a Dr - whether it is someone who has earnt it via studying medicine, dentistry, vet science or studying to the highest degree level has a degree and not a title. It would be the same thing as referring to the wife of an officer in the military by their husband's rank e.g. Major and Major Biden - no - Major and Mrs Biden.

One is a status bestowed while the other is a title/rank earned. The former is shared - in the same way as a husband shares his name with his wife - while the latter is for the person who earned it alone.
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  #1816  
Old 09-30-2017, 01:42 AM
hel hel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Did she earn a doctoral degree in her own right? If not then she isn't entitled to be Dr Biden.

Dr isn't a 'title' but a level of degrees and so a Dr - whether it is someone who has earnt it via studying medicine, dentistry, vet science or studying to the highest degree level has a degree and not a title. It would be the same thing as referring to the wife of an officer in the military by their husband's rank e.g. Major and Major Biden - no - Major and Mrs Biden.

One is a status bestowed while the other is a title/rank earned. The former is shared - in the same way as a husband shares his name with his wife - while the latter is for the person who earned it alone.
When I said "Dr. Biden holds a doctoral degree" I meant Dr. Jill Jacobs-Biden.

Biden later returned to school for her doctoral degree, studying under her birth name, Jill Jacobs. In January 2007, at age 55, she received a Doctor of Education in educational leadership from the University of Delaware. Her dissertation, Student Retention at the Community College: Meeting Students' Needs, was published under the name Jill Jacobs-Biden.

They are properly Vice-President Joe Biden and Dr. Biden, is my understanding.
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  #1817  
Old 09-30-2017, 02:31 AM
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Originally Posted by hel View Post
When I said "Dr. Biden holds a doctoral degree" I meant Dr. Jill Jacobs-Biden.

Biden later returned to school for her doctoral degree, studying under her birth name, Jill Jacobs. In January 2007, at age 55, she received a Doctor of Education in educational leadership from the University of Delaware. Her dissertation, Student Retention at the Community College: Meeting Students' Needs, was published under the name Jill Jacobs-Biden.

They are properly Vice-President Joe Biden and Dr. Biden, is my understanding.
Fair enough.

That is why I asked if she had a doctorate in her own right - she does.

I thought you were saying he had the doctorate and that she should be called Dr as a result.
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  #1818  
Old 09-30-2017, 05:16 PM
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‘Prince’ is a courtesy title in Britain as it simple denotes a degree of relation to the sovereign.

It’s not a substantive title and the sovereign is free to limit it as he/she sees fit.

This style "is purely a courtesy and the holders of that title remain commoners until they are raised to the Peerage, the only exception being the eldest son of the Sovereign who at birth or, as in the case of Prince Charles, at his mother's accession to the Throne, immediately becomes Duke of Cornwall"

(H. Austin Strutt, assistant under-secretary of state, in a memo dated June 17th, 1954 prepared for the Home Secretary; HO 286/50).
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  #1819  
Old 09-30-2017, 06:36 PM
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Since people are asking about the 'Duke' title, I offer this video which discusses the subject of royal dukes, and British dukes who were bestowed with the title and passed it down to their heirs. The ins and outs of the whole complicated issue of dukedoms is quite fascinating and entertaining:



Of course, please move to the appropriate thread if not considered apropos here.
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  #1820  
Old 10-01-2017, 02:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
‘Prince’ is a courtesy title in Britain as it simple denotes a degree of relation to the sovereign.

It’s not a substantive title and the sovereign is free to limit it as he/she sees fit.

This style "is purely a courtesy and the holders of that title remain commoners until they are raised to the Peerage, the only exception being the eldest son of the Sovereign who at birth or, as in the case of Prince Charles, at his mother's accession to the Throne, immediately becomes Duke of Cornwall"

(H. Austin Strutt, assistant under-secretary of state, in a memo dated June 17th, 1954 prepared for the Home Secretary; HO 286/50).
I never knew this. "Prince/ss" isn't a substantive title and is instead a courtesy title?

And thanks for this explanation - the concept of Princes/sses being "commoners" until they are granted a peerage and carrying the title of Prince/ss before that now makes a whole lot more sense. Now I get what people were saying when they said that the Prince title was about degree of relation to the sovereign.

I'm learning so much! You guys are all great.

Wait - does getting a Peerage impact the different kinds of charity work royals can do?
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