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  #1681  
Old 09-17-2017, 10:24 AM
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Titles and Styles of Harry, his Future Wife and Children

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Originally Posted by angieuk View Post
So is the situation this way?

Prince George of Cambridge has 2 sons; both sons marry; only 1 wife is a Princess; the other is a Duchess.

Harry's children have 2 sons; both they're wives, are Duchesses; but their children remain Lord or Lady.

So if Harry's title is Duke of Sussex.
So Harry's grandchildren are Lady Jane Sussex?

But so confusing as George V's Sons wives were:

Princess Alice, Princess Marina? Excluding Wallace Simpson.

Daughters inherit only the LADY title; even with the new succession law?


Prince George is going to be King. All his children will be HRH Prince or HRH Princess.

Only Harry's children can be HRH Prince/Princess. The eldest son will inherit Harry's Dukedom. Harry's grandchildren will be like the children of the Duke of Kent and Duke of Gloucester, the eldest son of the eldest son gets a courtesy title and then inherits the Dukedom, rest are Lord and Lady if they descend from a male line. Harry's daughters pass nothing down.

So Harry -Duke of Sussex, his kids Ron and Hermione are HRH Prince Ron of Sussex and HRH Princess Hermione of Sussex . Since Hermione is a female, no titles for her kids unless her husband has a title to pass. HRH Prince Ron will become HRH Duke of Sussex when his father dies, Ron has 2 kids: none are HRHs. The boy is Arthur, Earl of Chudley and the girl is Lady Molly Mountbatten Windsor. Arthur will become the Duke in time.

The scenario is totally different for William and George's descendants because W & G will be monarchs. Harry isn't so his descendants will follow like the Duke of Kents and Gloucesters are.

As for the spouses, Kate is Duchess of Cambridge but also Princess William. The same with Harry's wife.

Princess Marina was a Greek and Danish Princess before she married the Duke of Kent. The Queen allowed The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester to be referred to as Princess Alice to avoid confusion with her Daughter in the Law, HRH The Duchess of Gloucester. Alice wasn't a princess in her own right but was one based on her marriage. Alice was the daughter of a Duke not born a Princess.
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  #1682  
Old 09-17-2017, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
That will never, ever happen. Diana was *a* Princess of Wales. There were many Princesses of Wales before her and there will be many more after her. It is a title that is part and parcel of being married to the Prince of Wales and that has been a designated position in the British Royal Family since 1301

From Wikipedia:

The title was recreated in 1301 for Edward of Caernarfon, the future Edward II. It was the first time the eldest son of the King of England was invested as Prince of Wales, making Edward II the first of the current line of Princes of Wales, of which His Royal Highness is the 21st.
That's as may be. The only point I was making is it was not an automatic title. Charles did not become Prince of Wales when Elizabeth became Queen, but was a title bestowed on him by her at a much later date. Regardless of how a sure thing it may be for the Heir Apparent, it is still the Monarch who decides.
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  #1683  
Old 09-17-2017, 11:33 AM
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Right. Charles could very well, as within his right of his will and pleasure, decide that because his reign will be a relatively short one, decide against creating William The Prince of Wales and leave it to William to do that for his oldest son, George when William is king.

This is probably not the case and Charles will happily create William with the PoW title but its at the will and pleasure of the monarch. I seriously doubt though that we'll get the pageantry of the investiture like Charles did though in Wales. It would be a wonderful thing to see though wouldn't it?
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  #1684  
Old 09-17-2017, 11:49 AM
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Titles and Styles of Harry, his Future Wife and Children

The same thing with a peerage for Harry (since this is the Harry title and style thread) The Queen or King Charles III doesn't have to give Harry any peerage. It's highly unlikely just like it's highly unlikely that Charles would not create William Prince of Wales.
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  #1685  
Old 09-17-2017, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angieuk View Post
So is the situation this way?

Prince George of Cambridge has 2 sons; both sons marry; only 1 wife is a Princess; the other is a Duchess.

Harry's children have 2 sons; both they're wives, are Duchesses; but their children remain Lord or Lady.

So if Harry's title is Duke of Sussex.
So Harry's grandchildren are Lady Jane Sussex?

But so confusing as George V's Sons wives were:

Princess Alice, Princess Marina? Excluding Wallace Simpson.

Daughters inherit only the LADY title; even with the new succession law?
Princess Alice and Marina were not Princesses in their own right in the UK until they were widowed. Marina was born a Princess, though in the UK she wasn't normally entitled to use her old title. But when they were widows, and faced with being dowager duchess, they were allowed to be addressed as such.

As the current rules and precedence stands:

As male line grandchildren of the sovereign, well when Charles is king, all of William and Harry's kids are HRH Prince or Princess of Great Britain.

Harry will be like the duke of Kent (the current dukes father). While all of his children will be HRH Prince x, none will be made duke or duchess in their own right on marriage (unless Charles changes this). His eldest son will inherit his dukedome (like the current duke of kent). Say he had a son Philip. Philip would be HRH Prince Philip, Earl of x while his father was alive. And his children would be titled as the kids of an earl (Harry's eldest grandson would hold his baronetcy title as a courtesy). So if Harry was Duke of Sussex, Earl of Ross, Baron x, his eldest son Philip woult be by courtesy earl of ross, and his grandson would be Baron X. The children of any younger children of Harry would be as Princess Alexandra and Prince Michael. They would be HRH Prince/ss X but the children of a son would simply be like Freddie and Gabriella, Lord and Lady. And their children would have no titles.

William's children, at least sons, will be like him and his brother, granted a dukedom on marriage. And the same pattern will continue. If baby three is Prince Arthur lets say, he will be made Duke x on marriage. His children will be HRH, but only his eldest son will have a peerage, his father's one day.
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  #1686  
Old 09-17-2017, 12:49 PM
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Titles and Styles of Harry, his Future Wife and Children

The children of a Royal Peer do not use a courtesy title if they are a HRH Prince. The eldest son of Prince Henry Duke of Gloucester was just HRH Prince William of Gloucester. He didn't use the Earl of Ulster as a courtesy title because he was HRH Prince. So Harry's son would be just HRH Prince Name of Territory until he inherits the peerage. Same thing with Charles, he never used Philip's secondary title as a courtesy title from his birth to ascention of the Queen. James Wessex only uses a courtesy title because the decision not to use HRH Prince/Princess for him and his sister
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  #1687  
Old 09-17-2017, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
Princess Alice and Marina were not Princesses in their own right in the UK until they were widowed. Marina was born a Princess, though in the UK she wasn't normally entitled to use her old title. But when they were widows, and faced with being dowager duchess, they were made princess in their own right by Elizabeth.

The Queen didn't make Alice and Marina Princesses of the UK in their own right, she just granted them permission to be known as Princess Alice and Princess Marina, instead of as the Dowager Duchess of Gloucester and the Dowager Duchess of Kent.

I've always kind of suspected that what happened is Marina made it known that she was going to go by Princess Marina, and the Queen consented instead of creating a scandal. Then, when Alice was in a similar situation the Queen decided to allow the same to happen.
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  #1688  
Old 09-17-2017, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Mirabel View Post
I think it's because Princess Alice and Princess Marina were born princesses, they had their own titles so did not become princesses when they married.
They were not born Princesses. Marina was a Princess of Greece.. but Alice was the daughter of a Duke and her title was Lady Alice Montague Douglas Scott. She was given the titel of Princess Alice, in later life as a reward for a long life of royal service and to distinguish her from her daugther in law the new Duchess of Gloucester.. Marina wasn't a British princess by birth but she too was allowed to call herself Princess marina, Duchess of Kent, to distinguish her from her daughter in Law. Both of htem DID become Princesses when they married as they married British Princes.
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  #1689  
Old 09-17-2017, 03:22 PM
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I would support Harry's decision, if he were to follow his uncle Edward's path, and choose to have his children drop their HRH status. He and Edward, regardless of how "unpopular" Edward is, are in/will be in the same position as the youngest child of the Monarch. Edward could see his children had no royal role in the future, which makes me think the discussion of a slimmed down monarchy had been brought up before he even got engaged, so he and Sophie decided to drop their children's HRH status. At the time of their marriage the York were sisters were only children so no one could have predicted the press they would receive as adults about how many holidays they have or how little work they apparently do. Edward obviously had the foresight to realise his children aren't needed so was giving them a helping hand.

Harry will likely see the difference his two older cousins and two youngest cousins' childhoods and early years have been, that he may choose this lifestyle for them. They will of course always be more "popular" than Louise or James simply because they're Harry's children but in the long run, they will be moved further and further down the line of succession and less important.
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  #1690  
Old 09-17-2017, 03:30 PM
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I'm sure Harry wotn want his children not to be known by royal titles. he and his wife will certainly be required to do royal duties, (so is Edward) and his children may well want to/hope to be active royals when they are grown up. If they're NOT required, they can just go on as ordinary people and take jobs if they want to and not use their titles in the workplace.
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  #1691  
Old 09-17-2017, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
They were not born Princesses. Marina was a Princess of Greece.. but Alice was the daughter of a Duke and her title was Lady Alice Montague Douglas Scott. She was given the titel of Princess Alice, in later life as a reward for a long life of royal service and to distinguish her from her daugther in law the new Duchess of Gloucester.. Marina wasn't a British princess by birth but she too was allowed to call herself Princess marina, Duchess of Kent, to distinguish her from her daughter in Law. Both of htem DID become Princesses when they married as they married British Princes.
Sorry, I was thinking of Princess Alice of Battenberg instead of the Duchess of Gloucester.
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  #1692  
Old 09-17-2017, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
I'm sure Harry wotn want his children not to be known by royal titles. he and his wife will certainly be required to do royal duties, (so is Edward) and his children may well want to/hope to be active royals when they are grown up. If they're NOT required, they can just go on as ordinary people and take jobs if they want to and not use their titles in the workplace.
It's not as easy as "not using their titles" in the workplace as we can see with the York sisters and even Edward and Sophie to an extent. They were seen to be "using their status" which Harry's children may also be seen to be doing.
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  #1693  
Old 09-17-2017, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Mirabel View Post
Sorry, I was thinking of Princess Alice of Battenberg instead of the Duchess of Gloucester.
do you mean Pr Philip's Mother? She married a Greek Prince, so I don't know what she has to do with British titles
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  #1694  
Old 09-17-2017, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
I'm sure Harry wotn want his children not to be known by royal titles. he and his wife will certainly be required to do royal duties, (so is Edward) and his children may well want to/hope to be active royals when they are grown up. If they're NOT required, they can just go on as ordinary people and take jobs if they want to and not use their titles in the workplace.
The fact that even the York princesses aren't required for duty in the Firm today makes it unlikely Harry's future children will be working royals given Charles's desire to slim down. And I don't see that changing in the future. HRH is far more of a shackle than privilege if one is trying to live a normal life with a normal job. Criticism is there no matter what happens.
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  #1695  
Old 09-17-2017, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by jacqui24 View Post
The fact that even the York princesses aren't required for duty in the Firm today makes it unlikely Harry's future children will be working royals given Charles's desire to slim down. And I don't see that changing in the future. HRH is far more of a shackle than privilege if one is trying to live a normal life with a normal job. Criticism is there no matter what happens.
This is a huge assumption, though. First, we don't actually know that Charles desires to slim down the monarchy. It's been reported for years and is now taken as a fact, but there isn't any actual statement from a named source supporting it.

Second, the York princesses not being required for duty at this point could be attributed to a number of reasons - one of the big ones being that they're younger than William and Harry and not in the direct line. Given as William is just now going full time it's ridiculous to think that the Yorks might be doing more duties were it not for Charles' alleged desire for slimming down.

Thirdly, we have absolutely no idea what the monarchy is going to look like in the future. We can make some decent guesses about what will happen when Charles is king, but when William or George are? It's really hard to say that Harry's children won't be needed for royal duties when we don't really know what the world of royal duties will look in twenty, thirty years times - once the Queen, her cousins, and her children have all retired/passed on.
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  #1696  
Old 09-18-2017, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by angieuk View Post
So is the situation this way?

Prince George of Cambridge has 2 sons; both sons marry; only 1 wife is a Princess; the other is a Duchess.

Harry's children have 2 sons; both they're wives, are Duchesses; but their children remain Lord or Lady.

So if Harry's title is Duke of Sussex.
So Harry's grandchildren are Lady Jane Sussex?

But so confusing as George V's Sons wives were:

Princess Alice, Princess Marina? Excluding Wallace Simpson.

Daughters inherit only the LADY title; even with the new succession law?
Not exactly...

George's children are likely to all be born as HRH Prince/Princess - the only chance of that not happening is if George has children during the Queen's reign (which is unlikely), as the current LPs don't cover the children of the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales.

All of George's sons' wives will hold the feminine equivalent of their titles. So, if George's sons are, say, Prince Albert and Prince Arthur, then their wives will be Princess Albert and Princess Arthur. Going with current tradition, when George's children marry they'll be given their own Dukedoms - making them, say, Prince Albert, Duke of Cambridge and Prince Arthur, Duke of York, and their wives Princess Albert, Duchess of Cambridge, and Princess Arthur, Duchess of York. However, normally they'll be styled as TRH The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge and TRH The Duke and Duchess of York.

Harry's children, and grandchildren are different. His children will not be born as HRHs (not as the situation stands), as they'll be the great-grandchildren of a monarch, instead they'll be Lord/Lady X Mountbatten-Windsor, with his eldest son (his heir) using his second highest title as a courtesy title. So, say, Harry and Meghan marry tomorrow and become TRH The Duke and Duchess of Sussex. Their children will be, say, David Mountbatten-Windsor, Earl of Avondale, Lord John Mountbatten-Windsor, and Lady Rachel Mountbatten-Windsor at birth, then during Charles' reign become Prince David of Sussex, Prince John of Sussex, and Princess Rachel of Sussex.

In this scenario, David would become HRH The Duke of Sussex once Harry dies, his wife being HRH The Duchess of Sussex. He isn't going to be created a Duke, he'll inherit it. Their eldest son will be styled as the Earl of Avondale, while their younger sons will be Lord X Mountbatten-Windsor and any daughters will be Lady X Mountbatten-Windsor. John, on the other hand, will stay Prince John of Sussex, and his wife will become Princess John of Sussex - John isn't going to be created a Duke, or have a Dukedom to inherit. In this scenario, David's eldest son will be styled as Earl of Avondale, while his other children will be Lord/Lady. John's children will be Lord/Lady X Mountbatten-Windsor. Rachel's children won't get any title from her, but rather from their husband.
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  #1697  
Old 09-18-2017, 01:06 AM
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How do any of us know what Harry is going to do in regard to his children? From the posts above you all sound as if you know beyond a shadow of a doubt what he will do. Come on!!

Personally I hope Harry wants them born with HRH if not just for the principal of things and the outrageous racism towards Meghan.
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  #1698  
Old 09-18-2017, 01:40 AM
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I don't think you understand how it works.

What Harry wants has nothing to do with it. The current LPs say that the following people are HRH Prince/Princesses:
- the children of a monarch
- the male-line grandchildren of a monarch
- the children of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales

Harry's children are not covered, therefore they'll be styled as Lord/Lady, until such time as they are the male-line grandchildren of a monarch.
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  #1699  
Old 09-18-2017, 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted by jacqui24 View Post
The fact that even the York princesses aren't required for duty in the Firm today makes it unlikely Harry's future children will be working royals given Charles's desire to slim down. And I don't see that changing in the future. HRH is far more of a shackle than privilege if one is trying to live a normal life with a normal job. Criticism is there no matter what happens.
The yorks are not needed now as there are The queen, Charles and Camilla, Andrew, Edward and sophie, anne and sometimes Tim, the kents, the gloucesters, princess Alexandra, the cambridges and Harry.

In the next few years the queen, Gloucesters, Kents and Alexandra will retire. Eventually so will Anne and Tim. By simple aging, the royal family is going to drastically slim down without him doing anything.
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Old 09-18-2017, 03:31 AM
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I don't see the Gloucester's retiring all that soon. The Duke is only 4 years older than Charles and the Duchess only 2 years older. The Kent's are both now in their 80s and have both had health issues in recent years but the Duke and Duchess of Gloucester are the same age almost as Charles and Camilla. If they are forced to retire due to age then obviously Charles and Camilla can only go for a few years after that themselves.

Many people thing that the Gloucester's are the same age as the Queen when they are, in fact 18 and 20 years her junior - same generation from George V but much closer in age to Charles than to his mother. The Kent's are in between with the Duke 10 years younger than The Queen and Alexandra 11 years her junior.

The Queen - born 1926
The Duke of Kent - born 1936
Princess Alexandra - born 1937
Prince Micheal - born 1942
The Duke of Gloucester - born 1944
The Duchess of Gloucester - born 1946
The Duchess of Cornwall - born 1947
The Prince of Wales - born 1948
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