The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #1641  
Old 09-15-2017, 08:53 AM
Gentry
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Posts: 54
Apologies, I'm trying to learn about royal titles and how they are conferred. So I was seeking more clarification since this is the correct thread, right?
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #1642  
Old 09-15-2017, 09:00 AM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: st. paul, United States
Posts: 1,379
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoShades View Post
Hi, yes that's right - it's just from how I've studied the way the Queen confers titles on the Windsor males, it appeared to me she styles according to position of birth and in an orderly way. For example, the Prince of Wales, the Duke of York and so on. Yes, Charles has a couple of dukedoms, but first and foremost he is the Prince of Wales. And as it will likely be quite a while before there's a change of guard with regard to Charles' ascension to the throne, I'm not sure the Queen will feel it right that William and Harry along will their wives should hold the same rank & position at the same time. Especially in a very hierarchical system. I'm not sure I'm making any sense.
I don't think it would bother her. Charles, Andrew and Edward all take precedence over William and Harry and that didn't stop her from giving W a ducal title.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #1643  
Old 09-15-2017, 09:11 AM
Jacknch's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Suffolk/Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 5,796
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoShades View Post
Apologies, I'm trying to learn about royal titles and how they are conferred. So I was seeking more clarification since this is the correct thread, right?
No need to apologise - in the context of working out what style/title Harry will have, we can look at how other royals have been titled when they got married in this thread.

The question about Edward's title was specific to him and to titles in general so was moved over to the other thread.

For what it's worth, I do think Harry will be offered a Dukedom upon marriage - at least it would be my preference over an Earldom.
__________________
JACK
Reply With Quote
  #1644  
Old 09-15-2017, 09:31 AM
Osipi's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 9,423
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoShades View Post
Hi, yes that's right - it's just from how I've studied the way the Queen confers titles on the Windsor males, it appeared to me she styles according to position of birth and in an orderly way. For example, the Prince of Wales, the Duke of York and so on. Yes, Charles has a couple of dukedoms, but first and foremost he is the Prince of Wales. And as it will likely be quite a while before there's a change of guard with regard to Charles' ascension to the throne, I'm not sure the Queen will feel it right that William and Harry along will their wives should hold the same rank & position at the same time. Especially in a very hierarchical system. I'm not sure I'm making any sense.
Actually, being created a duke at the time of marriage, both William and Harry become peers of the UK. A duke is the highest ranking peerage in the UK so William and Harry would have equal rank and position in the peerage as royal dukes. Just like they both have the HRH honorific address and they both are Princes of the UK as grandchildren of the monarch.

Where William does have a higher status though is in the order of precedence. We'll see just how the order of precedence works should there be a televised royal wedding. Harry (and William if William is best man/supporter) will not be in that line up as they will enter with the bridal party.
__________________
“In my walks, every man I meet is my superior in some way, and in that I learn from him.”
~~~Ralph Waldo Emerson~~~
Reply With Quote
  #1645  
Old 09-15-2017, 10:50 AM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Norfolk, United States
Posts: 597
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoShades View Post
Re how Harry will possibly be styled after marriage. The Queen has so far been orderly / hierarchical in how she confers (courtesy) titles on her family after marriage though it'd be nice for Harry to be made a Duke after he weds (I'd like that). I feel strongly the Queen may well want him styled one step below his older brother, in rank. Still, anything is possible and I believe Meghan would make a perfect Duchess. Countess also has a nice ring to it, too, come to think of it.
That's not true, until Charles becomes King, the Queen's children takes precedence over William even if William is higher in line to the throne. Edward's earldom and William's dukedom does NOT change that.
Reply With Quote
  #1646  
Old 09-15-2017, 10:56 AM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is online now
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 3,362
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoShades View Post
Hi, yes that's right - it's just from how I've studied the way the Queen confers titles on the Windsor males, it appeared to me she styles according to position of birth and in an orderly way. For example, the Prince of Wales, the Duke of York and so on. Yes, Charles has a couple of dukedoms, but first and foremost he is the Prince of Wales. And as it will likely be quite a while before there's a change of guard with regard to Charles' ascension to the throne, I'm not sure the Queen will feel it right that William and Harry along will their wives should hold the same rank & position at the same time. Especially in a very hierarchical system. I'm not sure I'm making any sense.

There is a hierarchical system within Dukedoms already...

The Queen has only granted one peerage to each of her children - Charles holds multiple titles, but his Dukedoms were all automatic, only Prince of Wales comes from his mother. That was a title that could only be conferred on him as it has rules about who can be Prince of Wales.

The Duke of York can be anyone. Traditionally it's the second son (but not always; we've seen it more in the last century because of availability, but the Hanovers did not always use it, nor the Stuarts). Edward wasn't given a lesser title because he is "less" than his brothers, but rather because they wanted to pass on the Duke of Edinburgh title (in a manner) when it's available to be recreated.

The same isn't true with Harry - there isn't some other title that they could want to create for him in time so he "inherits" (in a manner) a family title. Which is why it's logical that he'll be created a Duke when he marries.

Dukes themselves are ranked in order of when they were created - with royal Dukedoms given precedent over non-royal Dukedoms. So the Duke of York is above the Duke of Clarence, because the Duke of York was created in 1986, and the Duke of Cambridge was created in 2011. Harry's future Dukedom will be beneath both, as it'll be created later (likewise with Esward's future Dukedom).
Reply With Quote
  #1647  
Old 09-15-2017, 11:03 AM
Skippyboo's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Atlanta, United States
Posts: 4,098
Titles and Styles of Harry, his Future Wife and Children

The date of creation doesn't really apply to royal Dukes. The Kent & Gloucester Dukedoms are older than Philip's, Andrew's and William's Dukedom, but the Dukes of Kent and Gloucesters don't have precedent over Philip, Andrew and William.

On paper Andrew, Edward and Anne are in higher precedence than William and Harry but that's not what we see happen in real life. William and Harry are higher than their Uncles and Aunt even without Charles present
Reply With Quote
  #1648  
Old 09-15-2017, 12:29 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Norfolk, United States
Posts: 597
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippyboo View Post
The date of creation doesn't really apply to royal Dukes. The Kent & Gloucester Dukedoms are older than Philip's, Andrew's and William's Dukedom, but the Dukes of Kent and Gloucesters don't have precedent over Philip, Andrew and William.

On paper Andrew, Edward and Anne are in higher precedence than William and Harry but that's not what we see happen in real life. William and Harry are higher than their Uncles and Aunt even without Charles present
That's because everyone understand eventually it's the line of succession that matters. However, if they are all still really into curtsying and all that, then it'd matter. So Kate would have to curtsy to Sophie if both William and Edward are present. If William isn't present, then Kate would have to curtsy to the York princesses under the new guideline of blood princesses take precedence.
Reply With Quote
  #1649  
Old 09-15-2017, 12:37 PM
Gentry
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Posts: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dee Anna View Post
I have absolutely no idea or opinion on Harry wanting his children to be HRH or not.

But I do not believe, how ever many children Wills and Kate have will impinge on Harry's popularity in the UK and abroad, especially where needed, in any way. Regardless of what his placement in terms of line, he is a true blue.
Quoted for truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by miss whirley View Post
I don't think it would bother her. Charles, Andrew and Edward all take precedence over William and Harry and that didn't stop her from giving W a ducal title.
Oh I don't know. Could just be the Queen's way of helping Prince Charles put his house in order (in the right order) before his time comes to take over as a King
Reply With Quote
  #1650  
Old 09-15-2017, 12:58 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Norfolk, United States
Posts: 597
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoShades View Post
Oh I don't know. Could just be the Queen's way of helping Prince Charles put his house in order (in the right order) before his time comes to take over as a King
Are you implying the Queen's house isn't in the right order? If that's the case, she shouldn't be trying to put Charles' future household in order.

BTW, I have the utmost respect for the Queen, that was just to point out the flaw to that logic.
Reply With Quote
  #1651  
Old 09-15-2017, 01:14 PM
Gentry
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Posts: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacknch View Post
No need to apologise - in the context of working out what style/title Harry will have, we can look at how other royals have been titled when they got married in this thread.

The question about Edward's title was specific to him and to titles in general so was moved over to the other thread.

For what it's worth, I do think Harry will be offered a Dukedom upon marriage - at least it would be my preference over an Earldom.
Thank you, and yes it'll be nice if he was made Duke once married.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqui24 View Post
Are you implying the Queen's house isn't in the right order? If that's the case, she shouldn't be trying to put Charles' future household in order.

BTW, I have the utmost respect for the Queen, that was just to point out the flaw to that logic.
No not at all, I don't mean it that way. The Queen is on the throne and probably will be for quite a while. Her direct heir has two grown up sons with the younger likely soon to follow in his older brother's footstep and get married. The Queen grants titles as a monarch so probably wants things done in an orderly way just as she's done with her sons. Nothing sinister on my part I'm only speculating as we all do. There's no need to jump to conclusions. That is all.
Reply With Quote
  #1652  
Old 09-15-2017, 05:04 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is online now
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 3,362
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoShades View Post
Oh I don't know. Could just be the Queen's way of helping Prince Charles put his house in order (in the right order) before his time comes to take over as a King


There's a precedent for adult children of the Prince of Wales though - the Queen's actions so far are just following much of what Queen Victoria did in her time.

During her reign, Victoria made each of her sons a Duke, then in time made both of the Prince of Wales' surviving sons (Albert Victor and George) Dukes themselves. Going a step further, she also elevated the husband of the Prince of Wales' eldest daughter to a Duke as well, as he was only an Earl prior to his marriage.

QEII has followed suit in most ways - there have been a few slight changes, owing to the people and the passage of time, but it's safe to expect that both of Charles' sons will, in time, be Dukes.
Reply With Quote
  #1653  
Old 09-15-2017, 10:47 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Westfield, New Jersey, United States
Posts: 140
It is very possible that Harry and Meghan, should they marry, could be Prince and Princess Harry of Wales. It is possible that he may not want a dukedom, a earldom, or a viscount position.
Reply With Quote
  #1654  
Old 09-15-2017, 10:52 PM
Pranter's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 5,616
It's unlikely you will see that happen. I'm pretty sure he's going to become Duke of X.


LaRae
Reply With Quote
  #1655  
Old 09-15-2017, 11:05 PM
Skippyboo's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Atlanta, United States
Posts: 4,098
Even without a Dukedom, Harry will lose the of Wales, when Charles becomes King. He would be HRH The Prince Henry. William's children will become of Wales once William is created Prince of Wales.
Reply With Quote
  #1656  
Old 09-15-2017, 11:09 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 2,603
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqui24 View Post
That's not true, until Charles becomes King, the Queen's children takes precedence over William even if William is higher in line to the throne. Edward's earldom and William's dukedom does NOT change that.
Nevertheless, in the recent state banquet in honor of King Felipe VI of Spain for example, William preceded his uncles both in the entry procession and in his position at the table. In fact, in all public ceremonies like Church services, the members of the Royal Family always seem to be seated and exit the Church according to their position in the order of succession to the Crown, só I wonder if that overrules any other precedent rule.
Reply With Quote
  #1657  
Old 09-16-2017, 12:35 AM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 11,047
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippyboo View Post
Even without a Dukedom, Harry will lose the of Wales, when Charles becomes King. He would be HRH The Prince Henry. William's children will become of Wales once William is created Prince of Wales.
Before they become 'of Wales' assuming they ever do they will be 'of Cornwall and Cambridge'.
Reply With Quote
  #1658  
Old 09-16-2017, 08:28 AM
Gentry
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Posts: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
There's a precedent for adult children of the Prince of Wales though - the Queen's actions so far are just following much of what Queen Victoria did in her time.

During her reign, Victoria made each of her sons a Duke, then in time made both of the Prince of Wales' surviving sons (Albert Victor and George) Dukes themselves. Going a step further, she also elevated the husband of the Prince of Wales' eldest daughter to a Duke as well, as he was only an Earl prior to his marriage.

QEII has followed suit in most ways - there have been a few slight changes, owing to the people and the passage of time, but it's safe to expect that both of Charles' sons will, in time, be Dukes.
Right, a precedent was set much earlier and Her Majesty is simply applying a similar model. I didn't know that so thanks for the info. I have to say I now agree with the general consensus here that Harry Wales will be made a Duke, not an Earl - by his gran.
Reply With Quote
  #1659  
Old 09-16-2017, 08:40 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 7,151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhea6 View Post
But Harry is a senior royal today and 1 of the 2 children of the POW. Harry is Way more popular than Edward ever was or ever will be . Can't compare Edward and Harry s situation.
Most importantly he's Diana s son and that in itself makes him different in the eyes of public .
I would be surprised if he isn't made a duke upon marriage !
Nothing so superficial as popularity and the person of the mother also plays no role in bestowing peerages. Antony Armstrong-Jones was created Earl Snowdon, Viscount Linley of Nymans and Baron Armstrong-Jones. Neither any possible popularity of Antony nor the person of his mother played any role.
Reply With Quote
  #1660  
Old 09-16-2017, 08:45 AM
Gentry
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Posts: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Nevertheless, in the recent state banquet in honor of King Felipe VI of Spain for example, William preceded his uncles both in the entry procession and in his position at the table. In fact, in all public ceremonies like Church services, the members of the Royal Family always seem to be seated and exit the Church according to their position in the order of succession to the Crown, só I wonder if that overrules any other precedent rule.
I feel this has more of a basis in reality and as a follower of the Windsor generation this is what I've observed as well. Gosh I sound old and I'm not much older than Wills
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
prince harry, prince william, styles and titles


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 3 (0 members and 3 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





Popular Tags
best outfit birthday carl gustaf chris o'neill crown princess mary crown princess victoria current events december denmark earl of snowdon english books general news hereditary grand duchess stéphanie hereditary grand duke guillaume infanta cristina infanta leonor infanta sofia iñaki urdangarín king abdullah ii king felipe king felipe vi king philippe king willem-alexander letizia liechtenstein meme monarchy news parliament picture of the week pieter van vollenhoven prince alexander prince carl philip prince daniel prince felix prince gabriel prince harry prince nicholas prince oscar princess beatrice princess claire of luxembourg princess elisabeth princess estelle princess leonore princess madeleine princess mary hats princess of asturias princess sofia princess victoria queen elizabeth ii queen letizia queen letizia casual outfits queen letizia daytime fashion queen letizia fashion queen mathilde queen maxima queen maxima casual wear queen maxima daytime fashion queen maxima fashion queen maxima hats queen maxima style queen rania queen silvia state visit state visit to spain stephanie sweden swedish royal family victoria video games



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:56 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2017
Jelsoft Enterprises