The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #1461  
Old 04-18-2017, 12:00 PM
Skippyboo's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Atlanta, United States
Posts: 4,098
Titles and Styles of Harry, his Future Wife and Children

It's a long shot but definitely more feasible that her husband getting the male form of her title or using her secondary title like a heir would. In all likelihood he just has whatever he has by his own right. Be it Mr John Doe or Lord Family Title.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #1462  
Old 04-18-2017, 06:35 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 492
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
[...] I believe there's a push for some sort of change among peers in same-sex-marriages right now, and if that happens I could see it spilling over into change for how the husbands of women who hold titles in their own right, but I'm not betting on it.
David Cameron's Government considered titles for the spouses of female peers, including same-sex spouses.

http://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2...WebsitesTitles

Quote:
Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)

When this investigation goes ahead, will the Government consider looking at honorary titles for the spouses of women Members of this House?

Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen

Yes, certainly we will do that.
Peers: Females:Written question - HL662 - UK Parliament

Quote:
Peers: Females:Written question - HL662
Q
Asked by Lord Lexden
Asked on: 13 June 2016
Cabinet Office
Peers: Females
HL662
To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the answer given by Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen on 9 June (HL Deb, col 817), how the consideration of honorary titles for the spouses of women members of the House of Lords will be conducted; whether same sex spouses and civil partners will be included in the exercise; and when that exercise will be completed.
A
Answered by: Lord Bridges of Headley
Answered on: 27 June 2016

The Government recognises that there are some intrinsic inequalities within the courtesy titles system as it relates to honorifics. We have sympathy with those who are seeking to resolve such inequalities and we are looking into the process around courtesy titles, including in relation to same sex spouses and civil partners. The resolution of these inequalities is a very complex issue and we are at an early stage. We will provide an update in due course.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #1463  
Old 04-18-2017, 10:52 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is online now
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 3,362
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqui24 View Post
I think the gender equality has more to do with daughters being able to inherit same ways sons can, and by birth order rather than gender. The suggestion that Charlotte be given a title of her own but not allowing the husband to carry the title as well in itself is gender inequality. Same way that a Queen consort is Queen, but consort to Queen Regent is not King.


There is a trend towards gender equality towards equal inheritance rights, and it's that trend that I see being the cause of Charlotte one day being created a Duchess in her own right (comparable to how things are being treated in Sweden).

There has been a push to have the husbands of women who hold titles to get a courtesy title in Britain, although not one that's overly popular at this point. There is also a push among homosexual peers for their spouses to have a courtesy title similar to how a heterosexual peer's wife would use a courtesy title. This trend I can see actually gaining ground in time because it falls under the gay rights movement (albeit to a very narrow part of that community), and if in time something is done for the husbands of male peers and the wives of female peers, then I can see that also being extended to the husbands of female peers.

But that is hugely speculative, and I wouldn't bet on it happening any time soon. I would bet on Charlotte being given a hereditary peerage of her own when she gets married, and controversy occurring if she isn't.
Reply With Quote
  #1464  
Old 04-19-2017, 07:52 AM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Norfolk, United States
Posts: 597
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
There is a trend towards gender equality towards equal inheritance rights, and it's that trend that I see being the cause of Charlotte one day being created a Duchess in her own right (comparable to how things are being treated in Sweden).

There has been a push to have the husbands of women who hold titles to get a courtesy title in Britain, although not one that's overly popular at this point. There is also a push among homosexual peers for their spouses to have a courtesy title similar to how a heterosexual peer's wife would use a courtesy title. This trend I can see actually gaining ground in time because it falls under the gay rights movement (albeit to a very narrow part of that community), and if in time something is done for the husbands of male peers and the wives of female peers, then I can see that also being extended to the husbands of female peers.

But that is hugely speculative, and I wouldn't bet on it happening any time soon. I would bet on Charlotte being given a hereditary peerage of her own when she gets married, and controversy occurring if she isn't.
I believe Princess Madeleine has held her title since birth, not upon marriage. Bottom line is the trend for peerage given is slimming rather than expanding. Not every member of royal family will be given peerage titles, especially if traditions don't call for it. Earl of Snowden was given a title so that Margaret would have a title other than The Princess Margaret upon marriage, but Anne and her husband chose to forgo it and thus setting a new precedent. I just don't see the royal family go back to be more title-y, if that makes sense. Charlotte will be HRH no matter what, and probably created Princess Royal at some point in her life, I don't think anyone will see a peerage as necessary.
Reply With Quote
  #1465  
Old 04-19-2017, 09:15 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 4,735
If Andrew remarried and had a son would he be Duke of York in his turn, given that this title is always given to the second son of the sovereign?
Reply With Quote
  #1466  
Old 04-19-2017, 09:28 AM
Skippyboo's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Atlanta, United States
Posts: 4,098
It's not always given to the second son because sometimes it isn't free. If Andrew has a son, then the title goes to the son and is unavailable until it runs out of male heirs.

Victoria's second son Alfred was Duke of Edinburgh instead of York.


Lots of the royal Dukedoms would be unavailable if the many sons of George III didn't died without legitimate heirs. There were a lot of illegitimate children from that lot.
Reply With Quote
  #1467  
Old 04-19-2017, 09:37 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 4,735
York's a bit of a special case though isn't it, an oddity in a way? From medieval times each time the bearer has either died without male heirs or has ascended the throne himself.
Thanks for that, Skippyboo. I am having a debate at the moment with someone about it. I thought I was on the right track. Good to have it confirmed!
Reply With Quote
  #1468  
Old 04-19-2017, 10:13 AM
Skippyboo's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Atlanta, United States
Posts: 4,098
Well up in the beginning of the 20th century. It was quite easy to get sick and die from it. Lots of children didn't make it to adulthood including royal children.

Edward VII fell extremely ill as Prince of Wales and almost died. He first son died of illness and George V went through a bout of typhoid before his brother died.

Other than Prince John, the other two early royal deaths in the last century were from airplane crashes with George Duke of Kent and Prince William of Gloucester.

Now a days, it more having only girls that stops a title from being passed down. Like we see with Andrew or if Mark Philips got a title when he married Anne, Peter would inherit in time but so far he has just girls and only sisters so the title would stop after him. Lord Snowdon's title would also stop if Charles Armstrong Jones has no sons because there isn't another male branch of the title to fall back on yet.
Reply With Quote
  #1469  
Old 04-19-2017, 11:55 PM
LauraS3514's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: San Jose, CA, United States
Posts: 420
As far as the other current royal dukedoms, Kent will most certainly pass out of the family forever as there are many heirs: Earl of St. Andrews, Baron Downpatrick, Lord Nicholas and his three sons Albert, Leopold, and Louis, Prince Michael and Lord Frederick. They would all have to have no male heirs before it goes extinct and I don't see that happening. Gloucester is a slight possibility to return to the family as the current Duke has only one son, Earl of Ulster, who also has only one son Baron Culloden.
Reply With Quote
  #1470  
Old 04-20-2017, 12:06 AM
Countessmeout's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: alberta, Canada
Posts: 6,564
Fortunately with modern health care, and other improvements, the requirement for a spare is pretty limited.

It's also not unheard of for a peer to appeal to the monarch for it to pass to a male from the female line, or even a daughter in absence as in the case of Mountbatten.
Reply With Quote
  #1471  
Old 04-20-2017, 01:35 AM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is online now
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 3,362
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
York's a bit of a special case though isn't it, an oddity in a way? From medieval times each time the bearer has either died without male heirs or has ascended the throne himself.
Thanks for that, Skippyboo. I am having a debate at the moment with someone about it. I thought I was on the right track. Good to have it confirmed!


The funny thing is, York isn't actually as much of an oddity as it might seem to be. It's been created and recreated 9 times since Edward III first created it, and only been inherited through the first creation - every Duke of York since Edward IV has either become King or died without a male heir.

But, the title Duke of Gloucester has been created 7 times, and only been passed on through 2 of those creations in the same time span. The title Duke of Clarence has been created 4 times in that time period, merging with the throne once, having no male heirs twice and being created once for a man who turned traitor against his brother the king. Cumberland was created 3 times and only inherited once... before being revoked because the Cumberlands/Hanovers fought on the wrong side of WWI.
Reply With Quote
  #1472  
Old 04-20-2017, 06:05 AM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 11,047
Edinburgh is another interesting title having been created 4 times since 1726.

The first time it was for Frederick Prince of Wales as the grandson of the King (in William's position) and was then inherited by his son - the future George III and so it merged with the Crown when he became King.

He then regranted it, along with Gloucester, for his younger brother William who died leaving a son to inherit but that son died without male heirs.

The third creation was for Queen Victoria's second son Alfred whose only son predeceased him without male issue. Interestingly there has been some discussion of the fact that Queen Victoria didn't use the title Duke of Kent for her sons - but she did use Earl of Kent for Alfred - along with Earl of Ulster.

Philip is the fourth creation. I find it interesting that it has only made it, at most, to the first line of inheritance before becoming extinct at best. Even though Philip has three sons his title will most likely merge with the Crown when it passes into the next generation and so will then again be regranted.

Of course this isn't a title that should be available for Harry or his children but it is one that, if tragedy were to strike, Harry could inherit (if Charles, William and George were to predecease The Queen then Charlotte would become Queen and Philip's titles would all go to Harry).
Reply With Quote
  #1473  
Old 04-22-2017, 05:26 AM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Edinburgh is another interesting title having been created 4 times since 1726.

The first time it was for Frederick Prince of Wales as the grandson of the King (in William's position) and was then inherited by his son - the future George III and so it merged with the Crown when he became King.

He then regranted it, along with Gloucester, for his younger brother William who died leaving a son to inherit but that son died without male heirs.

The third creation was for Queen Victoria's second son Alfred whose only son predeceased him without male issue. Interestingly there has been some discussion of the fact that Queen Victoria didn't use the title Duke of Kent for her sons - but she did use Earl of Kent for Alfred - along with Earl of Ulster.

Philip is the fourth creation. I find it interesting that it has only made it, at most, to the first line of inheritance before becoming extinct at best. Even though Philip has three sons his title will most likely merge with the Crown when it passes into the next generation and so will then again be regranted.

Of course this isn't a title that should be available for Harry or his children but it is one that, if tragedy were to strike, Harry could inherit (if Charles, William and George were to predecease The Queen then Charlotte would become Queen and Philip's titles would all go to Harry).
There has been some recurring talk about Edward being created Duke of Edinburgh when his father dies.
Reply With Quote
  #1474  
Old 04-22-2017, 07:35 AM
Lumutqueen's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Carlton, York, United Kingdom
Posts: 18,409
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavs View Post
There has been some recurring talk about Edward being created Duke of Edinburgh when his father dies.
Iluvbertie has a pinned thread where that scenario is answered.
The future of the Duke of Edinburgh title
__________________
We Will Remember Them.
Reply With Quote
  #1475  
Old 04-22-2017, 07:47 AM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 2,603
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavs View Post
There has been some recurring talk about Edward being created Duke of Edinburgh when his father dies.
When Prince Philip passes, the title will go to Charles, who is his heir. If Charles becomes king, the title will then merge into the Crown and King Charles III (or George VII, or whatever his regnal name is) will be able to recreate it for Edward.
Reply With Quote
  #1476  
Old 04-22-2017, 07:48 AM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 2,225
I've asked this before maybe here, or somewhere else, but I never got an answer... what will happen if the RF run out of these traditional "royal duke titles"? if say Harry becomes D of York and has a male heir.. and that tilte goes away and Edinbrugh too.. what happens when young George is getting married? Will they stop having this tradition of giving a young male a royal dukedom on marriage/maturity?
Reply With Quote
  #1477  
Old 04-22-2017, 08:00 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 7,151
In my understanding only sons of a Sovereign and of a Heir are created Dukes. Then their titles are inherited by their respective eldest sons, as we can see with the Kents and the Gloucesters.

The Dukedom of Prince Andrew will revert back to the Crown. The Dukedom of Prince Philip will revert back to the Crown. The Dukedom of Prince William will revert back to the Crown.

So from the record-breaking long Reign of Queen Elizabeth possibly only the Dukedom for Prince Harry will be a "lasting" one, when she is the creator and her grandson will have a male heir. After all an eventual Dukedom for Prince Edward will always be the prerogative of King Charles.

So little danger for "running out of Dukedoms". ;-)
Reply With Quote
  #1478  
Old 04-22-2017, 08:20 AM
Osipi's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 9,423
Thanks Duc. With the explanation you've given, its occurred to me that perhaps this is one reason why it'll be very hard to change the ruling of only having males inherit and go for equal primogeniture with life peerage.

They change that and the titles can be passed down through both the sons and the daughters, there's more chances of royal dukedoms not reverting to the crown to be created anew.

Interesting topic.
__________________
“In my walks, every man I meet is my superior in some way, and in that I learn from him.”
~~~Ralph Waldo Emerson~~~
Reply With Quote
  #1479  
Old 04-22-2017, 08:37 AM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 2,603
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
In my understanding only sons of a Sovereign and of a Heir are created Dukes. Then their titles are inherited by their respective eldest sons, as we can see with the Kents and the Gloucesters.

The Dukedom of Prince Andrew will revert back to the Crown. The Dukedom of Prince Philip will revert back to the Crown. The Dukedom of Prince William will revert back to the Crown.

So from the record-breaking long Reign of Queen Elizabeth possibly only the Dukedom for Prince Harry will be a "lasting" one, when she is the creator and her grandson will have a male heir. After all an eventual Dukedom for Prince Edward will always be the prerogative of King Charles.

So little danger for "running out of Dukedoms". ;-)
Besides, daughters of the monarch or the Prince of Wales do not get dukedoms, which also helps to avoid "running out of dukedoms". That will continue to be the case unless calls for "gender equality" get in the way in the future.

In the next generation, George will probably be the Prince of Wales and Charlotte will probably be the Princess Royal, so no need for an extra dukedom there. If William has a second younger son, then he will probably beome Duke of York as the title will be available after Andrew passes.

Harry's children on the other hand won't have any dukedoms of their own ; Harry's eldest son, if any, will inherit Harry's dukedom.
Reply With Quote
  #1480  
Old 04-22-2017, 08:59 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Philadelphia, United States
Posts: 3,814
Assuming Harry becomes a duke, will his son then become an earl or a viscount?

(When Antony Armstrong-Jones became the Earl of Snowdon, his son became Viscount Linley).
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
prince harry, prince william, styles and titles


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 3 (0 members and 3 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





Popular Tags
best outfit birthday carl gustaf chris o'neill crown princess mary crown princess victoria current events december denmark earl of snowdon english books general news hereditary grand duchess stéphanie hereditary grand duke guillaume infanta cristina infanta leonor infanta sofia iñaki urdangarín king abdullah ii king felipe king felipe vi king philippe king willem-alexander letizia liechtenstein meme monarchy news parliament picture of the week pieter van vollenhoven prince alexander prince carl philip prince daniel prince felix prince gabriel prince harry prince nicholas prince oscar princess beatrice princess claire of luxembourg princess elisabeth princess estelle princess leonore princess madeleine princess mary hats princess of asturias princess sofia princess victoria queen elizabeth ii queen letizia queen letizia casual outfits queen letizia daytime fashion queen letizia fashion queen mathilde queen maxima queen maxima casual wear queen maxima daytime fashion queen maxima fashion queen maxima hats queen maxima style queen rania queen silvia state visit state visit to spain stephanie sweden swedish royal family victoria video games



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:56 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2017
Jelsoft Enterprises