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  #1021  
Old 05-09-2014, 10:08 PM
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No.

Most British titles can only be passed in direct male lines.

Had the 8th Earl Spencer not had any sons then his titles would have gone to the next senior most male-line, male descendant of an earlier Earl. As the 8th Earl was the only son of the 7th Earl, then the common line of descent would have been the 6th Earl. He had 3 sons, Albert (the 7th Earl), Cecil (who died without children), and George. George's only son, Robert, was alive in 1992 (if the peerage is accurate, he's still alive) when the 8th Earl died and would have succeeded to the title had the 8th Earl not had sons. As Robert Spencer has no children, and the only male line from the 1st Earl Spencer that still exists today goes through the 6th Earl, then had the 8th Earl died without sons then Robert likely would have been the last Earl before the title became extinct. At which point, it is entirely possible that it could have been recreated for William or Harry.
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  #1022  
Old 05-09-2014, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
(Edward) John Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer (1924-1992) was the father of Diana, Princess of Wales and Prince Henry's maternal grandfather.

Scenario:
Suppose Diana had been the only child of the 8th Earl Spencer.
Would Prince Harry have been able to become the new Earl Spencer upon his grandfather's demise?
No. The title would have passed to the next male heir (nephew; cousin etc) in the male line, ie not via a female descendant.

This would have been complex as 7th Earl had only one son

6th Earl had only 7th Earl with issue. Without detailed work, as daughters seem to prevail over sons, working out who would be heir is difficult but it would't be Harry.
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  #1023  
Old 05-09-2014, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
(Edward) John Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer (1924-1992) was the father of Diana, Princess of Wales and Prince Henry's maternal grandfather.

Scenario:
Suppose Diana had been the only child of the 8th Earl Spencer.
Would Prince Harry have been able to become the new Earl Spencer upon his grandfather's demise?
No.

The LPs creating the Spence title - like most British titles - allow only for 'heirs male of the body' to inherit the title and so Diana could never have inherited her father's title and thus wouldn't have been able to pass it to either of her sons - but had she a title in her own right is would automatically have gone to William until it would have merged with the Crown on his accession.

Looking back to the Edinburgh title - note that Anne, Beatrice, Eugenie and Louise aren't in the line of succession to that title - because they are girls.

Louise can't inherit the Wessex title as she is a girl and Beatrice can't inherit York for the same reason.

A major reason why Diana's father was so disappointed when she was born was the fact that she was a girl as that meant three children but still no heir to the Spencer title from his direct line and as he didn't have a brother the title would have passed to a cousin had he not had Charles as his fourth child.
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  #1024  
Old 05-09-2014, 11:57 PM
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It like the Earldom of Grantham on Downton Abbey- his 3 Daughters couldn't inherit so the heir was the next male which was Matthew who was a distant cousin. Since Matthew was killed, his son became the heir because of his dad not because his mom is the eldest daughter.
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  #1025  
Old 05-10-2014, 12:04 AM
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Yeah, but such rules can make some unnecessarily complicated scenarios. I mean, what if Matthew's and Mary's child had been a girl? Who would have been the heir then?
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  #1026  
Old 05-10-2014, 12:54 AM
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Some more distant cousin no doubt.
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  #1027  
Old 05-10-2014, 01:27 AM
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Or the Labrador :)
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  #1028  
Old 05-10-2014, 04:22 AM
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What if Charles doesn't make Edward Duke of Edinburgh?
Or if Edward dies before the Queen, then maybe Charles will give the Duke of Edinburgh title to Harry.
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  #1029  
Old 05-10-2014, 04:39 AM
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Having made the announcement in 1999 that Charles will create Edward Duke of Edinburgh when the time comes it would be seen as very, very bad for Charles to not honour that agreement.

Should Edward predecease The Queen and Philip - after all it takes both of their deaths for the title to become available - I would hope that Charles would then continue to honour the agreement - and its spirit and create James, Duke of Edinburgh. The intention of the agreement is for the Edward to eventually become a Duke and thus in turn for James to also become a Duke and the selected title for them has also been announced as Edinburgh.
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  #1030  
Old 05-10-2014, 04:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Camilla View Post
What if Charles doesn't make Edward Duke of Edinburgh?
Or if Edward dies before the Queen, then maybe Charles will give the Duke of Edinburgh title to Harry.
Somehow it is hard for me to picture Charles not honoring the wishes of his parents. He rightfully could do so but I think he is not the kind of person that would.

If Edward should predecease the Queen, and Charles becomes King after the passing of both the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh, my guess would be that Charles would hold the title in reserve for whomever takes on the Duke of Edinburgh Award and Philip's charities. It may be Harry but I really doubt it.
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  #1031  
Old 05-10-2014, 05:26 AM
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When Edward is the Duke of Edinburgh, then his son James becomes Heir. Usually a Dukedom is granted with three dignities, in this case the creation would be: Viscount Severn, Earl of Wessex and Duke of Edinburgh.

Edward then is the Duke of Edinburgh, his son James the Earl of Wessex and James' future eldest son the Viscount Severn. When Edward predeceases his mother Queen Elizabeth, I can still imagine that King Charles III will create his nephew James the new Duke of Edinburgh.

I think that Prince Harry will take up residence at Clarence House and become the future Duke of Clarence. That would be a nice match between residence and title.
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  #1032  
Old 05-10-2014, 05:30 AM
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At the time William married I'm sure I read somewhere that Harry would get the title Duke of Sussex
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  #1033  
Old 05-10-2014, 05:47 AM
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I think 'Sussex' ia a more likely ducal title for Prince Harry. It is an actual place with defined boundaries.

'Clarence' sounds rather camp to me, and [as far as i'm aware] is not a geographical reality. Pore as i have over maps of the United Kingdom, i cannot find it... and wonder where the name and title originates.
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  #1034  
Old 05-10-2014, 05:57 AM
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I think Sussex will be the title of choice, but with Wessex and Sussex it's quite a mouthful!

I also don't think his children with be HRH's as I feel Charles will change the current LP when he is King.
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  #1035  
Old 05-10-2014, 06:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molly2101 View Post
I think Sussex will be the title of choice, but with Wessex and Sussex it's quite a mouthful!

I also don't think his children with be HRH's as I feel Charles will change the current LP when he is King.

I can't see that happening- Charles choosing to strip Harry's children of the right to be an HRH. It's possible that like the Wessex children, they'll choose not to use it, but I think Charles officially changing it would come off as really stingy and unfair.
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  #1036  
Old 05-10-2014, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyevale View Post
I think 'Sussex' ia a more likely ducal title for Prince Harry. It is an actual place with defined boundaries.

'Clarence' sounds rather camp to me, and [as far as i'm aware] is not a geographical reality. Pore as i have over maps of the United Kingdom, i cannot find it... and wonder where the name and title originates.
Clarence comes from Clare in Suffolk, England, near Bury St Edmunds. The name comes from the family De Clare, Norman lords who accompanied William the Conqueror into England. Around 1050 Messire Richard fitz Gilbert, Seigneur de Bienfait et d'Orbec became Lord of Clarence and of Tonbridge, Joint Chief Justiciar of England. So Clare/Clarence is one of the oldest English dignities...

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  #1037  
Old 05-10-2014, 06:17 AM
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Thankou, Duc et Pair. Thats very interesting.

Still prefer 'Sussex' though !
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  #1038  
Old 05-10-2014, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post
I can't see that happening- Charles choosing to strip Harry's children of the right to be an HRH. It's possible that like the Wessex children, they'll choose not to use it, but I think Charles officially changing it would come off as really stingy and unfair.
Note that no one has been "stripped off". Legally James is HRH Prince James of Wessex, Viscount Severn. Legally Louise is HRH Princess Louise of Wessex. Like Camilla is legally HRH The Princess of Wales. All these individuals are known with another style but none of them has actually been "stripped off" anything at all.

When in the future James decides to use his princely dignity, then he has the full right to do so.

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  #1039  
Old 05-10-2014, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Note that no one has been "stripped off". Legally James is HRH Prince James of Wessex, Viscount Severn. Legally Louise is HRH Princess Louise of Wessex. Like Camilla is legally HRH The Princess of Wales. All these individuals are known with another style but none of them has actually been "stripped off" anything at all.

When in the future James decides to use his princely dignity, then he has the full right to do so.


I know that- that's what I was saying would be a more likely choice for Harry's children than Charles issuing new LPs to deny them the HRH legally.

Personally, I think Harry's children will be HRHs and will use the title. I don't think Charles wants to slim down the monarchy quite that much.
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  #1040  
Old 05-10-2014, 06:46 AM
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I don't imagine Harry's children would be denied HRH/titles unless, like Anne, Harry decided against using them.


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