The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Reigning Houses > British Royals > Prince Harry and Prince William

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #941  
Old 03-29-2013, 01:45 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Rio de Janeiro and Petrópolis, Brazil
Posts: 1,124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
I actually don't think you get the difference between 'Dame' and 'Lady'.

Dame = a title held in your own right - she was made a Dame for her own work and will hold that title forever more.

Lady - a style she takes because of who she is married to - a style she would lose on divorce.

That the wife of a KG of the Garter gives her a higher position in the Order of Precedence than a Dame in her own right is why Wikipedia (hardly a reliable source in many cases) refers to her as Lady as the later title but it also says that legally, on legal documents etc she is referred to as Dame Norma Major - because that it a title she holds in her own right, through her own efforts while Lady is merely the style of the wife of a knight.

I understand the difference between Dame and Lady.

But Norma Major holds these two titles. As Lady, even by courtesy, she has a higher precedence than the one she would have only as a Dame.

The point is that she holds two titles, and decided the be know as Dame, but she's still a Lady.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #942  
Old 03-29-2013, 01:52 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire View Post
The point is that she holds two titles, and decided the be know as Dame, but she's still a Lady.
Norma was always a lady, even before she became a Dame or a Lady
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #943  
Old 03-29-2013, 02:49 PM
AdmirerUS's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 2,457
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire View Post
Wikipedia says this -

- Major's styles since her birth in chronological order are:
- Miss Norma Wagstaff (1942–45)
- Miss Norma Johnson (1945–70)
- Mrs. John Major (1970–99)
- Dame Norma Major, DBE (1999–present)
- Lady Major, DBE (2005–present)

Norma Major has been created a Dame Commander of the Order of the British Empire and she is named as Dame Norma Major in legal documents. As the wife of a Knight of the Garter, she may use also the courtesy title of "Lady" as a prefix to her surname, provided she uses her husband’s surname. Although this title places her higher in the Order of Precedence than her Damehood, she prefers to use the style Dame Norma Major as she acquired this distinction in her own right.

Norma Major - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Wikipedia may say this - but they may not be right. Remember when when the Cambridges took action against the tabloid in France, Kate was named on those LEGAL documents with her Middleton name.

Also - which is more rude?
  • to refer to someone by the name they ask you to use ("oh please call me Harry")
  • to keep referring to someone by their style/title/given name, when they have asked you to not do that. (Prince Henry, would you like me to fetch your trousers?")
I'd rather have good manners than be right according to Wikipedia standards.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #944  
Old 03-29-2013, 02:53 PM
AdmirerUS's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 2,457
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire View Post
No, when a Prince gets a Dukedom, he ceases to use the "surname" from his father's title (the Duke of Cambridge is no longer "Prince William of Wales").

Similarly, when a Princess marry, she ceases to use the "surname", and starts to use her husband title or surname (like Princess Alexandra, the Honorable Lady Ogilvy).
William is still Wales in the military. It's another exception to the rules.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #945  
Old 03-29-2013, 03:48 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Rio de Janeiro and Petrópolis, Brazil
Posts: 1,124
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmirerUS View Post
Wikipedia may say this - but they may not be right. Remember when when the Cambridges took action against the tabloid in France, Kate was named on those LEGAL documents with her Middleton name.

Also - which is more rude?
  • to refer to someone by the name they ask you to use ("oh please call me Harry")
  • to keep referring to someone by their style/title/given name, when they have asked you to not do that. (Prince Henry, would you like me to fetch your trousers?")
I'd rather have good manners than be right according to Wikipedia standards.
I never said otherwise.

Prince Harry could ask you to call him "Harry", or even "Shirley" if he want. But that doesn't change the fact that he is HRH Prince Henry of Wales.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #946  
Old 03-29-2013, 04:27 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 8,441
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire View Post
I understand the difference between Dame and Lady.

But Norma Major holds these two titles. As Lady, even by courtesy, she has a higher precedence than the one she would have only as a Dame.

The point is that she holds two titles, and decided the be know as Dame, but she's still a Lady.

Clearly you don't as you keep referring to them both as titles when one is a title and the other is a style.

A title is substantive and in her own right.

A style is a courtesy and one held by right of connection.

She is a Dame in her own right. That is her own title.

She is a Lady because she is married to a Knight of the Garter. That is a style she uses because he has the male title of 'Sir'.

Her precedence is based on the levels of knighthood - and Garter is higher than all other knighthoods but Dame is the same as Sir so the precedence comes based on the order of knighthood given.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #947  
Old 03-29-2013, 04:35 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Rio de Janeiro and Petrópolis, Brazil
Posts: 1,124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Clearly you don't as you keep referring to them both as titles when one is a title and the other is a style.

A title is substantive and in her own right.

A style is a courtesy and one held by right of connection.

She is a Dame in her own right. That is her own title.

She is a Lady because she is married to a Knight of the Garter. That is a style she uses because he has the male title of 'Sir'.

Her precedence is based on the levels of knighthood - and Garter is higher than all other knighthoods but Dame is the same as Sir so the precedence comes based on the order of knighthood given.
I never said she can't use her title of Dame.

I'm just saying that, at the same time she's Dame Nora Major, she's also Lady Major, doesn't matter what she prefers to be called.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #948  
Old 03-30-2013, 11:46 AM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,732
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmirerUS View Post
William is still Wales in the military. It's another exception to the rules.
It's not really a "rule'. More like accepted practice for those with titles or royal styles. It is extremely common for Peers to use their titles as surnames when necessary or if they so desire with their close friends.

William has always used "William Wales" since he was in school and continues to use it in the Armed Forces. Even though "William Cambridge" would be correct now that he is a Duke, it doesn't matter what name he uses. Technically, he has no surname as HRH at birth.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #949  
Old 05-22-2013, 05:39 AM
Daimyo's Avatar
Commoner
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: San Francisco, United States
Posts: 21
what title will Prince Harry be granted by the Queen when he marries?

HRH The Duke of Clarence?

HRH The Duke of Albany?

HRH The Duke of Cumberland?

HRH The Duke of Windsor?

or will he just continuing being HRH Prince Harry (and his wife will be HRH Princess Harry)?? (like Prince & Princess Michael) .........Princess Harry just sounds wrong....
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #950  
Old 05-22-2013, 05:43 AM
Lumutqueen's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Carlton, York, United Kingdom
Posts: 17,105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daimyo View Post
what title will Prince Harry be granted by the Queen when he marries?

HRH The Duke of Clarence?

HRH The Duke of Albany?

HRH The Duke of Cumberland?

HRH The Duke of Windsor?
Until he gets married we don't know. I doubt we'll see Windsor until William is King IMO.
__________________
We Will Remember Them.
Reply With Quote
  #951  
Old 05-22-2013, 06:02 AM
Daimyo's Avatar
Commoner
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: San Francisco, United States
Posts: 21
yes of course, but any speculation?

gambling sites like Ladbrokes gave favorite odds on title of Prince William (Cambridge and Cumberland were favorite odds)
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #952  
Old 05-22-2013, 07:29 AM
Lumutqueen's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Carlton, York, United Kingdom
Posts: 17,105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daimyo View Post
yes of course, but any speculation?

gambling sites like Ladbrokes gave favorite odds on title of Prince William (Cambridge and Cumberland were favorite odds)
Speculation for William's title arose when he got engaged, Henry doesn't even have a long term girlfriend.
__________________
We Will Remember Them.
Reply With Quote
  #953  
Old 05-22-2013, 04:58 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 8,441
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daimyo View Post
what title will Prince Harry be granted by the Queen when he marries?

HRH The Duke of Clarence?

HRH The Duke of Albany?

HRH The Duke of Cumberland?

HRH The Duke of Windsor?

or will he just continuing being HRH Prince Harry (and his wife will be HRH Princess Harry)?? (like Prince & Princess Michael) .........Princess Harry just sounds wrong....

He can't have Albany or Cumberland as they aren't extinct titles. The holders were deprived of those titles in 1917 under the Titles Deprivation Act but there are claimants who have the right to petition to have the titles restored. Until there are no living male-line descendents of these titles they aren't available for regrant. The Act included the right to petition for the restoration of the titles.

Currently the person who could petition for Cumberland is Ernst Augustus V, Prince of Hanover and his son is the heir apparent. There are other male line sons as well.

Currenty the person who could petition for Albany is Hubertus Prinz von Sachsen Coburg-Gotha and he too has a son and heir to that title should they decide to petition for its restoration.

Windsor is a non-starter - it was a special one -off title given to an ex-King and is probably in the back drawer for such an occasion in the future e.g. if William abdicates then Duke of Windsor (I can see William following the Dutch example and abdicating when he reaches about 75 and that would allow his heir to use Windsor as a new title for William as Cambridge would have merged with the Crown).
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #954  
Old 06-17-2013, 05:44 AM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Balmoral, United Kingdom
Posts: 263
If Harry were to marry in a couple of years and become a Duke and Duchess, what kind of married couple would they be?

Would they be encouraged to be leading royals like William and kate or would they be encouraged to keep a lower profile like Edward and Sophie?
__________________
Virtually Royalty
Reply With Quote
  #955  
Old 06-17-2013, 06:03 AM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 8,441
They will be front-line royals for the simple reason that they will be the only other royals in their generation.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #956  
Old 06-17-2013, 06:16 AM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Balmoral, United Kingdom
Posts: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
They will be front-line royals for the simple reason that they will be the only other royals in their generation.
Very true!
__________________
Virtually Royalty
Reply With Quote
  #957  
Old 06-17-2013, 06:40 AM
Osipi's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 3,856
I would imagine though that unless Harry has left the military by then, he and his wife would still be considered part time royals and given time to adjust such as William and Kate had after they married.
__________________
“We live in a world where we have to hide to make love, while violence is practiced in broad daylight.”
~~~ John Lennon ~~~
Reply With Quote
  #958  
Old 07-27-2013, 08:26 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Hamilton, Bermuda
Posts: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
If the queen doesn't, they will gain the title when Charles is king anyways, as male line grandchildren of the monarch. As it is Will who will be king when his kids wed, it will stand to be seen how Harry's younger kids will be titled. His eldest will gain Harry's dukedome (if a son) when Harry dies. Harry's younger kids may very well just be left as Prince/Princess (like Prince Michael and Princess Alexandra) and not given a duchy on marriage. It may have been different IMO, if their grandfather was king when they wed.

I can see Duke and Duchess of Sussex. And their children will be Lord/Lady, and the eldest what ever Harry's Earl title is, until Charles is king IMO.

I love the royals, but I don't get all the details that they are about. Why would Harry/Henry's children not be Prince/ss? His cousins are, and his child will be 5th in line (until William and Kate have another)
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #959  
Old 07-27-2013, 08:38 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is online now
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 2,111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristan View Post

I love the royals, but I don't get all the details that they are about. Why would Harry/Henry's children not be Prince/ss? His cousins are, and his child will be 5th in line (until William and Kate have another)
The 1917 LPs regarding princely titles states that the children of the monarch, the male-line grandchildren of the monarch, the eldest son of the heir apparent's eldest son, and the wives of the above will be HRH Prince(ss). Further LPs have been issued to grant the children of the then Princess Elizabeth, the DoE, and now all the children of William the title, but until Charles is king any children of Harry's are not covered under the current LPs.

Harry's children would be comparable to the children of the Kents and Gloucesters - male-line great-grandchildren of a monarch, at least until Charles becomes king.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #960  
Old 07-27-2013, 08:41 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Hamilton, Bermuda
Posts: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
The 1917 LPs regarding princely titles states that the children of the monarch, the male-line grandchildren of the monarch, the eldest son of the heir apparent's eldest son, and the wives of the above will be HRH Prince(ss). Further LPs have been issued to grant the children of the then Princess Elizabeth, the DoE, and now all the children of William the title, but until Charles is king any children of Harry's are not covered under the current LPs.

Harry's children would be comparable to the children of the Kents and Gloucesters - male-line great-grandchildren of a monarch, at least until Charles becomes king.

Oh I see, got it!

With regards to titles, If Harry gets Duke of Sussex, would he have 'more' as Kate has Countess of Strathearn, Baroness Carrickfergus added on the end of her title.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
prince harry, prince william, styles and titles


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





Additional Links
Popular Tags
birth charlene chris o'neill crown prince felipe crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess letizia crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria current events fashion grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri hohenzollern infanta elena infanta leonor infanta sofia jordan kate middleton king abdullah ii king carl xvi gustav king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander luxembourg olympic games ottoman picture of the month pom president hollande president komorowski prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince constantijn prince felipe prince floris prince pieter-christiaan princess princess aimee princess alexia (2005 -) princess anita princess ariane princess beatrix princess catharina-amalia princess charlene princess claire princess laurentien princess letizia princess mabel princess madeleine princess margriet princess mary queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen rania queen silvia queen sofia royal russia sofia hellqvist spain state visit wedding william



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:44 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]