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  #921  
Old 03-28-2013, 08:40 PM
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The difference with Elizabeth, Margaret and Anne compared to Alexandra, Beatrice and Eugenie is that the first three weren't Princess xxx of yyy because they were the daughters of the monarch and so were simply HRH The Princess xxx at the time of their marriages. Alexandra, Beatrice and Eugenie are Princesses xxxx of yyyy and so have something to change or simply add. Although the CC refers to Alexandra as HRH Princess Alexandra, Lady Ogilvy many less official places still call her Princess Alexandra of Kent. That being the case Beatrice and Eugenie may still frequently be called 'of York' even when married.
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  #922  
Old 03-28-2013, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by cepe View Post
Thank you I've rdeleted my message cos I remembered it was about 18 months after the wedding. Sorry.
No problem, you're tired.
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  #923  
Old 03-28-2013, 09:04 PM
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Keep in mind we also live in an era when women are less likely to take their husbands names upon marriage and the York princesses may make a similar choice. In the publivs mind they will remain "the Yorks" anyway, the daughters of the Duke of York.
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  #924  
Old 03-28-2013, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Keep in mind we also live in an era when women are less likely to take their husbands names upon marriage and the York princesses may make a similar choice. In the publivs mind they will remain "the Yorks" anyway, the daughters of the Duke of York.
I believe we're talking about official titles and styles.

In public mind, the Princess of Wales was "Princess Diana", the Duchess of Cambridge is "Princess Kate Middleton" and the Duchess of Conrwall is "Duchess Camilla", even though these ladies never held such titles.

Similarly, if Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie of York marry, they'll be Princess Beatrice/Eugenie, [husband's title or surname].

Maybe they would prefer to be know as Princesses of York, the Duchess of Kent prefers to be called Katherine Kent, but she is still HRH the Duchess of Kents.
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  #925  
Old 03-28-2013, 09:36 PM
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Honestly, I think Harry's kids probably will use an HRH title. Charles has only two sons, and I can't see William having a ton of kids- I see them having two, maybe three. That's still a pretty small royal family.

I think Beatrice and Eugenie have been marginalized more because of their parents' relationship. I can't see that happening to Harry's kids. Plus, William and Harry have such a strong relationship that I see Harry being a big support to William throughout their lives.
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  #926  
Old 03-28-2013, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire View Post
Similarly, if Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie of York marry, they'll be Princess Beatrice/Eugenie, [husband's title or surname].
I don't think there is any law or regulation that requires a woman, even a princess, to take her husbands name. It would seem very out of date if it was revealed that the princesses were forced to do so against their own wishes.
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  #927  
Old 03-28-2013, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
I don't think there is any law or regulation that requires a woman, even a princess, to take her husbands name. It would seem very out of date if it was revealed that the princesses were forced to do so against their own wishes.
Well, that the way titles and styles works. Remember that Catherine Middleton became Princess William, you can call it outdated, but that's the way it works.
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  #928  
Old 03-28-2013, 10:04 PM
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Not necessarily. Women have refused to adopt their husbands titles. Dame Norma Major is never Lady Major even though he is a KG. There are others as well.
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  #929  
Old 03-28-2013, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Not necessarily. Women have refused to adopt their husbands titles. Dame Norma Major is never Lady Major even though he is a KG. There are others as well.
Her title is Lady Major, DBE, since 2005.

That's her title. If she's uses it, it's another matter.
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  #930  
Old 03-28-2013, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire View Post
Her title is Lady Major, DBE, since 2005.

That's her title. If she's uses it, it's another matter.

Perhaps women in Brazil have less freedom than in the UK, but here no woman is compelled to take her husbands name or title upon marriage. It is a matter of personal choice. I see no reason why a British princess would be compelled to do so. She might be Mrs Smith to some but nothing can force her to add his name with hers.
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  #931  
Old 03-28-2013, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Perhaps women in Brazil have less freedom than in the UK, but here no woman is compelled to take her husbands name or title upon marriage. It is a matter of personal choice. I see no reason why a British princess would be compelled to do so. She might be Mrs Smith to some but nothing can force her to add his name with hers.
People in Brazil uses the title they have.

Norma Major is Lady Major. She can decide not to use her title, but the title is there.
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  #932  
Old 03-28-2013, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire View Post
People in Brazil uses the title they have.

Norma Major is Lady Major. She can decide not to use her title, but the title is there.
Well Lady Major was an option for her and one she rejected in favor of her own title Dame Norma. In the same vein I can see one or both of the York princesses rejecting the option to add Mrs Jones or Mrs Smith to their title and remain "of York". Of course they could always go the other way and decide they no longer wished to be known as HRH Princess but instead become Mrs Jones or Mrs Smith although I think their father would not be overly pleased with that choice.
Anyway I do believe it is the girls "of York" designation that would prevent Harry from becoming Duke of York when his uncle passes away. By that point in time William may have a son or grandson he might wish to confer the York dukedom on.
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  #933  
Old 03-28-2013, 10:55 PM
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Norma Major is a Dame in her own right.

She is a Lady because her husband is a Knight of the Garter.

She prefers to use the title that she herself earnt rather than the courtesy title that she gains through being John's wife.

Although her place in the Order of Precedence is higher as John's wife she prefers to use the title she earnt as the title of Dame is hers through her own efforts while that of Lady is because of her husband's.
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  #934  
Old 03-28-2013, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Well Lady Major was an option for her and one she rejected in favor of her own title Dame Norma. In the same vein I can see one or both of the York princesses rejecting the option to add Mrs Jones or Mrs Smith to their title and remain "of York". Of course they could always go the other way and decide they no longer wished to be known as HRH Princess but instead become Mrs Jones or Mrs Smith although I think their father would not be overly pleased with that choice.
Anyway I do believe it is the girls "of York" designation that would prevent Harry from becoming Duke of York when his uncle passes away. By that point in time William may have a son or grandson he might wish to confer the York dukedom on.
The fact that she chose to be know as Dame Norma Major doesn't change the fact that she's Lady Major.

The Duchess of Kent lives as Mrs. Katharine Kent, but she's HRH the Duchess of Kent.

Camilla chose to be know as the Duchess of Cornwall, but she's HRH the Princess of Wales.
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  #935  
Old 03-28-2013, 11:11 PM
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As per Wikipedia:


"Norma Major has been created a Dame Commander of the Order of the British Empire an she is named as Dame Norma Major in legal documents. As the wife of a Knight of the Garter, she may use also the courtesy title of 'Lady' as a prefix to her surname, provided she uses her husband's surname."

This means that:

1. Norma Major's official, legal title is Dame Norma Major
2. Her legal title is not Lady Major, and if she uses it it is simply by courtesy
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  #936  
Old 03-28-2013, 11:16 PM
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Which part of the word choice do you not understand? I am not denying that these women has title options, I am just saying they made a choice to either accept or reject their husbands titles in the same way as I suggested that Beatrice or Eugenie may reject the option of adding Mrs Smith or Mrs Jones to their descriptions. Not every married woman wants to use her husbands name or title.
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  #937  
Old 03-28-2013, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
As per Wikipedia:


"Norma Major has been created a Dame Commander of the Order of the British Empire an she is named as Dame Norma Major in legal documents. As the wife of a Knight of the Garter, she may use also the courtesy title of 'Lady' as a prefix to her surname, provided she uses her husband's surname."

This means that:

1. Norma Major's official, legal title is Dame Norma Major
2. Her legal title is not Lady Major, and if she uses it it is simply by courtesy
Wikipedia says this -

- Major's styles since her birth in chronological order are:
- Miss Norma Wagstaff (1942–45)
- Miss Norma Johnson (1945–70)
- Mrs. John Major (1970–99)
- Dame Norma Major, DBE (1999–present)
- Lady Major, DBE (2005–present)

Norma Major has been created a Dame Commander of the Order of the British Empire and she is named as Dame Norma Major in legal documents. As the wife of a Knight of the Garter, she may use also the courtesy title of "Lady" as a prefix to her surname, provided she uses her husband’s surname. Although this title places her higher in the Order of Precedence than her Damehood, she prefers to use the style Dame Norma Major as she acquired this distinction in her own right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norma_Major
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  #938  
Old 03-28-2013, 11:26 PM
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You know what, Brazilian, I think a few of us have made really good points in this argument that you've failed to see. I personally don't see any point in continuing this argument as I don't believe you're really reading what we're trying to say, although if others want to they can feel free.
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  #939  
Old 03-28-2013, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
You know what, Brazilian, I think a few of us have made really good points in this argument that you've failed to see. I personally don't see any point in continuing this argument as I don't believe you're really reading what we're trying to say, although if others want to they can feel free.
You provided your arguments, I provided mine. No one agreed. If you doesn't want to continue, it's okay.
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  #940  
Old 03-29-2013, 01:25 AM
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Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire View Post
The fact that she chose to be know as Dame Norma Major doesn't change the fact that she's Lady Major.

The Duchess of Kent lives as Mrs. Katharine Kent, but she's HRH the Duchess of Kent.

Camilla chose to be know as the Duchess of Cornwall, but she's HRH the Princess of Wales.

I actually don't think you get the difference between 'Dame' and 'Lady'.

Dame = a title held in your own right - she was made a Dame for her own work and will hold that title forever more.

Lady - a style she takes because of who she is married to - a style she would lose on divorce.

That the wife of a KG of the Garter gives her a higher position in the Order of Precedence than a Dame in her own right is why Wikipedia (hardly a reliable source in many cases) refers to her as Lady as the later title but it also says that legally, on legal documents etc she is referred to as Dame Norma Major - because that it a title she holds in her own right, through her own efforts while Lady is merely the style of the wife of a knight.
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