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  #701  
Old 05-12-2011, 01:45 AM
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They will never use Oxford, as the De Vere earldom of Oxford is still waiting for "the heir" and probably will be forever since it is unlikely someone can prove his right ot it after about 600 years... Still, the historic Oxford-title is dormant and thus it is unlikely it will be used for Harry.

Same for Inverness - that's Prince Andrew's earldom. I'm not sure about the others, though.
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  #702  
Old 05-14-2011, 10:36 AM
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I just read about the wedding of the Duke of Hamilton and found out that his new wife is the new "Countess of Cambridge" as the Duke of Hamilton has the secondary title of "Earl of Cambridge" - that means that as soon as the couple have their first son, there will be an "Earl of Cambridge" with that name.
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  #703  
Old 05-14-2011, 10:54 PM
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I just read about the wedding of the Duke of Hamilton and found out that his new wife is the new "Countess of Cambridge" as the Duke of Hamilton has the secondary title of "Earl of Cambridge" - that means that as soon as the couple have their first son, there will be an "Earl of Cambridge" with that name.
Hmmm. That is interesting. I am glad now that Harry doesn't have that title. Too many people with it.
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  #704  
Old 05-19-2011, 07:55 AM
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Hmmm. That is interesting. I am glad now that Harry doesn't have that title. Too many people with it.
That said I am reasonably sure that Harry will be given a dukedom when he marries.
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  #705  
Old 05-19-2011, 08:09 PM
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That said I am reasonably sure that Harry will be given a dukedom when he marries.
I think so to. Maybe he can get a subsidiary title with Northamptonshire in it as a tribute to his mother. Even if that does not happen I do see his title reflecting his mother some how as he is so keen to carry on her legacy.
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  #706  
Old 06-09-2011, 12:11 PM
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I believe the Queen will and can do a lot of things...as she did when she made Edward Earl of Wessex. I just think for the heir's heir she will stay within the confines of history.
ok.. slightly off topic.. I heard that Queen Elizabeth was going to make Prince Edward Duke of Cambridge but He requested Earl of Wessex instead so now that Dukedom of course has been bestowed to Prince William. Is this true???
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  #707  
Old 07-16-2011, 06:34 PM
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I was against the idea of Harry's children not having princely status purely because I like the idea of Royal cousins, but I have changed my mind. I feel that in this day and age, they will have a much easier time growing up if they don't have princely titles. Just look at how the York Princesses can do no right. Zara was criticised as well when she was younger, but it was less intense, because she couldn't be called a sponger or freeloader. I suppose this is more of an arguement for not giving them a Royal income, but it makes things more clearly defined if title and income go together. I adore The Kents and The Gloucesters, but a smaller Royal Family is more in keeping with the modern age.
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  #708  
Old 07-16-2011, 07:46 PM
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But Harry's children will have princely status.. the moment Charles becomes king. As the male line grandchildren of the monarch, Harry's children will be entitled to the HRH.

Personally, I think Duke of Sussex will be bestowed upon him when he marries. Oxford will certainly not be used.. and though Clarence is available, it has a very bad history and presumably would not be the first choice if there are others that could be given instead.

If Harry marries and has a child (or children) while the Queen lives, then they will not be entitled to the HRH as great-grandchildren of the sovereign - therefore they will be styled as the children of a duke, if Harry holds a ducal title.

But once Charles becomes king, then Harry's children will be the male line grandchildren of the sovereign, and will from that point be styled HRH.
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  #709  
Old 07-16-2011, 08:46 PM
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Harry could always do what Edward did, and I think Charles would approve of it given he wants to downsize The Monarchy. It would help keep them out of the media's glare. I didn't mean to suggest anything outragous. It's just an idea that I wouldn't stand in the way of. Am I just very bad with words?
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  #710  
Old 08-01-2011, 02:28 AM
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Future Duke Title for Harry

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Originally Posted by HM Queen Catherine View Post

Personally, I think Duke of Sussex will be bestowed upon him when he marries. Oxford will certainly not be used.. and though Clarence is available, it has a very bad history and presumably would not be the first choice if there are others that could be given instead.
I'm changing the subject a little bit, but wanted to explore everyone's thoughts on my theory for an alternative Ducal Title for Harry. By all accounts, I believe Harry will be granted the Title Duke of Sussex as it is one of the options that falls within the traditional pattern of royal dukes but, what about Suffolk? Follow my logic below.

There are many Duke titles out there, however, there are certain titles that are reserved for the direct royal family. Generally speaking but not always Royal Duke titles come from one of two catagories.

First, from the original list of 5 duke titles handed down from Edward III, Cornwall, Clarence, Lancaster, York and Gloucester. Of these five titles, four are in use, only Clarence is available.

Also, Clarence is the only royal ducal title named after a town rather than a region or county. The town of Clare is located in County Suffolk in the old kingdom of East Anglia. This becomes important below.

Second, from the list of old Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms of the Heptarchy, Wessex, Sussex, Essex, Kent, Mercia, East Anglia and Northumbria. Of these seven titles technically only three are currently in use, Wessex, Kent and Northumbria. However, I can make the case that acutally four or five of these titles are in use but under a different name.

To assist in my analysis, I used a couple of maps of England. A simple map of England with the county outlines and then a map of the Heptarchy boundaries. Earl of Wessex is in use by Edward Windsor, Kent is in use by Richard Windsor and Northumbria is in use by the Percy family. I also believe that Mercia is in use but this old kingdom has been split into two dukedoms, Gloucester in use by Edward Windsor and Cambridge now recently granted to William and Kate. So, we now have a precedence for an old kingdom to be split and renamed into multiple dukedoms.

The Duke of East Anglia doesn't have a very good ring to it. However, the old kingdom boundaries are now made up of two counties, Norfolk which is also a dukedom and Suffolk which is currently an extinct ducal title and where the town of Clare is located. Norfolk is the premier, non-royal dukedom in England. However, if Suffolk is created for Harry, it would out rank Norfolk and be the ranking ducal title of old East Anglia.

My suggestion is grant the traditional Dukedom of Clarence to Harry but under the name of Suffolk. In doing so, re-establishes the origianal 5 dukedoms first granted by Edward III all into the House of Windsor, effectively fullfills the ranking ducal title of old East Anglia and maintains the traditional ducal title within the Royal Family. Suffolk "kills three birds with one stone".

A little lengthy I know, but what do you think?
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  #711  
Old 08-01-2011, 03:31 AM
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Originally Posted by cmsteepy View Post
My suggestion is grant the traditional Dukedom of Clarence to Harry but under the name of Suffolk. In doing so, re-establishes the origianal 5 dukedoms first granted by Edward III all into the House of Windsor, effectively fullfills the ranking ducal title of old East Anglia and maintains the traditional ducal title within the Royal Family. Suffolk "kills three birds with one stone".

A little lengthy I know, but what do you think?
Your logic is plausible and your thoughts on the matter are sound. But I would point out that the history of the Suffolk title is not all that great either, and it was never created for or held by a Royal.

The first Earl of Suffolk, the ancestor of the 1st Duke (1st creation), was the son of a wool merchant. His grandson William became Duke of Suffolk in 1448 and was Lord Chamberlain, but his negotiation of the king's marriage to Margaret of Anjou ceded both Maine and Anjou back to France and he was held responsible for the loss of those and other English possessions. His titles were forfeit in 1450 when he was arrested and imprisoned in the Tower. He was murdered shortly thereafter.

John, the 2nd Duke, obtained a restoration of his father's title in 1463, and he was loyal to Henry VII after Bosworth but all three of his surviving sons rebelled.

John's son Edmund succeeded as 3rd Duke of Suffolk in 1491, but was demoted to Earl in 1493. He led a rebellion against Henry VII and his earldom was forfeit in 1504. He was executed by Henry VIII in 1513.

The title was then created for Charles Brandon, 1st Duke (2nd creation), who was the son of a knight and the best friend of Henry VIII. He was a member of the royal family by marriage, but was given his title before then, so it cannot be considered a Royal title.

His successors were his two sons by his marriage to Catherine Willoughby. The eldest, Henry, became the 2nd Duke in 1545 (when he was ten) but died in 1551 of the sweating sickness. His younger brother and successor, Charles, became the 3rd Duke and holds the record for the shortest tenure of a British peerage.. he died an hour after his brother.

The last creation of the title was for Henry Grey, Marquess of Dorset, in October 1551, three months after the death of Charles Brandon. His title was actually "jure uxoris". Of course, he was executed for leading a rebellion and for the whole Lady Jane Grey fiasco, although he had no sons to inherit the title anyway.

Given that the Suffolk ducal title has not been regranted since 1554 and was never a Royal title in the first place, I would say the possibility is remote that Harry would be given this one.

Besides, the title Earl of Suffolk is still extant and has been held by the Howard family since 1603. The first Earl (4th creation) was a son of the 4th Duke of Norfolk and the current holder is Michael Howard, 21st Earl of Suffolk and 14th Earl of Berkshire. His son, Viscount Andover, is the heir apparent and was born in 1974.

On the other hand, the Sussex title has only been granted once as a Royal dukedom to Prince Augustus Frederick, a son of George III. His only history was the fact that he married twice, both in violation of the Royal Marriages Act, and his two children were therefore illegitimate. His title became extinct with his death in 1843.

The title Earl of Sussex has been created six times, with the last creation held by Alastair Arthur Windor, 2nd Duke of Connaught and Strathearn, 2nd Earl of Sussex. He was the grandson of HRH The Prince Arthur, and his titles died with him in 1943.
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  #712  
Old 08-01-2011, 07:53 AM
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This might be a dumb question, but could Harry not give his children titles ( like Zara and Peter ) and later if they decided they wanted a title give them one then?
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  #713  
Old 08-01-2011, 08:02 AM
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This might be a dumb question, but could Harry not give his children titles ( like Zara and Peter ) and later if they decided they wanted a title give them one then?

A better example would be Edward and his decision over Louise and James. Harry, like Edward, is a male line descendent of a monarch and could chose to follow his uncle's example to have his children styled as the children of whatever title he might have.

Zara and Peter weren't entitled to titles under the 1917 LPs as they are descended from the monarch through a girl. They could only get titles through their father - but he had none - or if they were given them in their own right.

Not having any title isn't really an option in the sense that Anne did with her children because they have one whereas Anne's didn't have titles at birth. Harry's will have them at birth simply because he is male.
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  #714  
Old 08-01-2011, 11:11 AM
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Given that the Suffolk ducal title has not been regranted since 1554 and was never a Royal title in the first place, I would say the possibility is remote that Harry would be given this one.

Besides, the title Earl of Suffolk is still extant and has been held by the Howard family since 1603. The first Earl (4th creation) was a son of the 4th Duke of Norfolk and the current holder is Michael Howard, 21st Earl of Suffolk and 14th Earl of Berkshire. His son, Viscount Andover, is the heir apparent and was born in 1974.
Great points, thank you. The fact that the title Earl of Suffolk is still extant (especially as a subsidiary title to Norfolk) is probably the most compelling argument to me for not creating it as a ducal title. If this was not the case, I could have seen a scenario where the College of Arms could have drafted some creative language tying the old Clarence dukedom to a new name of Suffolk and giving the title a clean slate.

However, in the end the title Duke of Sussex is still very traditional and fits the Heptarchy pattern. So, in the future, when it is time to discuss the titles for the future sons of William and Kate, ducal titles possibly availabe for the second son could be Cambridge (passed down from William's current title), York (as Andrew has no current heir), Clarence (but not likely as previously discussed) and Essex?
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  #715  
Old 08-01-2011, 07:36 PM
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So, in the future, when it is time to discuss the titles for the future sons of William and Kate, ducal titles possibly availabe for the second son could be Cambridge (passed down from William's current title), York (as Andrew has no current heir), Clarence (but not likely as previously discussed) and Essex?
When it comes to the future sons of William and Catherine, the Cambridge title will be inherited by their eldest son, unless the letters patent are changed to explicitly bestow it on another son. When William is king, his eldest son will presumably be the Prince of Wales as well as the Duke of Cornwall and Rothesay. The moment William dies, his eldest son will both inherit and lose the Cambridge title, since it will merge with the crown as soon as he succeeds.

York is a shaky possibility.. if Prince Andrew proves to be as long lived as his parents, I don't see William's 2nd son getting that title.. maybe one of his grandsons.

Essex is still extant as an earldom. It has been created nine times, with the current holder being Frederick Paul Capell, 11th Earl of Essex. He is 66 years old and has never married.. but he does have an heir - William Jennings Capell of California, USA - his 4th cousin once removed. And Mr. Capell has a son to succeed him.

The possible royal dukedoms to consider for younger sons of William and Catherine would most likely be:

Hereford - Kendal - Ross - and maybe Connaught
(not forgetting Clarence, of course, and presuming Harry gets Sussex)

There has only been one Duke of Hereford, Henry of Bolingbroke, who became Henry IV. That title merged with the crown, where it has remained since 1399.

Duke of Kendal was created for an infant son of James II, Charles Stuart, but he didn't survive longer than a year.. there have also been creations for Earl of Kendal, but the title is currently extinct.

Duke of Ross was created twice in the peerage of Scotland, for younger sons of the King of Scotland. There have been numerous creations of Earl of Ross as well, but these are all now extinct. Personally, I'd like to see a revival of this title..

Duke of Connaught is an Irish title, which probably would not be used unless it was a last resort.. these days, with all the trouble in Northern Ireland, it may not be a wise choice to create a new dukedom with this name.
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  #716  
Old 08-02-2011, 10:54 AM
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Essex is still extant as an earldom. It has been created nine times, with the current holder being Frederick Paul Capell, 11th Earl of Essex. He is 66 years old and has never married.. but he does have an heir - William Jennings Capell of California, USA - his 4th cousin once removed. And Mr. Capell has a son to succeed him.
Well, your thoughts have been thorough and well thought out and I was ready to accept the fact that options for Royal Ducal Titles were running thin. Then I saw this news below which appears to indicate that it is possible for the monarch to create a Dukedom from a title already extant by an Earldom? I would like to get your thoughts.

And little more than a week after the world had celebrated another royal marriage between the new Duke and Duchess of Cambridge in London, there was a new Countess of Cambridge in Miss Rutherford - taking the title from her husband, who is also the Earl of Cambridge.
Wedding of 16th Duke of Hamilton / News / Roundup / Articles / East Lothian Courier Please also see:

Alexander Douglas-Hamilton, 16th Duke of Hamilton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  #717  
Old 08-02-2011, 12:00 PM
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I have a question about HRH Prince Henry Moutbatten-Windsor....on his wedding day what will his new title be...for him and his bride? The second son is ussually York..but Andrew and Sahra have that...so what in the world would Handsome Harry be?
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  #718  
Old 08-02-2011, 01:17 PM
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Good question that a lot of us are curious about and just happens to be the topic of discussion most recently in this sub-forum. See thread above.

In summary, speculation has it that Harry and his future wife will be granted the titles Duke and Duchess of Sussex. There is a lot of tradition behind the choosing of an appropriate Royal Title and below is my analysis (modified with input from user Queen Catherine) of why Sussex could be a leading candidate.

There are many Duke titles out there, however, there are certain titles that are reserved for the direct royal family. Generally speaking but not always Royal Duke titles come from one of two catagories.

First, from the original list of 5 duke titles handed down from Edward III, Cornwall, Clarence, Lancaster, York and Gloucester. Of these five titles, four are in use, only Clarence is available.

Second, from the list of old Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms of the Heptarchy, Wessex, Sussex, Essex, Kent, Mercia, East Anglia and Northumbria. Of these seven titles two are currently Dukedoms extant meaning "in use" (Kent and Northumbria) two are Earldoms extant, (Wessex and Essex) and two have essentially been split and renamed (East Anglia and Mercia). East Anglia has not been used as a title to my knowledge, however, the geographic area of East Anglia has been renamed and is now known as the counties of Norfolk and Suffolk which are a Dukedom and Earldom respectively. Similar with Mercia, whose geographic area is now split between the Dukedoms of Gloucester and Cambridge extant.

So, that leaves two obvious options (and other less obvious ones) Clarence and Sussex. Some will argue that the Title of Clarence has bad associations from previous title holders and therefore, is not a popular choice for Harry. That leaves us with one likely candidate, Sussex.

We will now have to wait and see!
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Old 08-03-2011, 12:36 AM
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Thank you cmsteepy. That was very organized and informative. Duke of Clarence would be a great Title for Harry if it wasn't for the bad history that is connected to it. Because of that, I wouldn't really want Harry to have that Title. I agree with you Duke of Sussex would be a good one and a popular choice.
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Old 08-03-2011, 12:53 AM
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Is Duke of Pembroke available?

Harry can't give titles to anyone, can he? Only the monarch can do that, right?
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