Titles and Styles of Harry, his Future Wife and Children

[Ish]

No.

Most British titles can only be passed in direct male lines.

Had the 8th Earl Spencer not had any sons then his titles would have gone to the next senior most male-line, male descendant of an earlier Earl. As the 8th Earl was the only son of the 7th Earl, then the common line of descent would have been the 6th Earl. He had 3 sons, Albert (the 7th Earl), Cecil (who died without children), and George. George's only son, Robert, was alive in 1992 (if the peerage is accurate, he's still alive) when the 8th Earl died and would have succeeded to the title had the 8th Earl not had sons. As Robert Spencer has no children, and the only male line from the 1st Earl Spencer that still exists today goes through the 6th Earl, then had the 8th Earl died without sons then Robert likely would have been the last Earl before the title became extinct. At which point, it is entirely possible that it could have been recreated for William or Harry.

 

[cepe]

(Edward) John Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer (1924-1992) was the father of Diana, Princess of Wales and Prince Henry's maternal grandfather.

Scenario:
Suppose Diana had been the only child of the 8th Earl Spencer.
Would Prince Harry have been able to become the new Earl Spencer upon his grandfather's demise?
​

No. The title would have passed to the next male heir (nephew; cousin etc) in the male line, ie not via a female descendant.

This would have been complex as 7th Earl had only one son

6th Earl had only 7th Earl with issue. Without detailed work, as daughters seem to prevail over sons, working out who would be heir is difficult but it would't be Harry.

 

[Iluvbertie]

(Edward) John Spencer, 8th Earl Spencer (1924-1992) was the father of Diana, Princess of Wales and Prince Henry's maternal grandfather.

Scenario:
Suppose Diana had been the only child of the 8th Earl Spencer.
Would Prince Harry have been able to become the new Earl Spencer upon his grandfather's demise?
​

No.

The LPs creating the Spence title - like most British titles - allow only for 'heirs male of the body' to inherit the title and so Diana could never have inherited her father's title and thus wouldn't have been able to pass it to either of her sons - but had she a title in her own right is would automatically have gone to William until it would have merged with the Crown on his accession.

Looking back to the Edinburgh title - note that Anne, Beatrice, Eugenie and Louise aren't in the line of succession to that title - because they are girls.

Louise can't inherit the Wessex title as she is a girl and Beatrice can't inherit York for the same reason.

A major reason why Diana's father was so disappointed when she was born was the fact that she was a girl as that meant three children but still no heir to the Spencer title from his direct line and as he didn't have a brother the title would have passed to a cousin had he not had Charles as his fourth child.

 

[Skippyboo]

It like the Earldom of Grantham on Downton Abbey- his 3 Daughters couldn't inherit so the heir was the next male which was Matthew who was a distant cousin. Since Matthew was killed, his son became the heir because of his dad not because his mom is the eldest daughter.

 

[Furienna]

Yeah, but such rules can make some unnecessarily complicated scenarios. I mean, what if Matthew's and Mary's child had been a girl? Who would have been the heir then?

 

[Iluvbertie]

Some more distant cousin no doubt.

 

[Skippyboo]

Or the Labrador

 

[Queen Camilla]

What if Charles doesn't make Edward Duke of Edinburgh?
Or if Edward dies before the Queen, then maybe Charles will give the Duke of Edinburgh title to Harry.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Having made the announcement in 1999 that Charles will create Edward Duke of Edinburgh when the time comes it would be seen as very, very bad for Charles to not honour that agreement.

Should Edward predecease The Queen and Philip - after all it takes both of their deaths for the title to become available - I would hope that Charles would then continue to honour the agreement - and its spirit and create James, Duke of Edinburgh. The intention of the agreement is for the Edward to eventually become a Duke and thus in turn for James to also become a Duke and the selected title for them has also been announced as Edinburgh.

 

[Osipi]

What if Charles doesn't make Edward Duke of Edinburgh?
Or if Edward dies before the Queen, then maybe Charles will give the Duke of Edinburgh title to Harry.

Somehow it is hard for me to picture Charles not honoring the wishes of his parents. He rightfully could do so but I think he is not the kind of person that would.

If Edward should predecease the Queen, and Charles becomes King after the passing of both the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh, my guess would be that Charles would hold the title in reserve for whomever takes on the Duke of Edinburgh Award and Philip's charities. It may be Harry but I really doubt it.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

When Edward is the Duke of Edinburgh, then his son James becomes Heir. Usually a Dukedom is granted with three dignities, in this case the creation would be: Viscount Severn, Earl of Wessex and Duke of Edinburgh.

Edward then is the Duke of Edinburgh, his son James the Earl of Wessex and James' future eldest son the Viscount Severn. When Edward predeceases his mother Queen Elizabeth, I can still imagine that King Charles III will create his nephew James the new Duke of Edinburgh.

I think that Prince Harry will take up residence at Clarence House and become the future Duke of Clarence. That would be a nice match between residence and title.

 

[tommy100]

At the time William married I'm sure I read somewhere that Harry would get the title Duke of Sussex

 

[wyevale]

I think 'Sussex' ia a more likely ducal title for Prince Harry. It is an actual place with defined boundaries.

'Clarence' sounds rather camp to me, and [as far as i'm aware] is not a geographical reality. Pore as i have over maps of the United Kingdom, i cannot find it... and wonder where the name and title originates.

 

[Molly2101]

I think Sussex will be the title of choice, but with Wessex and Sussex it's quite a mouthful!

I also don't think his children with be HRH's as I feel Charles will change the current LP when he is King.

 

[HRHHermione]

I think Sussex will be the title of choice, but with Wessex and Sussex it's quite a mouthful!

I also don't think his children with be HRH's as I feel Charles will change the current LP when he is King.

I can't see that happening- Charles choosing to strip Harry's children of the right to be an HRH. It's possible that like the Wessex children, they'll choose not to use it, but I think Charles officially changing it would come off as really stingy and unfair.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I think 'Sussex' ia a more likely ducal title for Prince Harry. It is an actual place with defined boundaries.

'Clarence' sounds rather camp to me, and [as far as i'm aware] is not a geographical reality. Pore as i have over maps of the United Kingdom, i cannot find it... and wonder where the name and title originates.

Clarence comes from Clare in Suffolk, England, near Bury St Edmunds. The name comes from the family De Clare, Norman lords who accompanied William the Conqueror into England. Around 1050 Messire Richard fitz Gilbert, Seigneur de Bienfait et d'Orbec became Lord of Clarence and of Tonbridge, Joint Chief Justiciar of England. So Clare/Clarence is one of the oldest English dignities...

 

[wyevale]

Thankou, Duc et Pair. Thats very interesting.

Still prefer 'Sussex' though !

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I can't see that happening- Charles choosing to strip Harry's children of the right to be an HRH. It's possible that like the Wessex children, they'll choose not to use it, but I think Charles officially changing it would come off as really stingy and unfair.

Note that no one has been "stripped off". Legally James is HRH Prince James of Wessex, Viscount Severn. Legally Louise is HRH Princess Louise of Wessex. Like Camilla is legally HRH The Princess of Wales. All these individuals are known with another style but none of them has actually been "stripped off" anything at all.

When in the future James decides to use his princely dignity, then he has the full right to do so.

 

[HRHHermione]

Note that no one has been "stripped off". Legally James is HRH Prince James of Wessex, Viscount Severn. Legally Louise is HRH Princess Louise of Wessex. Like Camilla is legally HRH The Princess of Wales. All these individuals are known with another style but none of them has actually been "stripped off" anything at all.

When in the future James decides to use his princely dignity, then he has the full right to do so.

I know that- that's what I was saying would be a more likely choice for Harry's children than Charles issuing new LPs to deny them the HRH legally.

Personally, I think Harry's children will be HRHs and will use the title. I don't think Charles wants to slim down the monarchy quite that much.

 

[Pranter]

I don't imagine Harry's children would be denied HRH/titles unless, like Anne, Harry decided against using them.


LaRae

 

[ff462]

I think that Prince Harry will take up residence at Clarence House and become the future Duke of Clarence. That would be a nice match between residence and title.

Unfortunately, the Clarence title is tied up in a legal matter. The title 'Earl of Clarence' was given to Queen Victoria's fourth son, whose own son inherited it. However, his son fought in WW1 on Germany's side, so his titles were taken away from him.
Thus, the title isn't being used any more but legally, the heirs of the title have the right to reclaim them so it would be a bit strange if Harry just used the Clarence title anyway.

As the second son of the future king, I thought it would be nice if he could use a title associated with his position, like how the Duke of York is always given to the second son. The Scottish equivalent of the Duke of York is the Duke of Albany but that's tied up in the same legal matter

 

[Iluvbertie]

The Earl of Clarence may be tied up but Queen Victoria herself created her grandson Duke of Clarence after creating her youngest son Earl of Clarence so both titles existed in the UK in the 1890s with no problems.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I don't imagine Harry's children would be denied HRH/titles unless, like Anne, Harry decided against using them.


LaRae

A better example would be Harry following Edward's example and not using the HRH Prince/Princess styles for his children, once his father becomes King.

Anne's children were never entitled to that styling as they are descendants of the monarch through a girl and girls can't pass on titles.

In 1988, when Beatrice was born, no one even considered the idea of her not begin a princess as she was entitled to that styling under the 1917 LPs but now things are different and many people would like to see fewer people with HRH Prince/Princess.

As Harry's children, will also be the children of the second son, and the view seems very strongly to be that the children of younger sons aren't to be involved in royal work there is no need for them to have royal titles.

I do think that Charles will issue new LPs to limit the HRH to the children of the heir apparent but not the children of other heirs. He won't strip anyone who currently holds HRH but won't have that styling extended to Harry's children. It should also be remembered that in the current reign Harry's children aren't going to be HRH anyway but Lord and Lady.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I don't imagine Harry's children would be denied HRH/titles unless, like Anne, Harry decided against using them.


LaRae

Essentially Princess Anne had nothing to deny against the use of any title: her children would never have inherited one from her anyway, since titles are inherited via the paternal lineage. Rumours said it was Captain Mark Phillips himself who denied an offered peerage.

The situation of Princess Anne and her nephew Prince Harry is different. No matter Prince Harry likes it or not, his children WILL become a Prince (Princess) with the style of a Royal Highness. Of course, like his uncle Prince Edward, also Prince Harry can decide to refer to his children with another style. As Prince Harry is not in the main line (his nephew George is now), his grandchildren will become "normal" aristocrats anyway, like today's Earl of Ulster or Earl of St Andrews.

 

[Pranter]

I forgot how that works.. I thought Anne's children would also be prince/princesses by bloodline.


LaRae

 

[Osipi]

I don't imagine Harry's children would be denied HRH/titles unless, like Anne, Harry decided against using them.

It does seem to be the going trend, with the exception of Andrew, that the HRH titles are not used for those children not in the direct line to the throne. I wouldn't be one bit surprised if Harry follows and prefers his children do not use the HRH titles.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I forgot how that works.. I thought Anne's children would also be prince/princesses by bloodline.


LaRae

George V issued Letters Patent determining who is an HRH Prince/Princess:

1, children of the monarch - Charles, Anne, Andrew and Edward - and the spouses of the men - Camilla and Sophie but not the spouse of the women - so no HRH for Tim

2, male-line grandchildren of the monarch - William, Harry, Beatrice, Eugenie, Louise, James, Richard, Edward, Alexandra and Michael - plus the spouses of the men - Kate, Birgitte, Katherine and Marie-Christine but again not the spouse of the women - so no HRH for the late Angus Ogilvy

no HRH for the children of the girls - so no HRH for the children of Princesses Mary, Margaret or Anne - all the daughters of monarchs but whose children have no titles from their mothers although Mary and Margaret's do through their fathers.

3, the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales - covers George but...The Queen had already extended that provision to give ALL of William's children HRH - so that had George been a girl she would have been born a princess

Even Elizabeth couldn't pass on HRH to Charles under these LPs. Had George VI not issued additional LPs in 1948 then Charles would have been born Lord Charles Mountbatten, Earl of Merioneth - and still 2nd in line to the throne.

When Margaret married she and Tony refused a title for Tony but then when she was pregnant she decided that she wanted her children to have a title so Tony was given Snowden.

Anne and Mark refused a title for Mark both at the wedding and again when Anne was expecting Peter.

For Anne special provisions would have been needed - specific LPs whereas for Andrew and Edward - their children were automatically HRHs under the existing rules.

Edward and Sophie have decided not to have their children use it - and there has been some debate as to whether or not 'The Queen's Will' is all that is required to strip them of the title with experts in this area arguing both Yes and No. I highly doubt that Louise and James will ever use HRH and as neither of them can pass it on it will simply die with them anyway - just as it would with Harry's children - for them but not for their children.

 

[Skippyboo]

It seems unlikely that Louise would 15 years from now when she is grown up would start using her royal title. Since any of Harry's kids won't be HRH until Charles is King and can't pass the HRH on anyways, it would make sense to follow how Edward and Sophie did it. It is a different story for William's other future kids. The Queen has already made them HRHs from birth and the sons can pass their HRHs down since the kids will be male line grand kids of the monarch (William)

 

[angieuk]

So is it fair to say?

Prince William's sons, and grandsons will be Princes.

Prince William daughters, Princesses but their sons NOT Princes??

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

So is it fair to say?

Prince William's sons, and grandsons will be Princes.

Prince William daughters, Princesses but their sons NOT Princes??

That is -until now- the system. The eldest son of a Duke, Marquess, Earl, Viscount, Baron or a Baronet inherit the title. Not his younger brothers, not his sisters. Is that fair? It is how the system works.

In the northern half of the continent there is a different system: all children of a titled person inherit the title but it can only passed by male lineage. For an example Queen Mathilde of the Belgians. She and her siblings Elisabeth, Hélène and Charles-Henri are all Count(ess) d'Udekem d'Acoz as children of the late Patrick Count d'Udekem d'Acoz. But only the children of Charles-Henri will become the next generation Counts (Countesses) d'Udekem d'Acoz. Mathilde's own children have a title from their father King Philippe of the Belgians. Her sister Elisabeth's children have a title from their father Don Alfonso, Marquess Pallavicini. Her sister Hélène's daughter has a title from her father Nicolas Baron Jansen. This is an example how you see that the titles are passed via the male lineage.