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  #621  
Old 07-19-2010, 01:25 PM
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I am prepared to be contradicted, however I have to say that according to my understanding, if the Prince of Wales died before he became king, his children being High and Mighty Princes would become princes with the prefix, The. This is a convention rather than a law - as are most royal decrees - within the peerage sons and daughters of Dukes have the prefix, The before lord or lady to distinguish them from children of marquises and earls. If a distant cousin inherited a dukedom, the sovereign usually gives permission for his brothers and sisters to have the courtesy title of e.g. The Lord John Smith and the Lady Mary Smith. John Smith, if married his wife would be The Lady John Smith.

If The Prince Andrew remarried and had a male heir he would be styled, prince. By current trends he may be styled Lord Inverness, but traditionally he would inherit the dukedom of York, and his son would be Earl of Inverness. Very few royal dukedoms last more than three generations for some reason, by which time they have moved directly out of the royal circle. The only royal dukedoms to survive in the direct line from the 18th and 19th centuries are those of Cumberland, and of Albany. However, in 1917 King George V abrogated British titles which had devolved upon his cousins, then German nationals.
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  #622  
Old 07-20-2010, 11:46 AM
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Sorry if it's been covered already or this is the wrong place to post it (hope I don't make a mistake on my first post!).

Where would the future wives of Princes William and Harry fit into the line of precedence with the royal ladies?

Thank you.
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  #623  
Old 07-20-2010, 11:50 AM
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I would imagine they would come AFTER the Queen and the Duchess of Cornwall but BEFORE everyone else (Countess of Wessex, Princess Royal, Duchess of Gloucester, Duchess of Kent and Princess Alexandra of Kent).
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  #624  
Old 07-20-2010, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
I would imagine they would come AFTER the Queen and the Duchess of Cornwall but BEFORE everyone else (Countess of Wessex, Princess Royal, Duchess of Gloucester, Duchess of Kent and Princess Alexandra of Kent).
Would that be the same if Prince Charles were to hypothetically not be around, or would William and Harry's wives be placed above the Duchess of Cornwall?
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  #625  
Old 07-20-2010, 12:09 PM
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I would think so, because Camilla would still be the wife of Prince Charles even if he wasn't alive.
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  #626  
Old 07-20-2010, 12:11 PM
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Thanks for that Zonk.

In terms of Court Precedence would they likely follow the Duchess of Cornwall after the Princess Royal and Princess Alexandra, but come before the Countess of Wessex?
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  #627  
Old 07-20-2010, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotslass View Post
Thanks for that Zonk.

In terms of Court Precedence would they likely follow the Duchess of Cornwall after the Princess Royal and Princess Alexandra, but come before the Countess of Wessex?
Princess Alexandra is further down the list, since she is the granddaughter of a sovereign and not the child or spouse of a child of a sovereign.
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  #628  
Old 07-20-2010, 12:33 PM
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According to this, don't know if it's 100%
Order of precedence in England and Wales - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

^^^
That link says the order goes like this
1. The Queen
2. The Princess Royal
3. Princes Beatrice
4. Princess Eugenie
5. The Lady Louise Wessex
6. Zara Phillips
7. Princess Alexandra
8. The Duchess of Cornwall
9. The Countess of Wessex
10. The Duchess of Gloucester
11. The Duchess of Kent
13. Princess Michael of Kent

but I found another little drop down box that says it goes like this

1. The Queen
2. The Duchess of Cornwall
3. The Countess of Wessex
4. The Princess Royal
5. Princess Beatrice
6. Princess Eugenie
7. Lady Louise
8. Duchess of Gloucester
9. Duchess of Kent
10. Princess Michael of Kent
11. Princess Alexandra

and two other ladies who I do not know.
I would imagine when they married, the ladies would slot in above the Countess of Wessex and below The Duchess of Cornwall.
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  #629  
Old 07-20-2010, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by LaPlusBelle View Post
Princess Alexandra is further down the list, since she is the granddaughter of a sovereign and not the child or spouse of a child of a sovereign.
Thanks. I was just wondering as I read somewhere that the Queen changed the order of precedence after Prince Charles' wedding for court things so that those born Princesses (the Princess Royal and Princess Alexandra) were above those who married in.

I was just wondering if that would mean a wife of Prince William, expected to be a future Queen, would come below The Princess Royal, Princess Beatrice etc.

Thank you for clearing that up for me.
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  #630  
Old 07-20-2010, 05:48 PM
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Courtesy styles do not apply to male-line grandchildren of The Sovereign. They are automatically HRH Prince/Princess of the UK under the 1917 Letters Patent at birth.

Edward and Sophie requested their children not hold royal rank in order to allow them the benefit of having a more normal upbringing. The Queen agreed, but technically James and Louise remain HRH Prince James of Wessex and HRH Princess Louise of Wessex, although they are instead using courtesy styles as children of a Peer.

The first list is court precedence as determined by The Queen for royal occasions and can be changed at any time. The Duchess of Cornwall is currently fourth, after Her Majesty, The Princess Royal, and Princess Alexandra.

The second list is the official precedence of the Kingdom, which never changes and is the one that really counts. Here The Duchess is second after The Queen as she is the wife of the heir to the throne and next to become Queen Consort.
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  #631  
Old 07-20-2010, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
The first list is court precedence as determined by The Queen for royal occasions and can be changed at any time. The Duchess of Cornwall is currently fourth, after Her Majesty, The Princess Royal, and Princess Alexandra.

The second list is the official precedence of the Kingdom, which never changes and is the one that really counts. Here The Duchess is second after The Queen as she is the wife of the heir to the throne and next to become Queen Consort.
So officially then would the future wives of Princes William and Harry follow the Duchess of Cornwall then?

Sorry for all the questions. My 6 year old son has got into Monarchies and the British Royal Family in a big way, but things like precedence are not something I really learned much about myself.
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  #632  
Old 07-20-2010, 09:15 PM
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you misunderstood what I meant, the secondary titles.
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  #633  
Old 07-20-2010, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Donna Mia View Post
you misunderstood what I meant, the secondary titles.

Who misunderstood?

What are you now talking about?
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  #634  
Old 07-20-2010, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotslass View Post
So officially then would the future wives of Princes William and Harry follow the Duchess of Cornwall then?
They would rank after both The Duchess of Cornwall and The Countess of Wessex as the wives of male-line grandsons of The Queen. Once Charles became King, William and Harry's wives would rank directly after Camilla as Queen Consort.
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  #635  
Old 07-21-2010, 12:21 AM
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HRH Prince James of Wessex and HRH Princess Louise of Wessex
that sounds so good; I wish they used those titles. I'm not in agreement with the plan that I've heard Prince Charles wants to limit the prince/ss titles to the children of the monarch only (as compared with grandchildren at present), like some of the European countries.

After all, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of princes/sses in Europe, mostly Germany, who are not Royal, but of Princely families.

I don't suggest the taxpayer has to pay for every prince/ss, just those ones that have been delegated to do Royal duty.
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  #636  
Old 07-21-2010, 11:14 AM
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They should be able to clarify in legislation whom should be conpensated by taxpayers and whom should not, while the ones not still being able to carry a title.
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  #637  
Old 07-21-2010, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Donna Mia View Post
They should be able to clarify in legislation whom should be conpensated by taxpayers and whom should not, while the ones not still being able to carry a title.
I do not believe there is any need for legislation on this at all in the context of the BRF.
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  #638  
Old 07-21-2010, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by EllieCat View Post
that sounds so good; I wish they used those titles. I'm not in agreement with the plan that I've heard Prince Charles wants to limit the prince/ss titles to the children of the monarch only (as compared with grandchildren at present), like some of the European countries.

After all, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of princes/sses in Europe, mostly Germany, who are not Royal, but of Princely families.

I don't suggest the taxpayer has to pay for every prince/ss, just those ones that have been delegated to do Royal duty.
It is really not in our culture to have a large number of princes and princesses who do not undertake royal duties, hence the thoughts to reduce the number of people who have royal titles and carry out engagements on behalf of the monarch
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  #639  
Old 07-21-2010, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by muriel View Post
It is really not in our culture to have a large number of princes and princesses who do not undertake royal duties, hence the thoughts to reduce the number of people who have royal titles and carry out engagements on behalf of the monarch
Well at the moment we have a lot of "titled" royals doing engagements.
I can understand Prince Charles wanting to cut down the people who have HRH's and titles but who is he going to get rid off?
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  #640  
Old 07-21-2010, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
Well at the moment we have a lot of "titled" royals doing engagements.
Exactly my point: If you have a title, you undertake engagements. Few titled royals do not carry out engagements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
I can understand Prince Charles wanting to cut down the people who have HRH's and titles but who is he going to get rid off?
IMO, once Charles is King, you will gradually see the Kents and Gloucesters reduce the number of engagements they carry out, and possibly the York girls be excluded as well.
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