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  #441  
Old 10-15-2008, 08:35 AM
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Yeah, since the grandsons are adults, they deserve titles. Maybe they won't get it before they get married though.
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  #442  
Old 10-15-2008, 09:12 AM
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I still think The Queen would create William and/or Harry earls for now. The point is to provide a style for their wives so they don't have to be known as Princess William or Henry. Dukedoms are usually granted only to sons of the Sovereigns and neither would be that yet.
I think the Queen is unlikley to create the boys as Earls as she is not going to want William and Harry, as more senior royals, to have lesser titles than Andrew and possibly, Edward (in the event of the DoE pre-deceasing the Queen and the Edinburgh title being bestowed on Edward). My view is that if the are given titles, they will be given dukedoms.
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  #443  
Old 10-15-2008, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by muriel View Post
I think the Queen is unlikley to create the boys as Earls as she is not going to want William and Harry, as more senior royals, to have lesser titles than Andrew and possibly, Edward (in the event of the DoE pre-deceasing the Queen and the Edinburgh title being bestowed on Edward).
If the DoE predeceases the queen the title is inherited by the eldest son, which is Charles. Once the queen dies and Charles becomes the souverain, the title merges with the Crown and can be recreated for Edward. But Edward will not inherit it from his father, it will be a new creation by king Charles.
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  #444  
Old 10-15-2008, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muriel View Post
I think the Queen is unlikley to create the boys as Earls as she is not going to want William and Harry, as more senior royals, to have lesser titles than Andrew and possibly, Edward (in the event of the DoE pre-deceasing the Queen and the Edinburgh title being bestowed on Edward). My view is that if the are given titles, they will be given dukedoms.

The only way for Edward to inherit the DOE title is for Charles, William, Harry and Andrew to predecease the Queen then Beatrice becomes Queen and Edward can inherit the DOE title directly.

Currently the line of succession for the DOE title is:

Charles
William
Harry
Andrew
Edward

because the title has the normal inheritance rule regarding male inheritance and not allowing female inheritance.
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  #445  
Old 10-16-2008, 03:40 AM
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At the time of Edwards marriage to Sophie when he was created Earl of Wessex, it was also announced that it was intended that Edward be created DoE after the death of his father. Both you and JoP are correct that the title would not automatically pass to Edward. If the Queen predeceases the DoE, the title would merge with the crown, and Charles as King, would probably create Edward as DoE subsequently. If on the other hand the Queen is still alive at the time of the death of Prince Philip, the title would automatically pass to Charles. At that stage, the Queen as monarch and font of all honours and titles would need to work through the specifics to then create Edward as DoE. I am not sure exactly what the process might entail, but I am sure sombody on the forums will have a good idea on how this might be effected.
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  #446  
Old 10-16-2008, 04:07 AM
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The announcement actually was that the intention was the Edward would become DOE after the death of both the Queen and the present Duke of Edinburgh - i.e. after the title has merged with the Crown through Charles becoming King - after he has either inherited it in the reign of his mother or as King.

Either way Charles has to become King and Philip die before Edward can become DOE.

BBC NEWS | Special Report | 1999 | 06/99 | royal wedding | Wessex titles for Edward and Sophie
Royal Insight > March 2004 > Focus > The Earl of Wessex at 40 This one says:
"Buckingham Palace also announced that the Earl would inherit the title 'Duke of Edinburgh' when that title reverts back to the throne." This will happen when Charles becomes King and his father is dead.

There are a number of other reports that make this perfectly clear - Edward will be created Duke of Edinburgh only after both his parents have died and the title has merged with the Crown.
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  #447  
Old 10-16-2008, 07:16 AM
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You are quite right, it is intended that Edward will be created DoE only after the death of both his parents and after the title has reverted back to the crown. Well done for remembering this, and better still for digging up the weblink - it amazes me how much one can pick up on the forums, so thank you once again.

That said, my earlier point remains. If created Earls, William and Harry will have lesser titles than Prince Andrew as Duke of York, even though they are closer to the throne. I am sure this is an avoidable inconsistency that BP would like to avoid.
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  #448  
Old 10-16-2008, 07:25 AM
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On the other hand making them Earls during the reign of the present monarch emphsises the fact that Andrew is the son of the monarch whereas William and Harry are only the grandsons.

I think that eventually they will both get Dukedoms in their own right but...
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  #449  
Old 10-16-2008, 07:41 AM
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i guess where I disagree is that the son of the prince of wales is a more senior royal than the duke of york. needless to say, it will be interesting to see which of us is eventually correct!
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  #450  
Old 10-16-2008, 08:14 AM
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i guess where I disagree is that the son of the prince of wales is a more senior royal than the duke of york. needless to say, it will be interesting to see which of us is eventually correct!

I saw this on internet under Royal Precedence in England and Wales.

Most members of the royal family have a place in the order of precedence. However, that place is not based on the order of succession to the throne. Thus, the duke of Edinburgh precedes his son the prince of Wales (except in Parliament), and the brothers of the prince of Wales precede his sons.

Which makes Muriel perfectly correct.
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  #451  
Old 10-16-2008, 08:37 AM
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The idea is quite simply: the souverain as the fount of all honours is at the centre. The closer a person is to this center, the higher he/she is in the order of precedence. The souverain at his/her pleasure can change this grade of closeness. Spouses share their husband/wife's place when said person is present.

Of course the husband of the queen is closer to her than her sons. And her sons are closer than her grandsons. But once Charles is king, his sons will be closer to him than his brothers, thus the order changes.
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  #452  
Old 10-16-2008, 03:57 PM
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i guess where I disagree is that the son of the prince of wales is a more senior royal than the duke of york. needless to say, it will be interesting to see which of us is eventually correct!

I am not disagreeing with you about their relative importance just suggesting a reason why they might get Earldoms rather than Dukedoms from the present monarch - namely that she wishes to emphasise her own sons over her grandsons.
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  #453  
Old 10-16-2008, 04:26 PM
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I believe the Queen has quite a few Dukedoms under her sleeve. One is the Duke of Clarence but they seem to be keeping clear of that one, as the last one to bear that name wasn´t exactly a model of virtue or anything else.
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  #454  
Old 10-16-2008, 05:05 PM
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Albert Victor, Duke of Clarence and Avondale, did not live to see his father Edward become king, so I guess there is a precedence that queen Victoria created at least this grandson a Royal Duke.
The precedent since Victoria's reign has been to grant dukedoms only to the sons of the Sovereign. William automatically becomes The Duke of Cornwall upon the death of The Queen and Charles can elevate Harry to a dukedom at that time.
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  #455  
Old 10-17-2008, 12:45 AM
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As Queen Victoria was the last monarch to have adult grandsons in the male line in her lifetime it is a bit of a stretch to make that claim.

She created both her grandsons, through the Prince of Wales, Dukes during her lifetime.

George V certainly created his sons Dukes but his eldest son didn't have any children so the potential for an adult son to be given a Dukedom didn't exist. His other sons didn't have adult children when George V died in 1936.

George VI was in the same boat as his only grandson was only 3 when George VI died.

So Elizabeth is in the same situation that Victoria was - she has adult grandsons in the male line in her lifetime.

What, if any title, she gives them will be up to her when she sees fit.
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  #456  
Old 10-17-2008, 08:18 AM
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I agree. However, one clue is granting Prince Edward an earldom, rather than a dukedom, upon his marriage to Sophie. On top of that, his children are being styled at the present time as children of an Earl, rather than the male-line grandchildren of the Sovereign as HRH Prince/Princess of the UK.

I think the new trend is to minimize the titles and honours to "downsize" the royal family. But, of course, William and Harry could very well be created Dukes by their grandmother upon marriage if she so chooses.
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  #457  
Old 10-17-2008, 01:34 PM
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I think William and Harry being made Dukes, if they marry during the Queen's lifetime, is a strong possibility. Yes, there has been a trend of downsizing the honours of the family, but it's kind of an inevitability that they will be senior members of the family at one point, and the Queen seemed to recognize that when she gave William the Garter.
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  #458  
Old 01-15-2009, 03:49 PM
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I just hope that (in case of engagement and wedding) the media doesn't proclaim her Princess Kate like they proclaimed his mother Princess Diana

(I really hate when the media refer to her as "Princess Diana")
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  #459  
Old 01-15-2009, 04:48 PM
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What would they call her Princess William of Wales??? would he get some other title upon marriage that she could be called something else ....this most likey has another thread some where right? No dumb questions....any one
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  #460  
Old 01-15-2009, 05:06 PM
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I'm 100% certain that she'll be dupped "Princess Kate" in the popular and media mind. I expect that she'll officially be Princess William of Wales until she's the Princess of Wales--if they marry, that is.

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I just hope that (in case of engagement and wedding) the media doesn't proclaim her Princess Kate like they proclaimed his mother Princess Diana

(I really hate when the media refer to her as "Princess Diana")
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