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  #301  
Old 04-03-2007, 09:04 AM
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An example of the situation to which you are referring is George V.

He was created Duke of York by his grandmother Queen Victoria. As soon as his father became king in January 1901 he also became Duke of Cornwall etc.

He was officially referred to throughout his tour of Australia that year to open our first ever Parliament as the Duke of Cornwall and York.

In November 1901 Edward VII created him Prince of Wales, but he was still the Duke of Cornwall (as Charles is today) and Duke of York.

Only when he became king did these titles merge with the crown - the Duke of Cornwall title immediately passed to his own eldest son, Edward VIII (whom he later created POW). These titles merged with the crown when Edward became king and, thus although he was still alive, were available to be inherited or created for the current holder of those titles, our own beloved Prince Charles. The Duke of York title remained in abeyance until George V used it for his own second son, the future George VI, who only relinquished that title on his own accession after his brother's abdication.
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  #302  
Old 04-04-2007, 02:46 AM
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So -- HM the Queen dies. Charles becomes King.
William is now automatically the Duke of Cornwell and any title that the oldest male heir would have (aside from those already dispursed like York and Wessex)?

If all of his uncles are living when William becomes King, their titles do not revert to the crown until they pass--unless William had already inherited them and they merged with the Crown upon his enthronement?

I'm trying to figure out when all the titles currently in the Windsor line get reverted--if that helps.
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  #303  
Old 04-04-2007, 03:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suonymona
So -- HM the Queen dies. Charles becomes King.
William is now automatically the Duke of Cornwell and any title that the oldest male heir would have (aside from those already dispursed like York and Wessex)?

If all of his uncles are living when William becomes King, their titles do not revert to the crown until they pass--unless William had already inherited them and they merged with the Crown upon his enthronement?

I'm trying to figure out when all the titles currently in the Windsor line get reverted--if that helps.
The titles currently held by Windsor men will revert to the crown as follows:

Duke of Edinburgh – when Philip dies IF the Queen has already died it will revert OR if Philip dies before the Queen dies as Charles will have inherited it on Philip’s death. There are scenarios out there whereby this title doesn't revert - Charles dies, William has a legitimate daughter, William dies, the Queen dies, Philip dies - in this case the Edinburgh title goes to Harry but William's daughter becomes Queen and therefore the Edinburgh title doesn't revert

Duke of Cornwall – when the Queen dies when it will immediately pass to William – if the Queen outlives Charles it will immediately revert to the crown and wait until William becomes king and has a son (William can’t have the DOC title during his grandmother’s reign as it is only for the eldest son and heir of the monarch)

Prince of Wales – will revert when Charles becomes king and then is for him to recreate at a time of his choosing .e.g his mother waited six years

Duke of York – on death of Prince Andrew – unless he remarries and has a son – only a son can inherit

Earl of Wessex – on death of Prince Edward – unless he and Sophie have a son as again only a son can inherit

Earl Snowdon – will pass to Princess Margaret’s son and then to Linley’s son – after that it will depend on whether or not that son has sons or whether Linley has a second son who could inherit

Duke of Gloucester – will pass to current holder’s son and his wife is pregnant at the moment so if it is a son then he will in time inherit – this title won’t revert until there is no male to inherit

Duke of Kent – will pass to current holder’s son and down through his male descendents – if they run out it will revert to the current holder’s second son and down through his male descendents and if that line runs out then Prince Michael of Kent’s line through his son Lord Frederick will carry it on

NB that these titles don’t pass to females – that is because in each case the Letters Patent creating the title specified ‘heirs male of the body’ not just ‘heirs of the body’. In addition the Gloucester and Kent titles will continue as long as there are male heirs to inherit but the next holder of those titles won't have the HRH to go with the title.

Basically a title reverts to the crown when there is no male in the direct line from the original holder to inherit that title. There have been one or two exceptions to the male inheritance part e.g. Mountbatten, but that usually happens when the title holder is granted the title at a slightly advanced age with only daughters and little or no chance of having a son (which was the situation for Mountbatten).
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  #304  
Old 04-04-2007, 11:29 AM
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Is there a distinction being made here between titles "reverting to the Crown" and "merging with the Crown"?

I believe there is a difference between titles which merge with the Crown and those which simply become extinct because there are no heirs. In order to rmerge with the Crown a title needs to be one that would have been held by the monarch had he/she not been monarch.

However, I'm not sure if "reverting" is or is not something else altogether. Can anyone enlighten me about this? Do all titles "revert" in some way when they become extinct? Does it simply mean that the title is then available for re-creation by the Crown?
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  #305  
Old 04-04-2007, 05:18 PM
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Mergiing with the crown is when a title is held by someone who then becomes king e.g. the title Duke of York merged with the crown in 1910 and again in 1936 when the respective holders became Kings George V and George VI.

Had George VI not become king and had he died in 1952 anyway his title would have reverted to the crown and become extinct as neither of his daughters could have inherited that title, but his wife would still have used the title Duchess of York.

Reverting to the crown is when a title ceases to exist and is available for regrant. e.g. if the present Duke of York and/or Earl of Wessex die without having any sons then those titles will revert to the crown and be available for regrant.
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  #306  
Old 04-04-2007, 07:01 PM
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Thanks for explaining chrissy57!
I have to admit I never quite understood the difference between the two terms.
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  #307  
Old 04-07-2007, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrissy57
The titles currently held by Windsor men will revert to the crown as follows:

Duke of Edinburgh – when Philip dies IF the Queen has already died it will revert OR if Philip dies before the Queen dies as Charles will have inherited it on Philip’s death.
Thanks for your answer about the difference between merging and reverting. It was along the lines of my understanding, too.

The above example, then, wouldn't be reverting; it would be merging.
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  #308  
Old 04-07-2007, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by selrahc4
Thanks for your answer about the difference between merging and reverting. It was along the lines of my understanding, too.

The above example, then, wouldn't be reverting; it would be merging.

Correct.

This title will merge with the crown in all likelihood rather than revert - it could only revert if there were no male heirs - e.g. if Edward inherited the title in his own right directly e.g. Charles, William, Harry and Andrew ALL predecease Philip. In this case, Edward would inherit directly from Philip but on his death then the title would revert.

As things currently stand the Edinburgh title will probably merge with the crown at some time in the future, the York and Wessex titles will revert to the crown and the Gloucester, Kent and Snowdon titles will pass on for two or so generations at least (but without any HRH).
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  #309  
Old 04-08-2007, 02:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrissy57
Duke of Cornwall – when the Queen dies when it will immediately pass to William – if the Queen outlives Charles it will immediately revert to the crown and wait until William becomes king and has a son (William can’t have the DOC title during his grandmother’s reign as it is only for the eldest son and heir of the monarch)
The last time a Prince of Wales predeceased his reigning parent was Frederick, the father of George III. I am certain that upon his death his son, the future George III, became Duke of Cornwall - inheriting the title directly from his father.
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  #310  
Old 04-09-2007, 02:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wymanda
The last time a Prince of Wales predeceased his reigning parent was Frederick, the father of George III. I am certain that upon his death his son, the future George III, became Duke of Cornwall - inheriting the title directly from his father.

He never became Duke of Cornwall but was created Prince of Wales by his grandfather.

If you check out this website Duke of Cornwall - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia you will find a list of all the holders of the DOC title and notice that George III is missing from that list.
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  #311  
Old 04-10-2007, 02:16 AM
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Great information chrissy. I didn't think I was the only ones with such questions.
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  #312  
Old 04-10-2007, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrissy57
He never became Duke of Cornwall but was created Prince of Wales by his grandfather.

If you check out this website Duke of Cornwall - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia you will find a list of all the holders of the DOC title and notice that George III is missing from that list.
Thanks for the clarification. As they say "you learn something new every day"
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  #313  
Old 04-10-2007, 03:49 PM
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What happens if the Queen does not approve of a marriage?

If Harry marries Chelsy, and the Queen does not give consent, would Chelsy still get a title? (HRH Princess Henry of Wales)
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  #314  
Old 04-10-2007, 05:54 PM
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Without the Queen's consent, or the consent of both houses of Parliament, the marriage isn't legal so legally she wouldn't be entitled to the HRH Princess Henry of Wales.

That is the reason why so many people actually seek the Queen's consent. Without that consent (or Parliaments) the marriage has no legal standing under the RMA.

Harry could renounce his claim to the throne and then marry without the consent but he can't legally marry and remain in the line of succession without the necessary consent.
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  #315  
Old 04-10-2007, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yvr girl
If Harry marries Chelsy, and the Queen does not give consent, would Chelsy still get a title? (HRH Princess Henry of Wales)
Under the Royal Marriages Act, Harry could marry Chelsy without the permission of The Sovereign provided he was 25 years old, declared his intention to the Privy Council and waited one year. After that, he would be free to marry.

If Harry married against the advice of The Prime Minister, he would lose his right to the succession via a bill passed by Parliament and likely be stripped of his royal title and style afterwards by The Queen.

At that point, his wife would be styled Lady Chelsy Windsor or whatever peerage might be granted as compensation (i.e. Countess of Sussex). She most certainly would not be a Royal Highness.

I doubt Harry would marry her if The Queen or his father refused to grant approval, but you never know.
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  #316  
Old 04-10-2007, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
Under the Royal Marriages Act, Harry could marry Chelsy without the permission of The Sovereign provided he was 25 years old, declared his intention to the Privy Council and waited one year. After that, he would be free to marry.
My understanding is that he actually needs the permission of both houses of Parliament not just the Privy Council.



Quote:
If Harry married against the advice of The Prime Minister, he would lose his right to the succession via a bill passed by Parliament and likely be stripped of his royal title and style afterwards by The Queen.

Is this stated in the RMA or is this people's interpretation based on what happened in 1936?

I know that the marriage wouldn't be legal but would he actually be stripped of his titles and rights if he did this? If so could you point me to the legislation whereby that would happen?



Quote:
At that point, his wife would be styled Lady Chelsy Windsor or whatever peerage might be granted as compensation (i.e. Countess of Sussex). She most certainly would not be a Royal Highness.

She wouldn't be a royal highness because the marriage wouldn't be legal under the RMA, unless permission is granted not because of any other reason surely. As the marriage isn't legal she wouldn't be his legal wife and therefore wouldn't be entitled to any female form of any of his titles - regardless of his status.


Quote:
I doubt Harry would marry her if The Queen or his father refused to grant approval, but you never know.
I too agree 100% with this statement.

We are simply discussing the hypothetical and not a probably situation that is likely to arise.
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  #317  
Old 04-11-2007, 12:08 AM
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The Act states Harry is free to marry unless Parliament passes a Bill specifically opposing the marriage. It does not require both houses to approve his marriage, which would be unconstitutional in any case. Like any British subject, Harry can marry whomever he wishes. However, as a member of the royal family and third-in-line to the throne, his status rests with The Sovereign and the Government.

Legally, as a male-line grandson of The Sovereign, he is entitled under the 1917 Letters Patent of George V to the style and title of HRH Prince of the UK. But, The Queen could certainly issue letters patent at any time depriving him of the attributes if she chooses to do so. If she did not, then his wife is automatically a Royal Highness and Princess of the UK under common law.
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  #318  
Old 04-11-2007, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
The Act states Harry is free to marry unless Parliament passes a Bill specifically opposing the marriage. It does not require both houses to approve his marriage, which would be unconstitutional in any case.
[

I had misunderstand who had to approve the marriage if the monarch didn't. It is the Privy Council unless both Houses of Parliament, within a year pass legislation against the marriage, according to the Act.

Quote:
Like any British subject, Harry can marry whomever he wishes.
Actually, according to the RMA he can't - without the consent of the monarch or the Privy Council the act clearly says that any such marriage is 'null and void' meaning that it is not a recognised marriage in law. That is the whole point of the RMA - to control who the royal family can marry.

Quote:
However, as a member of the royal family and the spare to the throne, his status rests with The Sovereign and the Government.
I don't understand what you mean here.

The monarch or Privy Council must approve the marriage - without that approval there is no legal marriage according to the RMA.

Please explain this comment.


Quote:
Legally, as a male-line grandson of The Sovereign, he is entitled under the 1917 Letters Patent of George V to the style and title of HRH Prince of the UK. But, The Queen could certainly issue letters patent at any time depriving him of the attributes if she chooses to do so. If she did not, then his wife is automatically a Royal Highness and Princess of the UK under common law.
However, unless he had the consent mentioned above - either of the monarch or the Privy Council there is no legal marriage in which case the wife would not be entitled to any title as she wouldn't legally be his wife. That is the terms of the RMA - The Royal Marriage Act, 1772

specifically this section:

'and that every marriage, or matrimonial contract, of any such descendant, without such consent first had and obtained, shall be null and void, to all intents and purposes whatsoever.'

In other words - no consent no legal marriage and therefore no title for Chelsy of any kind.
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  #319  
Old 04-11-2007, 02:44 AM
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I've just read the RMA. It seems to me that the Privy Council does not have to give approval; it merely has to receive the notice of the intention of the person who wishes to marry. It is both Houses of Parliament that have to do something if they disapprove.

I'd like to know what people think would be the position if one of the Royals who was not given consent married in another country; e.g. if Harry married Chelsy in South Africa.

He would have to provide a certificate stating there is no lawful impediment to him marrying, but what would the applicable law be? I think it would be SA law, which is easy to find with a quick Google. South Africa: Getting Married in South Africa If the UK law preventing him from marrying without consent does not apply in South Africa, and I suspect it would not, the only factors which would stop him marrying would be lack of contractual capacity (i.e. mental incapacity as he is not a minor), existing marriage, or prohibited relationship, none of which applies. He could therefore marry in SA now, if he were so inclined.
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  #320  
Old 04-11-2007, 04:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roslyn
I've just read the RMA. It seems to me that the Privy Council does not have to give approval; it merely has to receive the notice of the intention of the person who wishes to marry. It is both Houses of Parliament that have to do something if they disapprove.

I'd like to know what people think would be the position if one of the Royals who was not given consent married in another country; e.g. if Harry married Chelsy in South Africa.

He would have to provide a certificate stating there is no lawful impediment to him marrying, but what would the applicable law be? I think it would be SA law, which is easy to find with a quick Google. South Africa: Getting Married in South Africa If the UK law preventing him from marrying without consent does not apply in South Africa, and I suspect it would not, the only factors which would stop him marrying would be lack of contractual capacity (i.e. mental incapacity as he is not a minor), existing marriage, or prohibited relationship, none of which applies. He could therefore marry in SA now, if he were so inclined.

But that marriage would not be recognised in Britain as he hasn't followed the RMA, which is a legal impediment to him marrying. Without the Queen's consent the marriage has no impact in Britain and Chelsy still wouldn't be able to be recognised as HRH Princess Henry nor would their children be able to claim the throne as the marriage is not legal for Harry.
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