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  #181  
Old 09-04-2006, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Tim Yates
No, Edward is supposed to inherit the Dukedom of Edinburgh after his father, Prince Philip's crossing over. Sophie will become the Duchess of Edinburgh for your information.
I know this has been covered over and over and over, but just one more time:

Edward is not supposed to "inherit" the current Dukedom of Edinburgh.
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  #182  
Old 09-04-2006, 12:55 PM
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Edinburgh depends totally on Charles' wishes

The Dukedom of Edinburgh, the Earldom of Merioneth and the Barony of Greenwich will be inherited by:

1 - The Prince Charles, Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay
2 - Prince William of Wales
3 - Prince Henry of Wales
4 - The Prince Andrew, Duke of York
5 - The Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex

But when Charles is King when his father dies, his father's peerages will merge with the Crown and it is upon Charles to create a new Duke of Edinburgh or not, for an example on his brother Prince Edward.

What will happen with Edinburgh is totally to King Charles' own pleasure. It is possible he will have made a gentleman's agreement with his parents and his youngest brother. But still then Edward is 'only' fifth for the Edinburgh title.
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  #183  
Old 09-04-2006, 12:59 PM
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Henri M - usually yes. That would be the way of things. But it won't happen in this case because the Queen wants Edward to be Duke of Edinburgh so when Philip dies, his title will go back to the Crown and then Edward will be made Duke of Edinburgh, whether his mother is still on the throne or whether Charles is on the throne.
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  #184  
Old 09-04-2006, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Henri M - usually yes. That would be the way of things. But it won't happen in this case because the Queen wants Edward to be Duke of Edinburgh so when Philip dies, his title will go back to the Crown and then Edward will be made Duke of Edinburgh, whether his mother is still on the throne or whether Charles is on the throne.
According to my best knowledge also the present Dukedom of Edinburgh passes to the heirs-male of the first Duke. So, his eldest son will always inherit the title.

- If the current Duke of Edinburgh predeceases the Queen, then the Prince of Wales will become Duke of Edinburgh, and when the Queen dies, the title will merge with the crown, becoming available for the Earl.

- If the Queen predeceased the Duke of Edinburgh, when the Duke of Edinburgh dies, the Dukedom will merge with the crown, becoming available for the Earl.

But both cases require an action by His Majesty King Charles III.
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  #185  
Old 09-04-2006, 01:15 PM
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Look, I'm not doing this on two fronts. Charles won't inherit the title and thats that.
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  #186  
Old 09-04-2006, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
According to my best knowledge also the present Dukedom of Edinburgh passes to the heirs-male of the first Duke. So, his eldest son will always inherit the title.

- If the current Duke of Edinburgh predeceases the Queen, then the Prince of Wales will become Duke of Edinburgh, and when the Queen dies, the title will merge with the crown, becoming available for the Earl.

- If the Queen predeceased the Duke of Edinburgh, when the Duke of Edinburgh dies, the Dukedom will merge with the crown, becoming available for the Earl.

But both cases require an action by His Majesty King Charles III.


I've read this same information as well.
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  #187  
Old 09-04-2006, 01:31 PM
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Right, ignore me, because obviously, being British, I have no idea how these things work and haven't got a clue how my Royal Family have decided to do things. I do apologise for being a total dunce and wasting your time.
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  #188  
Old 09-04-2006, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Right, ignore me, because obviously, being British, I have no idea how these things work and haven't got a clue how my Royal Family have decided to do things. I do apologise for being a total dunce and wasting your time.

I don't think anyone is calling you a dunce, and if that's what you're reading.....you're inferring wrong. All my post was doing was saying that I had read that same information as well. Not saying that person was right, wrong or otherwise....just that I had read that information as well. I don't know where they got theirs from; it's possible we both got it from the same source.

So relax. No one is questioning your intelligence.
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  #189  
Old 09-04-2006, 02:02 PM
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I just find it slightly irritating that some people, not you, are inferring that I wouldn't know these things and those people don't even live in Britain. I live here, I read everything I can find - the good and the bad. Then you get people who don't live here and seem to think they know the British establishment better than the British. Now not all Brits now all they should know about the Monarchy, but I do. I make a point of knowing. I just don't like people trying to tell me I know nothing when I actually see these things almost every day.
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  #190  
Old 09-04-2006, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
I just find it slightly irritating that some people, not you, are inferring that I wouldn't know these things and those people don't even live in Britain. I live here, I read everything I can find - the good and the bad. Then you get people who don't live here and seem to think they know the British establishment better than the British. Now not all Brits now all they should know about the Monarchy, but I do. I make a point of knowing. I just don't like people trying to tell me I know nothing when I actually see these things almost every day.
From what I can tell, all that Henri M was doing was posting what they thought/had previously read. Obviously no one will know with 100% certainty what will occur until something is either made public or when it actually happens. Until then it's just speculation, that's all.

You may end up right and then you come back here and have a big laugh.
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  #191  
Old 09-04-2006, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Right, ignore me, because obviously, being British, I have no idea how these things work and haven't got a clue how my Royal Family have decided to do things. I do apologise for being a total dunce and wasting your time.
I'm not saying you are a dunce or whatever. We simply have a normal and healthy disagreement on Prince Philip's peerages.

The Letters Patent issued Friday, November 21st, 1947 says that unto Lieutenant H.R.H. Sir Philip Mountbatten K.G., R.N. and the heirs male of his body lawfully is begotten the dignities of Baron Greenwich in the County of London, Earl of Merioneth and Duke of Edinburgh.

Since the Letters Patent issued in 1947 specify the standard remainder of heirs male of his body lawfully begotten it is anticipated that the title of Duke of Edinburgh will eventually pass into the hands of The Prince of Wales and merge with the Crown when he thereafter succeeds to the throne if he isn't already The King at that particular time.

Prince Philip dies when The Queen is alive:
The Prince Charles will inherit his father's peerages and become Duke of Edinburgh

Prince Philip dies when his son is The King:
The King will inherit his father's peerages and these will merge with the Crown

Prince Charles assumes the Kingship when his father already has died before:
The Prince Charles ceases to be Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Duke of Edinburgh
Prince of Wales becomes vacant
Duke of Cornwall automatically goes to Prince William
Duke of Rothesay automatically goes to Prince William
Duke of Edinburgh merges with the Crown
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  #192  
Old 09-04-2006, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
I just find it slightly irritating that some people, not you, are inferring that I wouldn't know these things and those people don't even live in Britain. I live here, I read everything I can find - the good and the bad. Then you get people who don't live here and seem to think they know the British establishment better than the British. Now not all Brits now all they should know about the Monarchy, but I do. I make a point of knowing. I just don't like people trying to tell me I know nothing when I actually see these things almost every day.
Can you clear something up for me then?

The current Dukedom of Edinburgh is hereditary per the Letters Patent specifying the standard remainder of "heirs male of his body lawfully begotten".

I've read that the title can only pass according to the remainder defined in the Letters Patent of creation, unless modified by an Act of Parliament.

Is it true or false that Letters Patent can be altered only by Parliament?
If true, has an act been passed regarding the current Duke of Edinburgh title?
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  #193  
Old 09-04-2006, 02:32 PM
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I don't have the text of the Letters Patent, I don't know it's going to work. But in 2002 when this was announced, Dickie Arbiter appeared on the BBC and spoke about the transferring of the title. He said that when the Duke of Edinburgh died, his title would not be inherited by Charles as was intended, but instead, it would revert back to the Crown and then the Queen would create Edward the new Duke of Edinburgh. Now, I don't know the legality of it, I don't know how the Letters Patent have been altered if they have been altered at all but this is what Dickie Arbiter said and Buckingham Palace seemed to agree with it. If it doesn't happen that way, then it doesn't happen that way. As far as I know, Parliament doesn't have to be consulted on Letters Patent but they usually are. Technically, the Queen could just pass an LP making anyone a Duke or a Prince Consort or whatever. It's complicated and we can only go on what's been said publicly. But the short of it is that Charles won't be Duke of Edinburgh.
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  #194  
Old 09-04-2006, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
I don't have the text of the Letters Patent, I don't know it's going to work. But in 2002 when this was announced, Dickie Arbiter appeared on the BBC and spoke about the transferring of the title. He said that when the Duke of Edinburgh died, his title would not be inherited by Charles as was intended, but instead, it would revert back to the Crown and then the Queen would create Edward the new Duke of Edinburgh. Now, I don't know the legality of it, I don't know how the Letters Patent have been altered if they have been altered at all but this is what Dickie Arbiter said and Buckingham Palace seemed to agree with it. If it doesn't happen that way, then it doesn't happen that way. As far as I know, Parliament doesn't have to be consulted on Letters Patent but they usually are. Technically, the Queen could just pass an LP making anyone a Duke or a Prince Consort or whatever. It's complicated and we can only go on what's been said publicly. But the short of it is that Charles won't be Duke of Edinburgh.
Sometimes we get into a rush and it becomes yes-no-yes-no...

But let us simply hope that the Duke of Edinburgh will be given a few more years in good health and of course I would like it to see the Earl of Wessex to become Duke of Edinburgh. Why not? Prince Charles already is one of the most titled Peers of the Realm, he can miss that title anyway.

But I think the Letters Patent describe the way how it will be handled: Charles is the link. The final outcome most likely will be the same: the Earl of Wessex will become Duke of Edinburgh.

The only thing which would prevent this is the hypothetical case that Charles and William both predecease The Queen and William has a daughter. That daughter will become Duchess of Edinburgh in her own right, if I'm correct, and Prince Harry will become the Heir.
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  #195  
Old 09-04-2006, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Henri M.
The only thing which would prevent this is the hypothetical case that Charles and William both predecease The Queen and William has a daughter. That daughter will become Duchess of Edinburgh in her own right, if I'm correct
Henri, she would not qualify under the "heirs male" remainder. Harry would qualify as heir, though, and would get the title.
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  #196  
Old 09-05-2006, 08:25 AM
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Letters Patent can be modified with new letters patent at any time. The Sovereign must take advice from the Prime Minister for certain matters of state, but issues like inheritance of titles are within their gift as fount of honour.

For example, Lord Mountbatten requested his title as Earl Mountbatten of Burma pass to his eldest daughter, Patricia, since he had no sons. A special remainder was issued via Royal Warrant and the earldom passed to her when Lord Mountbatten was killed.
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  #197  
Old 09-05-2006, 08:31 AM
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Beatrix, you're wrong on the Dukedom passing directly to Edward on the death of his father. It will pass through male remainder like any other peerage and be recreated again for Edward when it merges with the Crown (when Charles becomes King, or if he doesn't survive his father or mother, when William becomes King).

The only way for it to pass directly to Edward if Charles is not yet King would be for Charles to formally renounce the dukedom (which needs legislation by Parliament) and then The Queen could recreate it.
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  #198  
Old 09-05-2006, 03:29 PM
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Will Edward get Baron Greenwich and Earl of Merionneth too and will he get to keep Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn
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  #199  
Old 09-05-2006, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Royal Fan
Will Edward get Baron Greenwich and Earl of Merionneth too and will he get to keep Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn
It would depend on whether or not the Letters Patent creating the new Edinburgh dukedom also created a new ealrdom of Merioneith and a new barony of Greenwich.

I doubt if there would be anything done to rescind his current titles. Most likely would be just a creation of a new Edinburgh dukedom, but that's just my guess.
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  #200  
Old 09-05-2006, 05:05 PM
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Will Edward get Baron Greenwich and Earl of Merionneth too and will he get to keep Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn
I doubt it. More likely, he will receive a new creation of the dukedom along with his current titles in the peerage of the UK ("1st Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn").
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