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  #141  
Old 11-14-2006, 04:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laviollette
She seemed smart and down-to-earth, not a lazy aristocratic slouch who doesn't work but attends parties and polo matches, and generally has nothing going for them, like a career, in their lives.
I believe it would help if the memebers of this forum would cease to think in categories or "character types" and be aware that we are talking about real living and breathing people.

Take for example that "lazy aristocratic slouch"-character type. I guess people should relize where this "type" came from: as the arrogant artistocratic person not deserving their place in life it's already featured in greek comedies and is in it's female/male variations one of the characters of the commedia dell'arte. So basically it's a caricature of the real existing aristocrat which for several reasons (including the wish for addressing political aims, envy, social unhappiness etc.) was changed for the negative and used against the aristocracy. While this character type is still widely used in romance novels as opponent of the "true heroine", it's more a myth than a real "type". One simple reasons: real aristocratic ladies can't afford to be lazy if their wealth and position is based on the land they own - taking care of larger holdings and presering it for the next generation is tough work which needs constant attention. It's the nouveau riches whose money comes from investments or the stock market who can afford such a lifestyle.

But even then we talk people and not types - there are all kinds of people who work or don't work (with a defination of "work" as payed activity), who appear lazy because they are thinking (poets, authors and inventors come to mind), people who seem to slouch around because they are not healthy enough to work out and thus not allowed to.... all kinds of people.

We simply don't know what Catherine does and so cannot pass judgment on her person, only on the "type" she might present to the public at present. Which is something I for one am not willing to do.
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  #142  
Old 11-14-2006, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palantine
taking care of larger holdings and preserving it for the next generation is tough work which needs constant attention .....
Most people don't see that as work, they tend to presume that it is all done by staff! A lot of it is, but that would be suggesting that a CEO has nothing to do with the running of a company.

Quote:
We simply don't know what Catherine does and so cannot pass judgment on her person, only on the "type" she might present to the public at present.
Well said.

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Originally Posted by Luv2Cruise
Ladies, Kate hate trolls. Just like teeth, ignore them and they'll go away.
I will try to take your advice but, I fear I am doomed to failure!
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  #143  
Old 11-14-2006, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon
Most people don't see that as work, they tend to presume that it is all done by staff! A lot of it is, but that would be suggesting that a CEO has nothing to do with the running of a company.
I will never forget the moment when my grandmother (who was in pre-war German Silesia a daughter of a good family) told me about the duties she was expected to fulfill once she married and moved to her husband's village. Her whole pre-adult life seemed to have centered around being taught how to manage the estate and village in all kinds of aspects. It started with food preservation advices (which reminded me of survival techniques) to medical help (everything one could need in case a doctor was not available) to psychological stuff (in order to avoid psychologically based riots of the people) to basic knowledge of laws etc, of course economizing, entertaining etc....

I (as a girl of the sixties/seventies) was stunned when she told me that (even after having heard from my grandmother of my father's side how life was in Imperial Austria if you were of a family of "serving" nobility). It took me years to understand that this kind of training to fulfill responsibilities is something that can't be taken away from you, even if (as it happened with my family) the estate and wealth is gone. I guess the fact that both my grandmothers (both grandfathers were officers and away as prisoners of war, leaving their wifes to deal with the situation of flight etc.) managed to settle their respective families into the "Bildungsbürgertum" (German word for the Bourgeoisie based on education, not money) after WWII is due to their training they received as "Höhere Töchter" - German word for the daughters of the "better" ranks who got a good education.

That said, I believe it is grossly unfair to judge people because of their position when you have no idea how life in that position is really like. I for one am glad that two wars took care that I could go into academic education without the feeling I was letting people down because of that, that I could grow up being proud of my roots but free to do as I please.
I do hope that Catherine feels the same way and is doing something worth-while in her time, even if I am not privy to know it.
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  #144  
Old 11-14-2006, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine
I will never forget the moment when my grandmother (who was in pre-war German Silesia a daughter of a good family) told me about the duties she was expected to fulfill once she married and moved to her husband's village. Her whole pre-adult life seemed to have centered around being taught how to manage the estate and village in all kinds of aspects. It started with food preservation advices (which reminded me of survival techniques) to medical help (everything one could need in case a doctor was not available) to psychological stuff (in order to avoid psychologically based riots of the people) to basic knowledge of laws etc, of course economizing, entertaining etc....

I (as a girl of the sixties/seventies) was stunned when she told me that (even after having heard from my grandmother of my father's side how life was in Imperial Austria if you were of a family of "serving" nobility). It took me years to understand that this kind of training to fulfill responsibilities is something that can't be taken away from you, even if (as it happened with my family) the estate and wealth is gone. I guess the fact that both my grandmothers (both grandfathers were officers and away as prisoners of war, leaving their wifes to deal with the situation of flight etc.) managed to settle their respective families into the "Bildungsbürgertum" (German word for the Bourgeoisie based on education, not money) after WWII is due to their training they received as "Höhere Töchter" - German word for the daughters of the "better" ranks who got a good education.

That said, I believe it is grossly unfair to judge people because of their position when you have no idea how life in that position is really like. I for one am glad that two wars took care that I could go into academic education without the feeling I was letting people down because of that, that I could grow up being proud of my roots but free to do as I please.
I do hope that Catherine feels the same way and is doing something worth-while in her time, even if I am not privy to know it.
Well said!
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  #145  
Old 11-14-2006, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine
That said, I believe it is grossly unfair to judge people because of their position when you have no idea how life in that position is really like. I for one am glad that two wars took care that I could go into academic education without the feeling I was letting people down because of that, that I could grow up being proud of my roots but free to do as I please.
I do hope that Catherine feels the same way and is doing something worth-while in her time, even if I am not privy to know it.
What a wonderful story! I wish the same freedoms were available to all in the UK, in the past and present time.

It never ceases to amaze me, how judgemental some people can be, of a situation they know nothing about!

I hope Catherine is happy, whatever she is doing!
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  #146  
Old 11-14-2006, 01:35 PM
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I love it how everyone is starting to call her Catherine! HMMMMM!

I am in total agreement with Jo and Skydragon! It always amazes me that people are quick to judge the rich or well off...its like reverse snobbery. The rich have problems just like everyone else...they are just better dressed :) Well most of them anyway.

That being said...I doubt that both Kate and Chesly will be invited to spend Christmas with the Queen. Now, I don't doubt that they might be on the estate....but they won't be breaking bread with her at the Christmas Eve or Boxing Day dinner.
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  #147  
Old 11-14-2006, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caroline mathilda
I think that Kate Middleton and Prince William have either been secretly engaged or "have an understanding."
i'm with you on this one caroline mathilda.

i wonder why whenever we see a picture of Catherine we assume that she's shopping. i'm sure some of her time is spent shopping just like lots of people do but we don't very often see her carrying any bags so just because the pics show her walking down the street outside some shops doesn't mean she's actually shopping and spendig money does it? i walk downtown outside the shops quite often but i hardly every shop.

also, i disagree with the statement "she's useless" just because she doesn't have a job. while everyone is entitled to their opinion i have to agree with Skydragon in that just because someone is employed it doesn't mean they're down to earth or diplomatic. and if she's fortunate enough not to have to work then i also agree with Skydragon that it leaves a position available for someone that really needs it.
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  #148  
Old 11-15-2006, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon
She seemed smart and down-to-earth, not a lazy aristocratic slouch who doesn't work but attends parties and polo matches, and generally has nothing going for them, like a career, in their lives.

What you are saying, is that anyone who is lucky enough not to have to work, is a lazy slouch and has nothing going for them.
It seems a very sweeping statement and very judgemental of a situation you are not privy to.

You seem to be stating that you or anyone who has visible employment, is smart, down to earth and not a slouch, when it is clear IMO, that some people who have a job are neither smart or diplomatic.

Why should Catherine let anyone know whether she is in paid employment and if she is not, why is that a reason to rip her apart?

If she hasn't got a job and doesn't need to work to have spending money, good luck to her, it will leave a job available to someone who has no option but to work for their living!
Bravo Skydragon! I haven't been on the forum for a while because I've been so busy with work, but the last couple of pages that I've read on this thread tell me that some things haven't changed!

I feel that you and Jo have stated some serious truths.
I'm an employed person who is neither particularly smart OR particularly diplomatic, and I say who are we to judge another person and say that they are lazy or any other negative adjectives?
As humans, we are more than the sum of our employment! (Forgive my paraphrasing)

In all seriousness, some of the statements I've read posted on this forum and on different online tabloids regarding Catherine amaze me.
I've seen rude or harsh and judgmental statements about her needing to get a job, or being lazy, or just criticising her for attending polo matches, etc. as if she were obligated to behave according to someone else's dictates.

I do believe that a lot of complaints of this nature are based on several different things, the main one being smug narrow-mindedness.
They're basically saying : the only people that are worth something in this world are the people that live the way I live, or that live the way I think they should live.

We aren't living her life, we don't know what goes on behind Catherine's or anyone's closed doors. She's living the life that feels right for her, and if she is financially able to afford to live as she pleases, so be it. Why should a person be ostracized because they're able to live as they choose?
I think one of the other elements is plain old-fashioned jealousy. A sort of "If I can't do it then you shouldn't be able to do it either" type of jealousy.

Well, there will always be those who are more fortunate than the rest of us. There is no point in condemning someone because their finances allow them to live a life that we can't.
And as for those who say that in that case her degree was a waste of time:

How so? She isn't your daughter/sister/niece etc, and it wasn't your expenses. If she and her parents are happy, then it should not matter to anyone else how she uses or doesn't use her degree.
A person should be considered on the basis of how kindly and compassionately they treat their fellow man, and whether or not they are an honourable, decent person.
Not much else really matters.
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  #149  
Old 11-15-2006, 07:58 PM
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well said Tanya. :)
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  #150  
Old 11-15-2006, 08:52 PM
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Well said but it isn't true IMO. Whether Kate has money or not has nothing whatsoever to do with the price of fish, it's the image she puts out that turns people off. All we see is this sulky girl, skulking around Polo matches and shopping. Now that's fine but it seems that we're being told to accept this girl as a future Queen. Well, the image she puts out is not the image of a future Queen and so she gets criticised. It's nothing to do with jealousy, it's more a feeling of "Is this it?". Of all the girls William could choose, he's chosen one who doesn't come across well. She's got the rocks, she's got the cash but she comes across as a bit of a skulky teenager, a goth without the make-up and bad dress sense. It's all very boring to see her miserable face plastered all over the newspapers and what can we say she actually does? William's girlfriend can never be a private person - the moment he's seen with her, she becomes public property and I'm not saying thats right, but it's fact. She becomes public property and she has to justify certain things. She doesn't seem to have a job - so is she signing on? She's always got the same dull expression and floppy posture - is she depressed? We hear stories of her being moved into Clarence House at weekends - is that costing us money? The sooner Buckingham Palace confirm that this is or isn't happening, these questions can be answered and people will be alot happier.
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  #151  
Old 11-16-2006, 12:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laviollette
It's interesting that despite Kate being utterly devoted to William and putting her own life on hold, that they've now had two cooling-off periods in their no more than 3-year relationship (in 2004 and now in 2006). Arabella M. moved on from PW and the PR girl is doing something with her life. She wasn't going to put up with any disrespect due to his roving eye. Anna Sloane of Tennessee declined his offer to date after he became smitten with her during the 2004 cooling-off period with Kate; W&K got back together. Isabella Anstruther-etc. also doesn't return the apparent interest he has in her. She's denied knowing him even though gossip mags say yes, they have met. She's graduated from Edinburgh University and isn't pining for Wills.

So who's left? Kate. Waiting, waiting for a ring, not building a life of her own outside of her bf's life and his interests. And now word of this 2nd cooling-off period. It makes me wonder what Kate is going to do if her relationship with William doesn't work out? What if he dumps her? I think she'll be devastated having put all this effort into this one person and staked her future on him and her expectations don't pan out. If that happens I'll bet it will be spun that Kate dumped Wills but that won't change her hurt feelings after she's become dependent on her bf at the expense of building her own life and career.
Excellent post! And Beatrixfan i agree with you too. Forget about jealousy, if the press were so quick to point out that she was "planning" to develop her "own" business then they surely would be reporting if she was doing anything at the moment.
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  #152  
Old 11-16-2006, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabby_windsor
Forget about jealousy, if the press were so quick to point out that she was "planning" to develop her "own" business then they surely would be reporting if she was doing anything at the moment.
Yes the press ended up with egg on their faces, once again. Where are the reports from Catherine or anyone connected with her, stating that she had any intention of starting a business?

Come to that, how do any of us know that she isn't running a successful business? You don't have to register with anyone to start or run a business, after all, would any of us realise that Flipsy Bunny (invented name) is owned and run by Catherine? Registration for VAT is voluntary unless the company earns a large amount (£250,000?).
Corporate Tax details are not available to the public and unless she 'floats' the company on the SE, details of the company's owners would be almost impossible to find, especially if you don't know the name of the company to start with!

PAYE details are not available to the public and if any member of staff felt like 'looking her up' on the system, they would find nothing, whilst the system alerts the police and office managers.
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  #153  
Old 11-16-2006, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon
Yes the press ended up with egg on their faces, once again. Where are the reports from Catherine or anyone connected with her, stating that she had any intention of starting a business?

Come to that, how do any of us know that she isn't running a successful business? You don't have to register with anyone to start or run a business, after all, would any of us realise that Flipsy Bunny (invented name) is owned and run by Catherine? Registration for VAT is voluntary unless the company earns a large amount (£250,000?).
Corporate Tax details are not available to the public and unless she 'floats' the company on the SE, details of the company's owners would be almost impossible to find, especially if you don't know the name of the company to start with!

PAYE details are not available to the public and if any member of staff felt like 'looking her up' on the system, they would find nothing, whilst the system alerts the police and office managers.

Actually didn't that guy who rowed across the Atlantic (there are photos of William welcoming him home) say that she was starting her own business and then it came out that she was just going to be the name and she was being courted by Viyella (i think).

If she was running a successful business, the media would be all over it and quickly. They have all put their hopes on this woman becoming the next Princess of Wales.

In regards to a statement of cooling off, well we have never had a statement of heating up (nor pictorial evidence for that matter, except a kiss on a cheek once or twice).

But i guess the media works both ways, we can't believe then that Kate is the greatest, most elegant and chic creature ever either and that it is a case of "when" not if either.
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  #154  
Old 11-16-2006, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laviollette
Isabella Anstruther-etc. also doesn't return the apparent interest he has in her. She's denied knowing him even though gossip mags say yes, they have met.
Amazing, the gossip mags know better than the girl concerned as to whether they knew each other or dated!
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  #155  
Old 11-16-2006, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laviollette
It's interesting that despite Kate being utterly devoted to William and putting her own life on hold, that they've now had two cooling-off periods in their no more than 3-year relationship (in 2004 and now in 2006). Arabella M. moved on from PW and the PR girl is doing something with her life. She wasn't going to put up with any disrespect due to his roving eye. Anna Sloane of Tennessee declined his offer to date after he became smitten with her during the 2004 cooling-off period with Kate; W&K got back together. Isabella Anstruther-etc. also doesn't return the apparent interest he has in her. She's denied knowing him even though gossip mags say yes, they have met. She's graduated from Edinburgh University and isn't pining for Wills.

So who's left? Kate. Waiting, waiting for a ring, not building a life of her own outside of her bf's life and his interests. And now word of this 2nd cooling-off period. It makes me wonder what Kate is going to do if her relationship with William doesn't work out? What if he dumps her? I think she'll be devastated having put all this effort into this one person and staked her future on him and her expectations don't pan out. If that happens I'll bet it will be spun that Kate dumped Wills but that won't change her hurt feelings after she's become dependent on her bf at the expense of building her own life and career.
With all due respect, Kate has a degree and is able to live on her own. Now William has a set of duties he has to fulfill whether Kate is in his life or not. As for cooling off periods, they could simply be times that he has to not be with her since he has a life of his own. He can't just pop off training, jog to the movie with Kate and then jet off like most trust fund kids his age. She shouldn't expect him to pick her up, whisk her off to the Palace, then toss a ring on her finger as if his entire life was constructed to make her Princess of Wales. It isn't and she had better realize that pronto. She isn't a royal by blood and birth, she's a member of the middle class and William won't be like any husband that her friends are used to or have grown up expecting. If his itinerary states he has to fish for whales after Sandhurst, then that is where he's going to go whether Kate approves or not. The courtiers guide his life so that way the monarchy continues and if Kate wants to stop that or get in the way, then Kate will be (harsh as it sounds) kicked aside. William's life is not like hers and he has a duty to fulfill.

If Kate wants to be a part of his life, it's part of the sacrifices that she will have to make, one sacrifice being he won't be around to hold her hand at all times. If she whines and holds him back, then she will get kicked out. She's 24 for heaven's sake, she should be significantly more mature than this! She jets around, shops at posh shops and clubs at exclusive nightspots, but can't even handle the fact that William has responsibilities that go with the perks? Pretty sad.

When it comes to the cooling off periods, well, she should be getting a life besides that of William. I myself have a boyfriend who is out of state working hard at his new job, but I can't just jet off down there on whim, plus I HAVE to work at a job I hate to make minor ends meet (college student living with parents) so I really don't sympathize with someone who shops all the time and has a degree that she didn't even have to pay for herself. She has plenty of oppoortunities to pull herself out of a funk and get going. The 'cooling periods' could just be times that William can't spend with her since he has to be training. Therefore they are not together at all times. I myself am devoted, but unlike her I cannot just whimsically put my job, family, and social life on hold (I did for a brief time since I wasn't used to not being in a controlling relationship, took time to find my feet) but still, I wasn't ever unemployed.
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  #156  
Old 11-16-2006, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
William's girlfriend can never be a private person - the moment he's seen with her, she becomes public property and I'm not saying thats right, but it's fact. She becomes public property and she has to justify certain things.
william's girlfriend is a private person as long as she remains his girlfriend. just because they're seen together doesn't give the press or the public the right to know about her private life. she doesn't have to justify a single thing unless she's being financially supported by the public. the press has every right to photograph her when she's in public and that's all their entitled to. when and if they marry then i agree her private life will all but disappear. as for whether or not she has money, it was mentioned because of the discussion on why she doesn't have a job and that people were stating that if she has enough money to have the luxury not to have to work then that might be the explanation. i don't believe it was brought up in the context of whether or not she'd make a suitable wife...at least not in this thread. "the same dull expression" was a lovely smile in a recent photograph that was posted here...doesn't look like she's depressed at all...even when she's not smiling. but then again i guess everyone reads facial expressions in a different way. the truth of the matter is that Catherine doesn't have to explain or justify herself to anyone at this point. she's a private citizen in a relationship with a member of the royal family but until they marry, if that happens, then she can do as she pleases; work or not - if she's supporting herself or her parents are or her income is coming from some other private source - shop, sleep, smile, sulk or flop. it's no else's business.
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  #157  
Old 11-16-2006, 06:54 PM
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Note, I never said that was right and made a point that I wasn't saying that. But it's what happens. It's the way the current climate works. The press buys the deeds to the person and shares the property with us. It happens. When they're engaged, it will become even worse because then the ownership passes to us as the British people - we'll own every part of her and that's how it is. We want to see her smile, laugh, cry, frown. We want to hear her swear, we want to see her when she's drunk, we want to test her humanity. It's the way things happen. When they marry - her life is gone. She isn't Kate Middleton anymore. She's ours. She's consigned to a date in a history book and to see if we deem her to be the right one for that footnote in history, we have to test her and scrutinise her now before any mistakes are made. It's sad but true.
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  #158  
Old 11-16-2006, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon
And how would he know.... it is all rumours put about by the media and so called 'friends' who want 5 minutes of fame.


I hardly think he needed to mention Kate Middleton to get his 5 minutes of fame. He rowed across the Atlantic, to me, that's more of an achievement than knowing Kate Middleton. After the interview went out, William was seen with him, so if he had something he shouldn't have than he surely would have been frozen out.
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  #159  
Old 11-16-2006, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Note, I never said that was right and made a point that I wasn't saying that. But it's what happens. It's the way the current climate works. The press buys the deeds to the person and shares the property with us. It happens. When they're engaged, it will become even worse because then the ownership passes to us as the British people - we'll own every part of her and that's how it is. We want to see her smile, laugh, cry, frown. We want to hear her swear, we want to see her when she's drunk, we want to test her humanity. It's the way things happen. When they marry - her life is gone. She isn't Kate Middleton anymore. She's ours. She's consigned to a date in a history book and to see if we deem her to be the right one for that footnote in history, we have to test her and scrutinise her now before any mistakes are made. It's sad but true.
i completely agree that if and when they become engaged then it will be worse than it is now but to say the press buys the deeds to the person and shares the property with us is only half true. like i said when she's in public then the press can snap away but she's not by any stretch of the imagination a public person any other time. while you say you want to see her smile, laugh, cry and frown - you didn't sound very pleased when she was "sulking". as for passing to "us as the British people" i'm canadian and a member of the commonwealth so it's not just "the British people" that she may one day be Queen of. i understand that this all your opinion but don't you think "ownership" is a rather harsh word to use?
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  #160  
Old 11-16-2006, 07:33 PM
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No I don't. It isn't a physical ownership but it's definately an ownership. I don't like her sulking and I'd like to see her show a variety of emotions and something different. At the moment, to me, she's a one trick pony - turns up at Polo, sulks, holds his hand, goes shopping, goes home. It's all very boring and she doesn't have any sparkle. Either she's containing an explosive personality that's going to erupt or she really is as boring as William is and we're all in for a very very boring reign.
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