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  #321  
Old 08-10-2006, 12:47 PM
HRH Elizabeth's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyaR
HRH Elizabeth, You're not being difficult, you are being honest ...
Oh, I was speaking hypothetically...I am an ardent monarchist and as much as some of the members annoy me, I love the institution. However, not all Brits agree with me and some would be happy to see it go, and some behaviours might give people the nudge they needed to lean towards that side. I also think though that the high expectations of the British people are another important tradition...keeps them on their well-heeled toes. When Henry VII acceeded, he passed an Act of Attainter against Richard III and his men, acusing Richard's soldiers of treason for fighting at Bosworth by dating his reign from the day before Bosworth. Parliament didn't much like that and effectively forced him to rescind that portion.
I don't actually think that William will marry some girl, and the next day get a little note from Parliament saying, "Sorry, we no longer need your services." But the trend around the world is to move away from monarchies, even in some of our fellow Commonwealth nations (Australia, etc.) and I think that the behaviour of the royals could be an indirect and long-term cause of the British to move towards a republic. I think also (I know I'm guilty of this) that many people feel that it's better to loose a tradition than keep it incorrectly...I feel as though if we give up strict behavioural expectations of our royals, we might end up with something close to Monaco...scandals everywhere! I really love the institution of the monarchy, and I truly respect the Queen for a nearly flawless reign. However I worry, especially when I see William, Harry, and Beatrice, that we're in for a future of a royal family who utilizes all the perks of being royal but takes on few of the responsibilities. It might only cost 61 pence a year, but I don't want to spend it on a family who doesn't at least endeavour to earn it. As long as they're trying (I mean, Charles isn't exactly Mr. Perfect, but he's a loveable dolt and he does a lot of undersung good for us), I keep up some hope. But as we've discussed, I don't see William and Harry trying that much and I do see them jetting off on wonderful vacations and in Harry's case, dating a completely unacceptable woman. I know my standards for people are often too high, so I try to supplement it by being forgiving-I'll admit, however, that I absolutely expect more from my royal family than this generation is showing me.
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  #322  
Old 08-10-2006, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH Elizabeth
Oh, I was speaking hypothetically...
HRH Elizabeth,

Thank you for that explanation, it makes lots of sense. Thank you also for being patient with me and my point of view, since I am not British I know I don't have the right to speak for the people.

I read something about Prince William on this website: http://www.royalty.nu/Europe/England...r/William.html it gives a lot of information, and at the end is a statement William made regarding how he feels about taking the throne. It made me smile, I hope it does you also.
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  #323  
Old 08-10-2006, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyaR
HRH Elizabeth,

Thank you for that explanation, it makes lots of sense. Thank you also for being patient with me and my point of view, since I am not British I know I don't have the right to speak for the people.

I read something about Prince William on this website: http://www.royalty.nu/Europe/England...r/William.html it gives a lot of information, and at the end is a statement William made regarding how he feels about taking the throne. It made me smile, I hope it does you also.
I'm glad it makes sense and that it came out as diplomatically as I hoped...I understand exactly what you mean as well and I hope you keep sharing your non-British opinion because I enjoy hearing your points even though I don't quite agree.
  #324  
Old 08-10-2006, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH Elizabeth
Oh, I was speaking hypothetically...
I can see exactly where you are coming from on this one and agree 100%! But the Crown Prince and Princess of Norway lived in a flat in Oslo prior to their marriage, which was completly frowned upon by the vast majority, and is totally against the religion which he will become head of state when his father ends his rule as king. But what harm did this do - except some negative press at the time - the couple are highly respected and are a great asset to the human family. Also, Beatrice has only just left school so cannot be expected to have carried out a high number of official duties and William is still training at Sandhurst so I'm sure you'll agree that he has the right to a break on holiday for a bit (although it was rather extravagant). I am unsure of what Harry is doing at the moment, I know there has been some stuff in the news about him going to Iraq but that seem to have blown over - so maybe he should be doing a little more to promote our monarchy and win back some of the wandering citizens.
  #325  
Old 08-10-2006, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rose1991
I can see exactly where you are coming from...
Harry is currently in training to become a Scimitar Light Tank Commander, he is still in Military service training for the Household Cavalry's Blues and Royals.
Here is the link that gives the full information http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/dorset/5002594.stm
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  #326  
Old 08-11-2006, 05:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyaR
Harry is currently in training to become a Scimitar Light Tank Commander, he is still in Military service training for the Household Cavalry's Blues and Royals.
Here is the link that gives the full information http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/dorset/5002594.stm
Thanks, there was some stuff in the news about that but I didn't really pick up on it!
  #327  
Old 08-11-2006, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH Elizabeth
...shouldn't we be able to expect whatever we feel is appropriate?
I agree with you. Afterall, I believe I read this somewhere, that one of the things the Queen asks the British PM is how the British people think about this or that. She appears to know that it is important to please the people who fund the monarchy, so the monarchy must reach and obtain higher standards. Afterall, they are not the 'normal' next-door neighbor that booze in front of the telie in their undershirts and undershorts. There is a formal and informal air that they must follow or their minders are not doing their jobs for which they are getting paid for. The monarchy must retain tradition and must be above the norm in presenting the best of what one can become.

The new generation of princesses and princes in their worn/torn/grundge wear also need to get up to standard. They are not the boys/girls next door. There are expectations. It appears that many recent photos of the younger royals are of them rumping around like drunks & urban thugs. Enough of that, too. A recent photo of QE on her sail around the Outer Hebrides with her family of her neice/nephews and their families, grandson & his girlfriend and her own children and grandchildren were all dressed perfectly to join the Queen. They looked the part. Most of the time, PW & PH do not look the part of princes.
  #328  
Old 08-11-2006, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rose1991
I can see exactly where you are coming from on this one ...
I can't argue with the facts you mention, only our interpretations of them. I do not expect William, Harry or Beatrice to have saved the world, cured AIDS or anything else of the sort. However, Beatrice has accompanied her mother to rather a lot of high profile but ever so slightly less than genteel society events, and according to the gossips, dated a man with a criminal record, neither of which are terribly inspiring. Harry has not performed many official duties to my knowledge, but has found the time to be photographed with illegal substances and date the daughter of a man who collaborates with one of Africa's worst dictators. Charming. And while William has performed royal duties, in my opinion at 23 he could be doing more.

As for the Crown Prince and Princess of Norway, I couldn't speak as to what harm it caused...I'm not a Norwegian subject. If it works for Norway, than my standards of behaviour are completely irrelevant. But I have to admit, while I am not opposed to commoner brides (as far as I can tell, Mary of Denmark seems to be doing wonderfully), Mette Marit is, to me, an extraordinarly common one. Had it been William and not Haakon she was seeing (putting the age difference aside), I would have had a fit. I hope I never see someone with her history as my queen, not because her work for Norway has been unacceptable - to the contrary, she seems to have performed her duties admirably - but simply because I do not think that a woman who has had a child out of wedlock with a man involved in drugs is an acceptable consort. I'm pleased that it has worked out for Norway, but...
  #329  
Old 08-11-2006, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH Kimetha
... I believe I read this somewhere, that one of the things the Queen asks the British PM is how the British people think about this or that.
I knew there was a reason that HM has always been my favourite!
  #330  
Old 08-11-2006, 03:43 PM
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HRH Elizabeth- having read this thread I would agree with your comments. I think the problem that a lot of royal fans have in looking for a change in a monarchy, is the fact that too many royal today behave and are treated like celebrities. A celebrity can be a normal person ( though remember they have usually worked for their position) but Queen Elizabeth- our Queen too- is part of a constitutional democracy. She is not there even for the ribbon cutting but to have the meetings with her Prime Minister every week- and Harold Wilson's acknowledgement of his embarrassment discovering his lack of knowledge compared to the Queen at their first meeting, shows how significant the British monarch is. She has her red boxes full of government documents that she read and deals with every day, including all holidays, because that was her vow to her people and she is regularly updated with what is going on in her Commonwealth countries. The Queen still has her Royal Prerogative-an important source of power within the UK constitution. All of these things are not seen by the public abroad, unfortunately they think of ribbon cutting and charities, but these are facts and known by many Brits. The Queen is the Head of State not a celebrity which is what many of the younger royals appear to be, and which, in my opinion, will create devolution in their respective monarchies. I think her children are also doing fine jobs - fine examples to other royals , but the grandchildren, who knows? Elizabeth was Queen at 26 and was already involved in royal duties. We don't see that happening now.
  #331  
Old 08-11-2006, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
In what sense? I mean, William's father married someone who was considered to be an eminently appropriate bride at the time, and look where that ended up.
Although I still adore Diana, if Charles had spent more time with Diana prior to the wedding, perhaps the fiasco could have been avoided. It's hard to be sweet and angelic 24 hours a day, and maybe Diana would have figured out that being a princess wasn't what she really wanted. Contrast that situation with Edward and Sophie (and we don't hear about their discord), and maybe "living together" is a good test of the prospective royal couple.
  #332  
Old 08-11-2006, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
However, Beatrice has accompanied her mother to rather a lot of high profile but ever so slightly less than genteel society events, and according to the gossips, dated a man with a criminal record, neither of which are terribly inspiring.
Beatrice still has to finish her education and like all young people will make mistakes. She still has a lot of growing up to do before she takes on royal duties, if she is even going to do that.

Going to events with her mother is not her fault considering that until a few days ago she was still legally a minor. These events speak more about Fergie's faults than anything to do with Beatrice. Should she continue attending some of these places, on her own, in the years ahead then there may be cause for concern but give the girl a chance and remember that Mum's, particuarly when the parents are divorced, are very influential. Maybe here the Queen needs to step in and have a word to Sarah about where it is appropriate for her grand-daughters to be going considering they are her grand-daughters.

Her friendship with a man with a criminal record is a concern but frankly it was not that bad so long as she doesn't marry him. I think that she has stopped seeing him now anyway. Remember she has only just turned 18.

Quote:
Harry has not performed many official duties to my knowledge, but has found the time to be photographed with illegal substances and date the daughter of a man who collaborates with one of Africa's worst dictators. Charming.
Harry is still doing him military training and will probably will spend most of the next ten years or even more in the army. I doubt if he will do all that many royal duties as he will be a serving officer. Sure he will be involved in the charity that he set up in Africa but doing royal duties in the way that his father does is not in his immediate future I suspect.

As for Chelsy - she shouldn't be held responsible, and subssequently punished, for the actions of her father surely. Her dress sense leaves a lot to be desired - although it is similar to any early 20s young ladies that live near me (except for the Muslim girls).

Quote:
And while William has performed royal duties, in my opinion at 23 he could be doing more.
As he is also doing full-time military training his opportunities for doing royal duties are rather limited at this point in his life. He couldn't do too many duties while at university if he was to concentrate on his studies and his fellow cadets would be really upset if he missed training activities to do duties. I know he has been playing polo recently but I also doubt if he has been missing training to play polo, usually at charity events and thus raising money for good causes.

One thing that has been made loud and clear is that Charles, and before her death, Diana wanted was for their children to be allowed to be as normal as possible - remember the baseball caps back-to-front at Maccas that they wore with Diana (I remember shortly after she died a report in one of the newspapers preparing to criticise Charles if the boys weren't seen dressed like that in the future...). Neither parent wanted the boys to have to undertake full-time royal duties too soon.

Charles had to do duties while at university and while in the navy and he wants something different for his sons - a more normal life for a time. Nothing wrong with that.
  #333  
Old 08-13-2006, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrissy57
Beatrice still has to finish her education and like all young people will make mistakes...
I'm afraid I have to disagree...Charles' sons are not normal, they are second and third in line to the throne, respectively, and can never have normal lives. It's true that Harry will be in the military and I count that along with royal duties - he will still be working for the British people, as it were. However, I don't see how anyone can argue that 24 and 22, the boys are too young to take on royal duties in full (including army service, etc).

As to Chelsy, I'm hardly suggesting punishing her...but I do think that there is a difference between punishing her for her father's sins and believing she is suitable to date or heaven forbid marry a royal. At this point, I'm certain someone will bring up Princess Maxima of the Netherlands - as I said about Mette Marit, if it works for the Dutch, I'm delighted for them (and I do love Maxima) but I cannot say I would have been so enthusiastic about it occurring on British soil. Chelsy's father makes her, in my opinion, completely unsuitable, even if she dressed as a nun. Particularly given Britain's history with Zimbabwe, and Mugabe's brutality, the daughter of a man who has collaborated and made rather a lot of money off such a horrid regime should never be a princess of the United Kingdom, in my opinion. And as I said, my objections to her go far beyond attire, but I have to say that I do not believe, when it comes to being or dating royals, that the excuse of "that's precisely what other girls her age do" cuts it. The whole point of royals, as I understand it, is to not be like the other kids their age - HM surely was not!

Finally, Beatrice...as nearly as I can tell, she has not shown any serious indication of attending university, and as she is now legally an adult, I fail to see why she cannot take on royal duties. Also, I have to disagree about her dating a man with a criminal record...even if she doesn't marry him (I was certain that there would be no way in hell that HM would agree to such a thing), by dating him, she embarrassingly connects him to the British Royal Family. I don't believe 18 is too young to recognize that, like it or not, she is a princess of the United Kingdom, and she has to moderate her behaviour and her dates accordingly.
  #334  
Old 08-13-2006, 05:29 PM
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William is doing what can as far as Royal duties.
  #335  
Old 08-13-2006, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH Elizabeth
I'm afraid I have to disagree...Charles' sons are not normal, they are second and third in line to the throne, respectively, and can never have normal lives.
I didn't say they were normal.

I said that both Diana and Charles wanted them to be raised to be 'as normal as possible'.

The fact that both of them are trying to live as normal a life as possible reflects on the upbringing they were given, particularly by their mother with their father's agreement - i.e. as normal as possible.


Quote:
It's true that Harry will be in the military and I count that along with royal duties - he will still be working for the British people, as it were. However, I don't see how anyone can argue that 24 and 22, the boys are too young to take on royal duties in full (including army service, etc).
My point about their ages is that they are doing full-time military duties and therefore don't have time to do the sorts of full-time royal duties that their father is doing. Maybe you didn't read my entire post as I said that the first time.

They have too much on their plates at the moment serving in the army to be doing any extra duties. I expect Harry to be in the army for the next two decades at least and William for most of the next decade (his father served for 7 years and he was the heir - William is only second in line and will be able to serve for longer if the Queen lives that long).


Quote:
As to Chelsy, I'm hardly suggesting punishing her...but I do think that there is a difference between punishing her for her father's sins and believing she is suitable to date or heaven forbid marry a royal. At this point, I'm certain someone will bring up Princess Maxima of the Netherlands - as I said about Mette Marit, if it works for the Dutch, I'm delighted for them (and I do love Maxima) but I cannot say I would have been so enthusiastic about it occurring on British soil. Chelsy's father makes her, in my opinion, completely unsuitable, even if she dressed as a nun. Particularly given Britain's history with Zimbabwe, and Mugabe's brutality, the daughter of a man who has collaborated and made rather a lot of money off such a horrid regime should never be a princess of the United Kingdom, in my opinion. And as I said, my objections to her go far beyond attire, but I have to say that I do not believe, when it comes to being or dating royals, that the excuse of "that's precisely what other girls her age do" cuts it. The whole point of royals, as I understand it, is to not be like the other kids their age - HM surely was not!
If the reason that you say she is unsuitable to be a princess is because of her father then you are punishing her for the sins of her father.

If Harry and Chelsy do truly love each other then they should be allowed to marry in my opinion. I will never support the idea of denying her and Harry their happiness because of her father's actions.

I think you demands that the future wives of Harry and William don't dress and behave as other young women their own age smacks of Diana keeping herself 'tidy' at a time when most young ladies were sleeping around. We know how disastrous that turned out to be - let them date and marry girls who have had real life experiences.

Quote:
Finally, Beatrice...as nearly as I can tell, she has not shown any serious indication of attending university, and as she is now legally an adult, I fail to see why she cannot take on royal duties.
She has been an adult for less than ONE WEEK. Give her a chance to find what interests her and where she can work.

I have read that she would like to go to college in the USA. If so that will be another four years before she finishes her education. Even if she doesn't go to university I am sure their is other training she could be doing before deciding on her future life.

Quote:
Also, I have to disagree about her dating a man with a criminal record...even if she doesn't marry him (I was certain that there would be no way in hell that HM would agree to such a thing), by dating him, she embarrassingly connects him to the British Royal Family. I don't believe 18 is too young to recognize that, like it or not, she is a princess of the United Kingdom, and she has to moderate her behaviour and her dates accordingly.
Again the insistance of the parents to allow their children to have as normal an upbringing 'as possible' has meant that the behaviour standards of earlier generations aren't there any more.

Maybe, to satisfy your standards, rather than mine, we need to return to educating royal children behind palace walls - in the way that the Queen was educated. She certainly had very few 'normal experiences' whereas she and Philip tried a bit and then Diana and Sarah even more at giving their children more 'norma' upbringings. The results include meeting and dating people that in earlier times would not have come into their circle of acquaintances.

Personally I like Chelsy. She has spunk and reminds me a lot of Sarah - fun and different.
  #336  
Old 08-13-2006, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrissy57
Personally I like Chelsy. She has spunk and reminds me a lot of Sarah - fun and different.
Unfortunately, fun and different didn't seem to work out too well for Sarah or the Windsors.
  #337  
Old 08-19-2006, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iowabelle
Although I still adore Diana, if Charles had spent more time with Diana prior to the wedding, perhaps the fiasco could have been avoided. It's hard to be sweet and angelic 24 hours a day, and maybe Diana would have figured out that being a princess wasn't what she really wanted. Contrast that situation with Edward and Sophie (and we don't hear about their discord), and maybe "living together" is a good test of the prospective royal couple.
I do agree with what you said Iowabelle but even before the marriage Charles had told Diana that he didn't love her so I think Charles should have called off the marriage though it would cause a media frenzy it would have caused a lot less heartache in the long run.
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  #338  
Old 08-19-2006, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juliana
HRH Elizabeth- having read this thread I would agree with your comments. I think the problem that a lot of royal fans have in looking for a change in a monarchy, is the fact that too many royal today behave and are treated like celebrities. A celebrity can be a normal person ( though remember they have usually worked for their position) but Queen Elizabeth- our Queen too- is part of a constitutional democracy. She is not there even for the ribbon cutting but to have the meetings with her Prime Minister every week- and Harold Wilson's acknowledgement of his embarrassment discovering his lack of knowledge compared to the Queen at their first meeting, shows how significant the British monarch is. She has her red boxes full of government documents that she read and deals with every day, including all holidays, because that was her vow to her people and she is regularly updated with what is going on in her Commonwealth countries. The Queen still has her Royal Prerogative-an important source of power within the UK constitution. All of these things are not seen by the public abroad, unfortunately they think of ribbon cutting and charities, but these are facts and known by many Brits. The Queen is the Head of State not a celebrity which is what many of the younger royals appear to be, and which, in my opinion, will create devolution in their respective monarchies. I think her children are also doing fine jobs - fine examples to other royals , but the grandchildren, who knows? Elizabeth was Queen at 26 and was already involved in royal duties. We don't see that happening now.
I agree that the royals today are treated like celebrities more and the newspapers are becoming more intrusive. William and Harry have been seen acting a lot more laid back and so I think it makes them seem a little less royal sometimes. I am not saying they are any less royal than others becuase I love seeing them grow and I think William will make an excellent king some day I'm just pointing out that William and Harry like to have fun and the photographers usually catch them in those moments.
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I think the biggest disease the world suffers from in this day and age is the disease of people feeling unloved. I know that I can give love for a minute, for half an hour, for a day, for a month, but I can give. I am very happy to do that, I want to do that.- Princess Diana
  #339  
Old 08-19-2006, 04:23 PM
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I have to agree with HRH Elizabeth on the responsibility and conduct of today's young royals. Once they turned 18, they should have been expected to start undertaking official royal duties. It is no different, really, from any child upon the age of adulthood to start actively participating in the family business. Like it or not, they are public figures. Who they are puts them into the spotlight. The right of privacy and the expectation of privacy for royals and celebrities are really two different things.

Should William and Kate live together? Well, we don't really know if they are or not, do we? At least not in the every day sense. I would really like to at least see an engagement ring on her finger before they do that. A future king should not make a habit out of setting up house with his girlfriends until he picks one to marry. Kate and William shared a house (with other people) while they were at university together. It's not like she will all of a sudden find out that he is a slob and that he will realize that she looks like a hag without her makeup on first thing in the morning. I don't think that either of them still have their virginity, although the less said on that topic the better. They have had several years to learn each others little pecadillos and isn't that what "living together" is supposed to accomplish? But are they really living together at Clarence House? Who knows. Like it or not, William is not an ordinary young man. He must accept life in the public eye. He must accept having every move he makes reported on, photgraphed and talked about. He must accept that his actions are expected to be above and better than the people that he represents. If he doesn't want to, he can step down. He does have a choice. He certainly doesn't need to remove himself from his family like the Duke of Windsor did, but if he can't accept life in the golden fishbowl and all the requirements and restraints that accompany it, he should remove himself from the line of succession. He can't be "normal" and the future monarch at the same time, and like it or not, he can't have a "normal" relationship as a future monarch either. As long as they live separately, I think taking his relationship with Kate slowly is great. A more positive marriage may result from it. But years of co-habitating and no wedding turn her from a future royal consort into a royal concubine.

As for QEII's other adult grandchildren:

Harry - great for you with your apparently dedicated military service! But your girlfriend???? If you really really love her, then marry her. But take a cue from Prince Johan Friso of the Netherlands and step out of the line of succession. Chelsey becoming HRH Princess Harry - never! I don't care what her father does < ed >

Beatrice - you're 18. You say that your mother taught you to respect your birthright and to work hard? Put on a tiara and get to it! You could certainly swing a few official engagements between semesters. Most college students have jobs to put themselves through.

Zara and Peter Phillips - You are the Queen's grandchildren, but you are officially commoners and private citizens. It's nobody's business what you do. Although, you should respect Grandmother as much as anyone else would respect theirs and endeavor to make her proud.

I apologize for my puritanical views. I have a high respect for all the monarchies, probably because I'm a traditionalist and I don't have one of my own as an American. I blame it on the fact that my husband and myself are both (very) distantly descended from English monarchs ! I would have made a GREAT Queen!!!hahahahaha
  #340  
Old 08-19-2006, 08:54 PM
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The role of the Crown is far more important in the UK parliamentary democracy than any other currently reigning European monarchy is (The Grimaldis of Monaco excepted). For this reason, the role of The Sovereign and the image of the royal family is still very important to the Government.

The Prime Minister wants to be able to exercise Executive power through the Crown's royal perogative. If the monarchy is diminished or considered to be unimportant, than a new form of government would have to be defined in a written constitution, which is not necessarily a superior system over the current constitutional monarchy.

William and Harry are second and third in line for the throne and will never be "normal". They are certainly far more down-to-earth and aware of the real world than the previous generation of royals, but that doesn't mean they can take the liberties allowed the Scandinavian or Dutch monarchies.

They have to develop into mature men who marry appropriately and take on royal duties to uphold the monarchy, which is what both their parents wanted for them.
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