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  #41  
Old 09-09-2008, 01:57 AM
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She didn't holiday "all the time" this year. She was on three vacations with William Klosters in March/April, Mustique in May, Mustique in August. That's 3 weeks and a very common amount of holidays for European standards. You get about 4-6 weeks off plus bank holidays in Europe. I think in the US it's much less.
Most events she attended (with the exception of the wings and the Garter) took place on weekends - so no sign for her not working either. She was hardly seen out and about enough to leave no time to work at Party Pieces. To the contrary. She was hardly photographed. For example the last pics of her and William clubbing were taken August 15 that's 3 weeks ago.
In Europe three weeks or a month´s holiday is usual, but they are not usually taken in three "doses" and if she was only out clubbing August 15 that was the only time that Prince William had available. I don´t think it is a smear campaign to tell the truth. She asked everyone to call her Catherine and everyone is (at least here). The Duchess of York asked everyone from the day she was married and probably before that, she didn´t want to be called Fergie (who would?) she was Sarah and wanted to be known by her name......hard luck, no one took any notice. So if Kate doesn´t want to be called this that is rather bad luck for her as I don´t think she is as badly treated namewise as Sarah Ferguson was, it sounded very disrespectful and she WAS a royal, married to the Queen´s second son, Miss Middleton is just waiting around so far, perhaps if she does get what she wants in the future, history books will print her name as Catherine.
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  #42  
Old 09-09-2008, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Isana View Post
She didn't holiday "all the time" this year. She was on three vacations with William Klosters in March/April, Mustique in May, Mustique in August. That's 3 weeks and a very common amount of holidays for European standards. You get about 4-6 weeks off plus bank holidays in Europe. I think in the US it's much less.
4-6 weeks?! I think there were would lots of people celebrating in the UK if they did get that amount of time off.

As for her holidays I don't think many companies would allow their employees to take so many holidays in such a small space of time.
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  #43  
Old 09-09-2008, 09:02 AM
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Kate's lifestyle is definitely not the lifestyle of an average girl of her age therefore people are interested. If she had a job, do the usual holiday and nights out nobody would care too much about her. She's one of those who don't get that you can't have it both ways - dating the future King and sporting the rich-bored-girl lifestyle under the eyes of the paparazzi but at the same time playing the private citizen card. In case of an engagement she will face a tough time because nobody knows what she stands for as she hasn't visibly done anything substantial for years. Vacation, clubbing, shopping or even editing the online catalogue for her parents' company hardly qualifies somebody as future Queen, at least not a middleclass commoner living in the 21st century.
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  #44  
Old 09-09-2008, 10:06 AM
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In case of an engagement she will face a tough time because nobody knows what she stands for
She's not on the hustings campaigning for election. I don't know of any potential royal bride-to-be who's been obliged to publicly explain "what she stands for".
Ultimately she will be judged solely on how she performs her duties as a member of the Royal Family, not on what she did or didn't do prior to the transformation.
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  #45  
Old 09-09-2008, 10:13 AM
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4-6 weeks?! I think there were would lots of people celebrating in the UK if they did get that amount of time off.

As for her holidays I don't think many companies would allow their employees to take so many holidays in such a small space of time.
My husband just finished a 5 week holiday and has another one in November and after Xmas... that's pretty normal here in Germany, where overtime working hours can be added to your 6 week holidays plus bank holidays... Ok he's a research scientist at a state-funded institute but that's how the law is.
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  #46  
Old 09-09-2008, 10:44 AM
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She's not on the hustings campaigning for election. I don't know of any potential royal bride-to-be who's been obliged to publicly explain "what she stands for".
Ultimately she will be judged solely on how she performs her duties as a member of the Royal Family, not on what she did or didn't do prior to the transformation.
I disagree Warren. In the 21st century it is beneficial to public acceptance if the future Queen stands for something or is qualified in something and has a professional background. Mathilde is a speech therapist, Maxima was in banking, Letizia a journalist. A qualification for something can become a main theme in future duties which helps to be taken seriously. Monarchy is not seen as god-given anymore where people pay for the lifestyle for their representatives but are not allowed to ask questions about the qualification of those who represent the country. I am not sure that Kate's decision to solely focus on her prince and on the perspective of an eventual engagement or marriage is the right attitude to convince people she is the best choice for the wife of the future Head of State. Most of all will never know Kate Middleton personally so we have to judge her on what we see or read and what I have seen or read so far about her doesn't fit into my understanding of a qualified aspirant for Queen consort.
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  #47  
Old 09-09-2008, 11:49 AM
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I disagree Warren. In the 21st century it is beneficial to public acceptance if the future Queen stands for something or is qualified in something and has a professional background.
I agree with Warren on this point. Catherine is not "on the hustings campaigning for election". She is Prince William's girlfriend until otherwise advised. Until such time as this changes I fail to see what she could do to alter our perception of her worth as a human being one way or the other.
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade
Most of all will never know Kate Middleton personally so we have to judge her on what we see or read and what I have seen or read so far about her doesn't fit into my understanding of a qualified aspirant for Queen consort.
I am at a loss to comprehend precisely what qualifies an aspirant for Queen consort, albeit 20-30 years in the future. She is educated. She has a degree.

The future wife of Prince William would earn absolutely no brownie points for "going Hollywood" and conspicuously adopting a charitable and therefore "political" stance. She could already be a fully paid up member of Habitat for Humanity - oops, that's a political swipe at the government's housing policy so if she marries William that will have to go. Save the Whales? Nope, that would alienate some of Britains trading partners. "Fair Trade"? same as before, etc. ad nauseum.

It is only if and when she becomes wife to the second in line to the throne that we would all be looking to see what causes she will choose to support.
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  #48  
Old 09-09-2008, 12:13 PM
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It is only if and when she becomes wife to the second in line to the throne that we would all be looking to see what causes she will choose to support.
I completely agree with this. I think it would be ridiculous and perhaps presumptious for her to start doing charity work now. If (and it is still a quite big if) she marries Prince William then she will have to think about charity work or some cause (very difficult when you look at Marg´s list). Save the dolphins perhaps? No doubt she would have advisers to tell her what she should do as far as charity is concerned. First marriage. On some threads I have seen it commented that they don´t look that comfortable together, this may be because they know there is a camera always at the ready, but since this has been pointed out I have noticed it more and more.
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  #49  
Old 09-09-2008, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Warren View Post
She's not on the hustings campaigning for election. I don't know of any potential royal bride-to-be who's been obliged to publicly explain "what she stands for".
Ultimately she will be judged solely on how she performs her duties as a member of the Royal Family, not on what she did or didn't do prior to the transformation.
The difference between Kate and most other commoners who married into the RFs was the length of time each spent "waiting to become part of the firm". Letizia was a royal fiancee the same day the Spaniards did not see her on the TV, Alexandra also surprised the Danes, so the difference IMO with Kate is that she has been around for so long , she gave time to everyone to speculate and offer opinions. Most of the others arrived at the palace at the arm of their intended and had no time or need to explain much.
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  #50  
Old 09-09-2008, 02:28 PM
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Is it not possible that she truly loves William with a mature love that passes the test of time?

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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
I am not sure that Kate's decision to solely focus on her prince and on the perspective of an eventual engagement or marriage is the right attitude to convince people she is the best choice for the wife of the future Head of State.
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  #51  
Old 09-09-2008, 08:02 PM
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But, with William, the DM have behaved as if he "belonged" to them in some way predicated on the link they previously had with his mother.
Interesting point. Many of the first group of reporters covering Diana before engagement, the likes of James Whitaker comes to mind, had made statements to the effect that they think Diana owed them her royal position. When she started to complain about press coverage and intrusion years later, competing papers would publish unflattering stories whenever she gave another scoops. Even now, when there is a flattering story on William, or Harry, there is the inevitable "Diana would be proud" line. It's as if these writers on royals, and their paper, feel they are the ones who knew Diana best, and her true standard bearers. This would make sense in their criticism of Kate. Taking the position of her would-be-future-mother-in-law, the likes of Daily Mail are the proud mamas/papa, tut-tut-ing on Kate's every move.
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Old 09-09-2008, 10:03 PM
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Well said Incas. Scary, but well said!

Freud would have had a field day were he still around. The kind of dynamics in play here are truely unhealthy, and that being the case the "mother-in-law" seems more than willing to destroy Catherine if she cannot control her.
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  #53  
Old 09-09-2008, 10:38 PM
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Just a reminder of this rule:
  • Discussion of other forums and websites should be limited to royal-related content. We do not allow criticism of other forums or continuation of disagreements that started elsewhere.
I understand that events at another royalty forum are indeed relevant to this thread. However, that doesn't excuse intemperate accusations against, and outright bashing of, members of other forums (who in some cases are also members here) or the forums themselves. Not every forum has the same subject matter, emphasis, and guidelines, and it would be pretty boring if they all did. We'd like to maintain good relations with the other royalty forums if possible, and some of the earlier posts in this thread aren't exactly calculated to help us do that.

I've done some deleting and editing, and I hope the mods can rely on everyone's good sense about this matter from here on.

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  #54  
Old 09-09-2008, 11:17 PM
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I disagree Warren. In the 21st century it is beneficial to public acceptance if the future Queen stands for something or is qualified in something and has a professional background.
You may be right in this but I fear this is an unreasonable expectation. If so, it is as if the public wants a princess that reflects themselves - a woman with all the middle class virtues that we expect from a young professional career woman while the woman in question may be put in a position that is far removed from our middle class reality as possible.

What can a prospective royal bride be qualified in to make her ready for a role as Princess? I work in HR and we deal with a lot of highly qualified and professional people who are just in the wrong jobs. They're bright, they're good, but they're not effective in their jobs because their jobs require skills and qualities they don't have. The qualifications that would make a woman a successful modern career woman may be detrimental to the qualities that she would need to have as Princess.

The BRF has many more privileges than the rest of us but they also have more restrictions; the members of the royal family cannot be so prominent that they outshine the monarch and they need to avoid taking on causes that can be in any way construed to have political overtones. Because of these restrictions, I think a woman that actually tries to stand for something before she marries into the family will have a tougher time of being accepted. No matter how popular a particular stand is right now, it can become unpopular over time and then the royal's identification with a certain position can turn out to be detrimental both to the royal in question and the royal family as a whole.

That having been said, if you are right and the British public is looking for a royal family with more middle class virtues, then I believe the BRF needs to find ways to exhibit those virutes in a way that doesn't look hypocritical for a family of their wealth and status. It is their job to keep in touch with the masses. However, I think this is a job for the Royals that are already in the family and any efforts towards making the BRF seem more in line with the middle class really need to be spearheaded by the Queen as the head of the monarchy.

IMO such a change can not be spearheaded by an outsider coming into the family. It makes the outsider look risky and the Royal Family look weak.
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  #55  
Old 09-10-2008, 02:17 AM
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From Day One, I noticed the very, very, very subtle undertone that Kate was not "good enough" for Wills in many articles.

Jealousy, perhaps?

No, it's the lack of royal or even aristocratic bloodline, imo.

And, of course, she isn't "good enough". (Sometimes I like to think like a courtier in these matters)

But that's is exactly why William adores her, imo.
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  #56  
Old 09-10-2008, 02:25 AM
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From Day One, I noticed the very, very, very subtle undertone that Kate was not "good enough" for Wills in many articles.

Jealousy, perhaps?

No, it's the lack of royal or even aristocratic bloodline, imo.

And, of course, she isn't "good enough". (Sometimes I like to think like a courtier in these matters)

But that's is exactly why William adores her, imo.
I am sure there is probably some jealousy among William admirers but I am afraid the one thing I can´t quite agree with you about is the "William adores her" I really can´t see this. He is a young man with a presentable young lady at his complete disposition. She is said to have turned down jobs because she wants to be free when he feels like (or can) see her. On his part he doesn´t show that he feels anything very special for her but then how can anyone know this but it is a "feeling" I get from seeing their photos and whenever one of my sons came home (at last) with that someone really special it was very obvious.
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  #57  
Old 09-10-2008, 05:55 AM
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You may be right in this but I fear this is an unreasonable expectation. If so, it is as if the public wants a princess that reflects themselves - a woman with all the middle class virtues that we expect from a young professional career woman while the woman in question may be put in a position that is far removed from our middle class reality as possible.

What can a prospective royal bride be qualified in to make her ready for a role as Princess? I work in HR and we deal with a lot of highly qualified and professional people who are just in the wrong jobs. They're bright, they're good, but they're not effective in their jobs because their jobs require skills and qualities they don't have. The qualifications that would make a woman a successful modern career woman may be detrimental to the qualities that she would need to have as Princess.

The BRF has many more privileges than the rest of us but they also have more restrictions; the members of the royal family cannot be so prominent that they outshine the monarch and they need to avoid taking on causes that can be in any way construed to have political overtones. Because of these restrictions, I think a woman that actually tries to stand for something before she marries into the family will have a tougher time of being accepted. No matter how popular a particular stand is right now, it can become unpopular over time and then the royal's identification with a certain position can turn out to be detrimental both to the royal in question and the royal family as a whole.

That having been said, if you are right and the British public is looking for a royal family with more middle class virtues, then I believe the BRF needs to find ways to exhibit those virutes in a way that doesn't look hypocritical for a family of their wealth and status. It is their job to keep in touch with the masses. However, I think this is a job for the Royals that are already in the family and any efforts towards making the BRF seem more in line with the middle class really need to be spearheaded by the Queen as the head of the monarchy.
Excellent post Ysbel. It is true that there are many sides to the story and if things will finally turn out good or bad for the monarchy we will only know in many years’ time. I can only speak for myself and I rather prefer a future Queen who “stands for something” to one who doesn’t, whether her name will be Kate Middleton or not, and I believe my opinion reflects the majority of the British people. If it didn’t there wouldn’t be all these stories focussing on Kate and her attitude, I reckon that parts of the discussion are unlucky or superficial, but the blame cannot only lie with the media but also lies with Kate, William and the handling of the BRF. People want to know that royals are there for a purpose and not only enjoying the privileges that come with royal life. In times when even the Queen feels the need to cancel a wedding anniversary reception as the country is facing a recession, it doesn’t give the best of images when the young generation hits the headlines with living the easy life, be it Harry, William or Kate, who has been seen with William for such a long time that she is not only strongly associated with him but also with the lifestyle he leads as royal, although his final commitment towards her keeps missing, for whatever reason. I wonder how long this whole scenario will go on as the only party that currently benefits from the situation is the mass media, selling their magazines. There will be tough times ahead after the death of HM, an icon on the one hand, a cork in the bottle slowing down modernisation on the other hand. The new monarch and his family will have to accommodate the media or public opinion much more than HM ever had to as she is associated with to another era, but that bonus won't be granted to her successor.


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IMO such a change can not be spearheaded by an outsider coming into the family. It makes the outsider look risky and the Royal Family look weak.
I believe it can work, but depends very much on the personality of the outsider. If all had been well in the Wales household Charles and his outshining outsider wife Diana IMO would have become the golden couple of monarchy, standing for tradition, modernisation and keeping in touch with the masses at the same time. Sadly, it wasn’t meant to be. Two more examples that worked IMO are Queens Silvia and Rania but to be fair these monarchies are not as much the golden fishbowl the BRF are.
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Old 09-10-2008, 09:01 AM
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I don't think I can agree with you - Catherine hardly needs any special qualifications. I wish she'd been on holidays less then she's now and would otherwise choose a career or some sort of goal for future. But let's face it; even if she does marry William, she's going to be his consort, most of the pressure and attention should be on William. Now when it comes to him, I do think he needs to pay more attention to his future role and were a bit more prepared for it.
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Old 09-10-2008, 01:44 PM
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---Snipped---- That having been said, if you are right and the British public is looking for a royal family with more middle class virtues, then I believe the BRF needs to find ways to exhibit those virutes in a way that doesn't look hypocritical for a family of their wealth and status. It is their job to keep in touch with the masses. However, I think this is a job for the Royals that are already in the family and any efforts towards making the BRF seem more in line with the middle class really need to be spearheaded by the Queen as the head of the monarchy.
I find it hard to believe that the majority of the UK public want their Royal Family to have middle class 'virtues'. Those that continue to look up to the RF, do so because they are not middle class and do not have their virtues (many middle class virtues leave a lot to be desired anyway).
-------------------------------
Catherine is doing what 1000's of girls and boys do, from the similar backgrounds of wealth.

If 'people' are really going to suggest she becomes 'qualified' as a princess, starts on a career (which she would probably have to leave after they become engaged) then shouldn't the same question be asked of William. His work record isn't too good, he has had more holidays than Catherine, has been off on other jolly japes (Army, RAF, Navy) a few weeks/months at each one, if we want to judge both, his staying power is laughable!

Next thing someone will suggest she is sent to Paul Burrells for training!
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Old 09-10-2008, 01:53 PM
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and I believe my opinion reflects the majority of the British people. If it didn’t there wouldn’t be all these stories focussing on Kate and her attitude,
There we will have to disagree 100%. There is a concerted effort by some in the media (namely the Daily Mail) and one or two forums, (most of the posters on them seem to be American), to bring the girl down in some way. The very fact that the Mail had to use one of the forums to back it's story up shows, to me, a lack of support for their opinion.

I interact with people from all walks of life, of varying ages and almost all are of the opinion that 'they should leave them alone' and for those that work, 'I wish I could lead that lifestyle, perhaps when I win the Lotto, or the phrase some on here hate, 'they're just jealous'.
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