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  #141  
Old 11-11-2008, 10:30 AM
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One thing I don't understand here is that when Prince Charles is accused of wasting taxpayer money for one reason or other, his defenders are very quick to point out that he's funded by revenue from the Duchy, not via the Civil List. I think William and Harry are also funded from Duchy money rather than being paid for out of the Queen's taxpayer-provided income. So if they used their own money to pay for expenses over and above the salaries of the protection officers, which would be paid whether they were in Africa or in England, how is it all of a sudden taxpayers' money being used?
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  #142  
Old 11-11-2008, 06:47 PM
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I stupidly had it in my mind that the charity carried extra costs associated with the security men accompanying the princes. That is clearly wrong. I think I was distracted by the photo of the princes looking very pleased with themselves and was angered by the fact they each paid only the minimum donation when others raised much more.

As long as either the Duchy or the princes themselves paid the security people's costs of the jaunt over and above their ordinary salaries, I have no complaint except that the princes are mean since it seems they only gave the minimum donation required. If there is a valid reason details of the royals' donations to charities are not published fair enough, but if they did give extra, the fact they did give more should have been mentioned, I think. Whether they like it or not public opinion of them does matter these days, and this is the sort of thing that affects public opinion. And why didn't they arrange to be sponsored by friends as other people were? Is that forbidden for royals too?
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  #143  
Old 11-11-2008, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Muriel
Is it fact that Harry was given special leave, or is it mere speculation? And even if he were given special leave, thats a matter between him and his superiors.
I think you will find that special leave was granted, but as I unable to prove it, we will have to leave the articles by the various media organisations as checked by them. One might get it wrong, but not I think all. With regard to being 'up to his superior officers', it depends how much they want to keep their jobs and whether they are soldier soldiers or political soldiers.
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As regards the cost of security as I previously said, if it has been decided that the boys need security, then that is it. You can't use that as a stick to restrict their movements. Asking the "court of the Daily Mail" for approval for what might be a suitable charity event for members of the royal family to attend is asinine in my opinion!
Nobody has left it up to the Mail, as far as I know, unless you have something to say that all the negative comments in all the papers and all the negative comments on this and other forums, are by members of the Mail. That would equate to a suggestion from me, that anyone defending these two children (I use the word knowingly) works for their PR department! They can travel wherever they want in their pursuit of the wow factor, just ensure they pay ALL the extra costs of their security detail and ensure they actually raise some money.
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I was in london for the weekend a few weeks ago and went to Primrose Hill with some family. By the swings was none other than David Miliband, playing with his 2 sons, followed discretely by 2 security guards. Extending your argument further, surely the foreign secretary has no business to take his children to the playground on a Sunday morning!
But you are not extending my argument at all are you, you just seem to be trying to deflect the facts with such a statement, I find it hard to believe that you are unable to comprehend the difference. Miliband was being guarded in the UK because of his job - he wasn't on a jolly needing the extra payments made on behalf of unnecessary expenses incurred by his detail. By the way, if Milibands security guards were seen by you, they were not very good, or were they just a couple of chaps who happened to be in the same vicinity.

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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
One thing I don't understand here is that when Prince Charles is accused of wasting taxpayer money for one reason or other, his defenders are very quick to point out that he's funded by revenue from the Duchy, not via the Civil List. I think William and Harry are also funded from Duchy money rather than being paid for out of the Queen's taxpayer-provided income. So if they used their own money to pay for expenses over and above the salaries of the protection officers, which would be paid whether they were in Africa or in England, how is it all of a sudden taxpayers' money being used?
Security is not paid by The Duchy, nor are the costs incurred by the security team. IF Charles had gone off on such a jaunt and expected the taxpayer to pay the extra costs incurred, I would push him off his motorbike! I understand the cost of the security officers entry, m/c clothing etc was not met by William, Harry or Charles, the only money paid by them was apparently their own entry fees, clothing and m/c hire, all items extra to those a security team would need in the normal, day to day job of providing security for them.
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  #144  
Old 11-11-2008, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
As long as either the Duchy or the princes themselves paid the security people's costs of the jaunt over and above their ordinary salaries, I have no complaint
But neither the Duchy nor the princes paid.
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  #145  
Old 11-11-2008, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
Security is not paid by The Duchy, nor are the costs incurred by the security team. IF Charles had gone off on such a jaunt and expected the taxpayer to pay the extra costs incurred, I would push him off his motorbike! I understand the cost of the security officers entry, m/c clothing etc was not met by William, Harry or Charles, the only money paid by them was apparently their own entry fees, clothing and m/c hire, all items extra to those a security team would need in the normal, day to day job of providing security for them.
I find it difficult to believe that Charles, at their ages, never went on any jaunts of his own, protection officers in tow. Of course this was in the day before the royal family reported all of their expenses to the public.
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  #146  
Old 11-11-2008, 07:13 PM
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Just about everything Charles or Andrew did was reported here to death and no, I can't think of any little jollies such as this. I think Anne only had one bodyguard when someone tried to kidnap her. If he had, I am quite confident the squirrels at the Mail would by now have drawn the comparrison.
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  #147  
Old 11-11-2008, 08:08 PM
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Well you can't exactly compare the them at full value. While William and Harry put a little fun into their charity work, Charles' charity work has always been rather traditional. That's not to say that Charles was not given plenty of opportunity to have a non-charity related jolly or ten courtesy of the taxpayers at their age.

At least William and Harry didn't request Sandringham pheasant flown to them while they were on the trek.
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  #148  
Old 11-11-2008, 08:18 PM
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At least none that we know of.

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Originally Posted by kimebear View Post
At least William and Harry didn't request Sandringham pheasant flown to them while they were on the trek.
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  #149  
Old 11-11-2008, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by kimebear View Post
Well you can't exactly compare the them at full value. While William and Harry put a little fun into their charity work, Charles' charity work has always been rather traditional. That's not to say that Charles was not given plenty of opportunity to have a non-charity related jolly or ten courtesy of the taxpayers at their age.
Might one ask, at the risk of a knuckle rapping, where you learned that charles was ever given such an opportunity and like for like how much did they each raise for each charity, 500 wasn't it
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At least William and Harry didn't request Sandringham pheasant flown to them while they were on the trek.
They didn't need too, cuisine has improved since Charles took Diana anywhere, although how anyone.....

IMO, It shows when people have to sink to something Charles is reported (by Dianas ex chef needing to... sell a book) to have done, that there is no excuse for their behaviour. This is probably the same ex employee who gave the egg story to Giles Brandreth, which unusually for them, Clarence House denied emphatically!
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  #150  
Old 11-11-2008, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post

Security is not paid by The Duchy, nor are the costs incurred by the security team.
No, it isn't, but as long as the protection officers are salaried, it doesn't matter where they are, they're getting paid anyway.

As far as their expenses to travel to and from Africa and take part in the trek - do we know (by which I mean, is it disclosed and itemised anywhere and been confirmed) who paid? And if it has been confirmed, could we get a link to wherever the information is posted?
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  #151  
Old 11-11-2008, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
Might one ask, at the risk of a knuckle rapping, where you learned that charles was ever given such an opportunity and like for like how much did they each raise for each charity, 500 wasn't it
I might ask you the question of where you learned that he had not. Since the private holidays of the royals were not reported on then with the same full color and glossy attention to detail that they are now, I'm afraid that neither of us will ever know for sure how many times he had a jolly on the taxpayers dime as a young man.

500? Sounds like the problem is that William and Harry need to find some more generous friends who are willing to shell out bigger contributions when they do something worthy like this.


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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
They didn't need too, cuisine has improved since Charles took Diana anywhere, although how anyone.....

IMO, It shows when people have to sink to something Charles is reported (by Dianas ex chef needing to... sell a book) to have done, that there is no excuse for their behaviour. This is probably the same ex employee who gave the egg story to Giles Brandreth, which unusually for them, Clarence House denied emphatically!
I'm just giving this story the same merit that is given to all DM stories. BTW, just because a book needs to be sold doesn't make the information in it false.
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  #152  
Old 11-11-2008, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
I think I was distracted by the photo of the princes looking very pleased with themselves and was angered by the fact they each paid only the minimum donation when others raised much more.
This doesn't mean they didn't pay more money to the charity. It also doesn't cover the fact that the entry fee is ALSO money being given to the charity.
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Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
As long as either the Duchy or the princes themselves paid the security people's costs of the jaunt over and above their ordinary salaries, I have no complaint except that the princes are mean since it seems they only gave the minimum donation required. If there is a valid reason details of the royals' donations to charities are not published fair enough, but if they did give extra, the fact they did give more should have been mentioned, I think.
Why would they mention it? That is simply going to leave them open to questions of "How much more did you give?" and questions such as "How come you gave XYZ amt to that charity and not the same/less/more to this charity?"

I would totally understand admitting the entry fee being paid since it is obvious that they would have to pay in order to be a part of the ride. However much more they gave is really a private matter not for the public IMO.

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Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
And why didn't they arrange to be sponsored by friends as other people were? Is that forbidden for royals too?
Think about how much charity work these boys do and are asked to do. Then think about how often you get asked (on a personal level) to donate money to charities yourself and how often you actually WANT to donate when it's the same thing coming round time and time again.

Usually you want to keep your friends. You can't do that if you are constantly coming to them with your hand out for donations. Eventually they are going to get annoyed and stop talking to you.

I'm also not believing the $500 until it is actually VERIFIED by someone other than "an anonymous source." It's too easy to fabricate a story by claiming some "source" said this and that when none of it is true.

Also, while the financial amount they themselves brought in between themselves and their friends might be small the amount of attention and publicity they brought to the CHARITY is priceless- as many people will see the charity and donate simply because they have become more aware of it because of the princes.

None of us would probably have known this charity even existed if it were not for the princes' "jolly" ride and yet you are all discussing whether $500 is enough of a donation.

I'm sure much more than $500 has been brought in by the princes' media awareness simply through people who became aware of the charity through the princes' place in the media- the princes' should get credit for those too IMO.
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  #153  
Old 11-12-2008, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
No, it isn't, but as long as the protection officers are salaried, it doesn't matter where they are, they're getting paid anyway.

As far as their expenses to travel to and from Africa and take part in the trek - do we know (by which I mean, is it disclosed and itemised anywhere and been confirmed) who paid? And if it has been confirmed, could we get a link to wherever the information is posted?
I think we can all be certain that with the negative publicity this has caused, if they had paid the extra money for their 6 security men, it would have been released. I will turn your question on it's head, do any of you have any link to a suggestion they might have paid?
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  #154  
Old 11-12-2008, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by kimebear View Post
At least William and Harry didn't request Sandringham pheasant flown to them while they were on the trek.
I wonder how Charles should represent Britain and its industry (including the food industry and tourism - which is about food as well) with using only locally bought products for the banquests he hosts. You simply can't impress your guests with British lifestyle on serving them locally raised Prime Beef with Idaho potatoes... You need the genuine stuff and that has to come from Britain - in honour of the guests even from a Royal residence, if possible. Another example: think of Nicolas Sarkozy hosting a thank you-dinner for the US president in the French embassy in Washington - would you comment on the fact that he is serving French wines instead of US-American ones? Or rather wonder if he doesn't?

I think it has been established without any doubt that Charles is very environmental concious and surely would personally prefer to serve local food, which is another of the topics dear to him - so surely he had a good reason like the above mentioned to make pheasants from Sandringham the culinary highlight at a banquet he hosts.
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  #155  
Old 11-12-2008, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Nitefeatherz View Post
It also doesn't cover the fact that the entry fee is ALSO money being given to the charity.
The entry fee is apparently the only money they gave, 1500 that everyone taking part had to pay towards their food, accommodation and guides, so in reality did the charities receive any money.
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Why would they mention it? That is simply going to leave them open to questions of "How much more did you give?" and questions such as "How come you gave XYZ amt to that charity and not the same/less/more to this charity?"
A simple 'The princes also made a private donation to each of the charities', would have been sufficient.
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Think about how much charity work these boys do and are asked to do. Then think about how often you get asked (on a personal level) to donate money to charities yourself and how often you actually WANT to donate when it's the same thing coming round time and time again.
Sorry, I don't understand your question or point. I, like many donate money and time on a regular basis to charities I wish to support. The others that might come round once a year, I again donate to if it is a cause/charity I agree with. Unfortunately I have never yet found one that doesn't have it's merits.
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I'm also not believing the $500 until it is actually VERIFIED by someone other than "an anonymous source." It's too easy to fabricate a story by claiming some "source" said this and that when none of it is true.
The organisers gave the information to the media, the 500GBP is the entry fee of 1500GBP broken down to cover the three charities supported this year. What evryone seems to have missed, myself included until this morning, is that the 1500GBP fee, also appears to cover their guides, food and accommodation, which reduces the amount given to charity even more.
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Also, while the financial amount they themselves brought in between themselves and their friends might be small the amount of attention and publicity they brought to the CHARITY is priceless- as many people will see the charity and donate simply because they have become more aware of it because of the princes.
None of us would probably have known this charity even existed if it were not for the princes' "jolly" ride and yet you are all discussing whether $500 is enough of a donation.
It is not a charity, it is an event to raise money for selected charities. Now that the esteemed members of TRF know of this event, how many I wonder are going to sign up or sponser someone?
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  #156  
Old 11-12-2008, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
No, it isn't, but as long as the protection officers are salaried, it doesn't matter where they are, they're getting paid anyway.

As far as their expenses to travel to and from Africa and take part in the trek - do we know (by which I mean, is it disclosed and itemised anywhere and been confirmed) who paid? And if it has been confirmed, could we get a link to wherever the information is posted?
From: BBC News | UK | 'Severe' cuts in Royal security
Both Buckingham Palace and the Home Office would not make a statement on the reported review, and told BBC News Online they "never comment on royal security".


So I guess we won't find reliable data about the costs for this trip. But the bill is of course funded by the taxpayer, as the whole SO14 department is funded by the Home Office.

There is a special procedure for overseas visits of Royals, as mentioned at the Diana-inquest, but I haven't been able to trace more information about that. But if the Royalty and Diplomatic Protection Department has a fixed procedure how to work, I guess that they are the ones to cover the costs as well.
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  #157  
Old 11-12-2008, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
Nobody has left it up to the Mail, as far as I know, unless you have something to say that all the negative comments in all the papers and all the negative comments on this and other forums, are by members of the Mail. That would equate to a suggestion from me, that anyone defending these two children (I use the word knowingly) works for their PR department!
The fundamental point is that the royals cannot be forced into a situation where they have to think about the incremental security costs everytime they stepped out. The cost of security is bourn by the government. You can't start demanding on a piecemeal basis that specific elements of those costs be reimbursed by the royal household. Thats just ridiculous, and defeats the purpose. Its tantamount to saying that the Queen should start to receive an element of the Crown Estate's annual surplus despite a certain ancestor of hers having agreed to surrentder the surplus to the Treasury in return for the civil list!

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Miliband was being guarded in the UK because of his job - he wasn't on a jolly needing the extra payments made on behalf of unnecessary expenses incurred by his detail.
....but he was! His role as Foreign Secretary does not extend to taking his children to the playground on Sunday mornings! The Zoo is next door, and they may have gone there after that. I bet Miliband would not be required to pay for the entry of the security detail. This could go on, but the key point is that the costs of security are fully underwritten by the government for those that have been afforded security cover.

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By the way, if Milibands security guards were seen by you, they were not very good, or were they just a couple of chaps who happened to be in the same vicinity.
Its not often you see two men in ties and formal jackets sitting in a corner in a playground, who then follow the Foreign Secretary when he heads around the corner!
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  #158  
Old 11-12-2008, 11:25 AM
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I must say I have no idea but would like to know: what if Royals visit the opera? Or another place where an entrance fee is to be payed? Do the protection officers buy seats next to the Royal and pay entrance fees? Or are they allowed to go in for free because they are policemen on duty?
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  #159  
Old 11-12-2008, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by muriel View Post
The fundamental point is that the royals cannot be forced into a situation where they have to think about the incremental security costs everytime they stepped out. The cost of security is bourn by the government. You can't start demanding on a piecemeal basis that specific elements of those costs be reimbursed by the royal household. Thats just ridiculous, and defeats the purpose.
The junior members ot the Royal Family should have to take into consideration the EXTRA costs that might have to be borne by UK taxpayers if they want to engage in an extra 'fun' activity. Did they do this m/c ride out of the kindness of their hearts, IMO of course they didn't, they saw it as a fun trip and if they could pass it off as being for charity, all the better, IMO.
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....but he was! His role as Foreign Secretary does not extend to taking his children to the playground on Sunday mornings! The Zoo is next door, and they may have gone there after that. I bet Miliband would not be required to pay for the entry of the security detail. This could go on, but the key point is that the costs of security are fully underwritten by the government for those that have been afforded security cover.
Pretty sure hypothetical extras such as visits to the Zoo, would have to be declared, however, once again you are skirting the issue. The scenario you are presnting is that if William and Harry decide to orbit the moon at a cost of 1,000,000,000GBP each, because they are given security by the British taxpayer, their security detail of six would need to go and that would also be OK, as long as they dress it up as charity.

Back to Miliband, being an elected member of parliament and the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, even whilst at the park or Zoo, he could be called on to immediately respond to a call from Brown, if he asked the security detail to accompany his children home, then that could be judged in the same context as William and Harry.
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Its not often you see two men in ties and formal jackets sitting in a corner in a playground, who then follow the Foreign Secretary when he heads around the corner!
You quite often see men and women formally dressed sat in parks that happen also to include a play area, without a little sign on their foreheads you have no way of knowing who they were!

This isn't about ordinary security details, it is about the extra costs incurred by taxpayers to enable William and Harry to enjoy an adventure motorcycle ride.
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Old 11-12-2008, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
I must say I have no idea but would like to know: what if Royals visit the opera? Or another place where an entrance fee is to be payed? Do the protection officers buy seats next to the Royal and pay entrance fees? Or are they allowed to go in for free because they are policemen on duty?
For the opera or cinema, they are not normally given seats, they stand or sit outside the box and in the foyer, as they are not watching the performance, they wouldn't be expected to pay.
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