Prince William and Catherine Middleton Possible Titles

[Madame Royale]

People will always refer to public figures in familiar terms, and I don't doubt she will regularly be called 'Kate' but that just enables the public to associate with her on a more, dare I say, 'involved' level.

As we know, officially she will always be Catherine, and that's all the matters. Though if William is created a royal Duke, then the media would be perfectly aware that it will be obliged to address her as a 'Duchess'. That then being her principal title.

 

[monkeyfish]

Repeat yourselves as much as you like good folk, she won't be made a princess in her own right. Accept it or not, it wont change a thing.

Next...

I agree. Her Majesty won't make that big of a change.

 

[Sister Morphine]

Why does Kate even have to get a title?

Because that's how it's done when a woman marries into a royal family -- she receives the feminine form of her husband's title(s). It would be akin to a woman marrying into your standard run-of-the-mill family and either taking her husband's last name, or hyphenating it with her maiden name.

She could just be Mrs. Catherine Mountbatten-Windsor or Mrs. Catherine Middleton.

She can't be Mrs. Catherine Middleton because she's not marrying a man whose last name is Middleton. She's marrying a man who in essence, has no last name at all.

Since she is technically marrying a man that possess a HRH he legally does not have a last name correct?

Correct. Although on the banns of marriage, he may do as his aunt and uncle (and I believe his father) did, and list his last name as Mountbatten-Windsor, though I don't think that's required. His signature is just "William", and that's it.

I would also like to know if because she is marrying a male member of the royal family will she automatically become HRH Princess William of Wales? In that case she could be Mrs. Catherine Wales.

She would be HRH Princess William of Wales, because that's the feminine form of her husband's title/style, which I mentioned above. She would not be Mrs. Catherine Wales, because Wales is not his last name. When he and Harry were in school (much like Beatrice and Eugenie would use York), he would use Wales as a last name if he needed one, but it's not his legal surname.

 

[melissaadrian]

Because that's how it's done when a woman marries into a royal family -- she receives the feminine form of her husband's title(s). It would be akin to a woman marrying into your standard run-of-the-mill family and either taking her husband's last name, or hyphenating it with her maiden name.



She can't be Mrs. Catherine Middleton because she's not marrying a man whose last name is Middleton. She's marrying a man who in essence, has no last name at all.



Correct. Although on the banns of marriage, he may do as his aunt and uncle (and I believe his father) did, and list his last name as Mountbatten-Windsor, though I don't think that's required. His signature is just "William", and that's it.



She would be HRH Princess William of Wales, because that's the feminine form of her husband's title/style, which I mentioned above. She would not be Mrs. Catherine Wales, because Wales is not his last name. When he and Harry were in school (much like Beatrice and Eugenie would use York), he would use Wales as a last name if he needed one, but it's not his legal surname.

He uses it in the military too doesn't he? At least Harry I am sure has Wales on his uniform, instead of a surname.

 

[Sister Morphine]

I know he did when he first joined the military, so it would make sense if he continues to do so.

 

[PrincessKaimi]

Just a side note about an upthread conversation about the use of the letter R. after a Queen's name. I too thought it was used only by Queens who reigned in their own right, but Queen Elizabeth (the Queen mom) used it frequently in her letters, starting immediately after her coronation. That's in the Shawcross book. As far as I can tell, her husband never corrected her nor did anyone tell her not to do it.

She was the reigning Queen at the time, although as a consort - still, when George VI died, she was no longer The Queen (as she was before). I'm going to have to check the book, but I believe she still used the R. a few more times (possibly out of habit) in letters to friends.

It does stand for the Latin for Queen, and perhaps that's how she thought of it.

So one day, we might see Catherine signing her name, Catherine R. as shorthand for Catherine, Queen of England.

Or Kate R.

I myself will have no trouble referring to her as Duchess Kate if she's got the title of Duchess...

 

[Leslie2006]

I wonder if William and Kate are granted an earldom or ducal title, would they request that their children just be 'lord' and 'lady' as Sophie and Edward did with Louise and James, or as the heir of the heir, would William even have that option?

 

[Lumutqueen]

There eldest child is going to be the King or Queen one day, I doubt they'll ever have the option of a quiet life even with a Lord or Lady title.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Under the current LPs William's eldest son will automatically be an HRH but until Charles becomes King (or William if Charles predeceases the Queen) the other children will be Lord or Lady.

William could ask for them to remain that way throughout their lives, of course, giving them a lower profile forever but...

 

[Sister Morphine]

Anne Boleyn signed her name "Anna Regina" or "Anna the Queen". So yes, when Catherine is queen, she could sign her name "Catherine Regina" or Catherine R" and it would appropriate.

As for what William and Kate's future kids will have as titles/styles, it depends on when they're born. According to Letters Patent, the eldest son of the eldest son of the PoW is entitled to the HRH Prince X, but all children after that are merely Lord/Lady. Now, if their first-born is a girl, and she is born while the Queen still lives, she'd be Lady X. If their ducal title is Cambridge, she'd be Lady X Cambridge. If their first born is a son, he'd be HRH Prince X of Cambridge. Once Charles is King, as grandchildren of the monarch in the male line, all their children would be elevated to HRH Prince/Princess X of Cambridge (or whatever their ducal title is).

 

[Queen Penelope]

Under the current LPs William's eldest son will automatically be an HRH but until Charles becomes King (or William if Charles predeceases the Queen) the other children will be Lord or Lady.

William could ask for them to remain that way throughout their lives, of course, giving them a lower profile forever but...

Would William and Kate's younger children not be His/Her Highness? Or would they simply be Lord/Lady. For some reason I remember a His/Her Highness somewhere...:shrug:

 

[Sister Morphine]

Would William and Kate's younger children not be His/Her Highness? Or would they simply be Lord/Lady. For some reason I remember a His/Her Highness somewhere...:shrug:

No, they'd be Lord/Lady. It used to be that great-grandchildren of the monarch in the male line were HH Prince/Princess. George VI was the great-grandson of Queen Victoria, and was thus HH Prince Albert of York when he was born. In 1917 however, George V created new Letters Patent, which changed that.

 

[Queen Penelope]

^^previous

Thanks!!

I couldn't remember...darn my memory!!

 

[Grandduchess24]

Should Kate get the title princess of wales upon marriage or is it camilla's?
I think it should be
Prince william of wales and princess Catherine of wales.

 

[Lumutqueen]

Should Kate get the title princess of wales upon marriage or is it camilla's?
I think it should be
Prince william of wales and princess Catherine of wales.

It's Camilla's until Charles becomes King.

 

[Sister Morphine]

Should Kate get the title princess of wales upon marriage or is it camilla's?
I think it should be
Prince william of wales and princess Catherine of wales.

Camilla is the Princess of Wales, as she's married to the Prince of Wales. Catherine will not be the Princess of Wales until such a time as Charles creates William the Prince of Wales.

Furthermore, Catherine won't be Princess Catherine of Wales, because she's not a princess of the blood, and it's highly, highly doubtful the Queen will create her a princess in her own right, when she didn't do the same for her daughters-in-law, or her cousins' wives. She will be HRH Princess William of Wales, or HRH The Duchess of X, if the Queen grants William a dukedom on his wedding day.

 

[FasterB]

So when Charles becomes king and Camilla queen, then William and Catherine will be Prince(ss) of Wales and will officially be known as such? But in the public eyes they´ll be Prince William and Princess Catherine?

 

[Sister Morphine]

So when Charles becomes king and Camilla queen, then William and Catherine will be Prince(ss) of Wales and will officially be known as such? But in the public eyes they´ll be Prince William and Princess Catherine?

No. Prince of Wales is not an automatic title; each time it is conferred, it must first be created. When Charles becomes King, William will be HRH The Prince William, Duke of Cornwall & _____ (whatever ducal title he could receive from the Queen) and Catherine will be HRH The Princess William, Duchess of Cornwall & _____.

They'll probably always be referred to in the press as Prince William and Princess Catherine (although in her case that would be incorrect, as she'll never be Princess Catherine) until they are King and Queen.

 

[FasterB]

No. Prince of Wales is not an automatic title; each time it is conferred, it must first be created. When Charles becomes King, William will be HRH The Prince William, Duke of Cornwall & _____ (whatever ducal title he could receive from the Queen) and Catherine will be HRH The Princess William, Duchess of Cornwall & _____.

They'll probably always be referred to in the press as Prince William and Princess Catherine (although in her case that would be incorrect, as she'll never be Princess Catherine) until they are King and Queen.

Thanks for your answer

But may I say that I am glad to live in Denmark, where this titlething isn´t that difficult as it seems it is in the UK

 

[Mia_mae]

No, they'd be Lord/Lady. It used to be that great-grandchildren of the monarch in the male line were HH Prince/Princess. George VI was the great-grandson of Queen Victoria, and was thus HH Prince Albert of York when he was born. In 1917 however, George V created new Letters Patent, which changed that.

If they change the law, making the first born the heir to the throne regardless of the gender, then a daughter would be know as HRH Princess .... ??

 

[Sister Morphine]

If they change the law, making the first born the heir to the throne regardless of the gender, then a daughter would be know as HRH Princess .... ??

If the UK adopts equal primogeniture, it would depend on when it happens and if it's retroactive (as was the case in Sweden) or not (as is the case in many other monarchies).

In either instance new Letters Patent would have to be issued detailing the change in titling/styling of the eldest child of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales.

 

[branchg]

If their ducal title is Cambridge, she'd be Lady X Cambridge.

They would be "Lord/Lady X Mountbatten-Windsor" as male-line great-grandchildren of The Queen under the 1917 Letters Patent. They are entitled to this style in their own right, regardless of whether William is created a Duke.

 

[melissaadrian]

Should Kate get the title princess of wales upon marriage or is it camilla's?
I think it should be
Prince william of wales and princess Catherine of wales.

Unless Charles divorces Camilla and marries Catherine, Catherine will not be Princess of wales until the day her husband is Prince of Wales. Camilla IS princess of Wales, she chooses simply to be referred to as Duchess of Cornwall instead, because of the whole Diana issue.

Catherine will never be Princess Catherine of wales, except to the public. She will be Princess William of Wales, or if they get a ducal title like Camebridge, Duchess of Camebridge. Camilla is not Camilla Princess of Wales, she is HRH the princess of wales, if she ever used the name. Catherine will be HRH Princess William of Wales, or HRH The Duchess of .....

 

[PrincessKaimi]

So, is there a chance that William will be created Earl, since he will inevitably become Duke of Cornwall? I know the Queen is being parsimonious with titles.

I am beginning to see the wisdom of that approach.

Oh, and I'm still not getting why Camilla is HRH the Princess of Wales, whereas Catherine will be HRH Princess William of Wales.

Why isn't Camilla HRH the Princess Charles of Wales, if she chose to use the title?

(Feel like a Ludite - no offense to any Ludites, will desist from using it if it is offensive!)

 

[cmkrcwi]

Because Charles is The Prince of Wales, not Prince Charles of Wales.

 

[Sister Morphine]

So, is there a chance that William will be created Earl, since he will inevitably become Duke of Cornwall? I know the Queen is being parsimonious with titles.

It's possible, but Prince Edward being created Earl of Wessex was by his request, not because the Queen just decided to do it that way. It's tradition for the groom to be conferred a dukedom on their wedding day. This goes back hundreds of years.

Oh, and I'm still not getting why Camilla is HRH the Princess of Wales, whereas Catherine will be HRH Princess William of Wales.

Camilla's the Princess of Wales because Charles is the Prince of Wales. With a "the". William is merely a Prince of Wales, not the Prince of Wales. Two separate distinctions. Catherine will be Princess William of Wales because her husband is Prince William of Wales.

Why isn't Camilla HRH the Princess Charles of Wales, if she chose to use the title?

She is HRH The Princess Charles, but not HRH The Princess Charles of Wales because Charles isn't HRH The Prince Charles of Wales. He's merely HRH The Prince Charles, Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall, so forth and so on. She doesn't use the title because she has other titles she can use, such as The Duchess of Cornwall. A woman uses the senior-most available title to her, although in Camilla's case out of deference, she does not.

 

[Madame Royale]

So, is there a chance that William will be created Earl, since he will inevitably become Duke of Cornwall? I know the Queen is being parsimonious with titles.

I am beginning to see the wisdom of that approach.

Oh, and I'm still not getting why Camilla is HRH the Princess of Wales, whereas Catherine will be HRH Princess William of Wales.

Why isn't Camilla HRH the Princess Charles of Wales, if she chose to use the title?

(Feel like a Ludite - no offense to any Ludites, will desist from using it if it is offensive!)

William and Henry take their fathers principal title and apply, as part of their designation, the Principality of Wales.

So,

The Prince of Wales > Prince William of Wales > Princes Henry of Wales

The same is said for the Duke of York and his daughters

The Duke of York > Princess Beatrice of York > Prince Eugenie of York

So Catherine, as the wife of William, will become Princess William of Wales.

Hope that helps

 

[PrincessKaimi]

Thank you all for trying to explain.

In the future, when William does become Prince of Wales, though - won't Catherine then have the same title that Camilla now holds?

 

[Sister Morphine]

Thank you all for trying to explain.

In the future, when William does become Prince of Wales, though - won't Catherine then have the same title that Camilla now holds?

Yes. As the wife of the Prince of Wales, Catherine will be HRH The Princess William, Princess of Wales, Duchess of Cornwall, so forth and so on. Camilla will be Queen (she better be, anyway), so she'll cease to have those titles, as her husband will no longer carry them.

 

[melissaadrian]

So, is there a chance that William will be created Earl, since he will inevitably become Duke of Cornwall? I know the Queen is being parsimonious with titles.

I am beginning to see the wisdom of that approach.

Oh, and I'm still not getting why Camilla is HRH the Princess of Wales, whereas Catherine will be HRH Princess William of Wales.

Why isn't Camilla HRH the Princess Charles of Wales, if she chose to use the title?

(Feel like a Ludite - no offense to any Ludites, will desist from using it if it is offensive!)

Because Prince/Princess of Wales is a peerage. It is like Duke and Duchess of Cornwall, or Earl and Countess of Wessex. If Charles was simply HRH Prince Charles of the United Kingdom, with no peerage, she would be Princess Charles of the United Kingdom. It is a peerage. His children carry the title of prince x of wales, as children of his peerage.

Prince William of Wales is a title not a peerage. Therefore his wife will be Princess William of Wales. If he is given a peerage, say Duke of Camebridge, then she will be entitled to the rank. Camilla is entitled to Princess of Wales, Catherine to her husband's peerage, so Duchess of Camebridge.