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View Poll Results: What Title will the Queen bestow on William and Catherine?
Duke of Clarence 25 16.45%
Duke of Cambridge 68 44.74%
Duke of Sussex 5 3.29%
Duke of Windsor 8 5.26%
Duke of Kendall 2 1.32%
Earl of Something 8 5.26%
Hey! My choice isn't listed. I think it will be something else. 10 6.58%
Nothing. I think they will remain Prince and Princess William of Wales 26 17.11%
Voters: 152. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1581  
Old 04-23-2011, 08:35 AM
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Another issue which related to titles for William and Kate which I don't think has been discussed at all, is the simply and very practical issue of salary. As Duke of Cornwall, Charles gets alot of money to support himself. While I realize William is not going to go hungry, I think some dukedoms (I don't know which ones) come with land and financial rewards, while others do not. Is the same true of earls? Does Andrew and Edward earn alot of money as a result of their titles? If so, what would be the financial rewards of being made duke or earl of the leading candidates?
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  #1582  
Old 04-23-2011, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Americanskipper View Post
Another issue which related to titles for William and Kate which I don't think has been discussed at all, is the simply and very practical issue of salary. As Duke of Cornwall, Charles gets alot of money to support himself. While I realize William is not going to go hungry, I think some dukedoms (I don't know which ones) come with land and financial rewards, while others do not. Is the same true of earls? Does Andrew and Edward earn alot of money as a result of their titles? If so, what would be the financial rewards of being made duke or earl of the leading candidates?

Andrew and Edward get nothing from their titles as there is no set land or other income associated with these titles (same for Gloucester and Kent). These four are supported by the private income of the Queen.

Cornwall was set up to provide an independent income for the heir to the throne - independent of the monarch by the way.

The other royal duchy which provides an income is Lancaster - but that is the private income of the monarch.

Other Dukedoms that have incomes have come about because they also included estates at a time when land provided wealth. The landed aristocracy frequently were able to diversify into some form of industry to add to their wealth e.g. Duke of Westminster. The Duke of Marlborough was given Blenheim and its land as a thank you from the monarch and nation (for a peppercorn rent of one flag about the Battle of Blenheim to be handed personally to the monarch on the anniversary of that battle - hence the Duke of Marlborough is always at Balmoral for the start of the grouse hunting season as the battel was either the 11th or 13th August and the grouse hunting seasons starts on the 12th). A similar situation arose with the Duke of Wellington only his flag has to be presented on the anniversary of the Battle of Waterloo. The nation and monarch (actually the Prince Regent) gave the first duke the lands around his estate.

William is independently wealthy thanks to his mother's death as he inherited half her estate and would be very close to gaining full control of his share (I think that is next year). In the meantime he has the income from his share of the estate and he has whatever allowance his father has made for him from the income of the Duchy of Cornwall. He also has his military pay (and as I heard that Harry's would be getting a pay rise to about 70,000 pounds or dollars - I can't remember - with his most recent promotion) and William is on the equivalent rank I would assume that William will be on a similar income.

No title that the Queen gives him will come with any income.
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  #1583  
Old 04-23-2011, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacomartin View Post
The precedents of Diana, and Camilla are not that relevant, as neither woman was saddled with the Princess male-firstname style.

Yes they were. They just had other titles to use. Both Diana and Camilla were/are HRH The Princess Charles, Princess of Wales, Duchess of Cornwall, Duchess of Rothesay, etc,. Had Charles not been a peer at the time of either wedding, they would have been HRH The Princess Charles.

Just because they didn't use it doesn't mean they didn't have it. Sophie is HRH The Princess Edward, but she has a title and she uses it -- the Countess of Wessex. Sarah was HRH The Princess Andrew, but she had a title and she used it -- The Duchess of York.
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  #1584  
Old 04-23-2011, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
I think she needed it because on becoming a British citizen Marina could only keep and use her foreign title of princess through Royal permission. But I guess she got that permission already on marrying into the BRF.
That is correct. Marina was "HRH The Princess George" with marriage to a son of The Sovereign. While she was born a Princess of Greece and Denmark, her royal rank and style in the UK reflected her marriage. Foreign titles can only be used in Britain when The Sovereign formally recognizes it.

With the death of The Duke, she remained "HRH The Duchess of Kent" until her son Edward married Katharine Worsley in 1961. She was permitted to assume the style of "HRH Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent" by The Queen to distinguish her from the new Duchess.
  #1585  
Old 04-23-2011, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
She didn't need permission to be HRH Princess Marina of Greece and Denmark. She couldn't be deprived of that on marriage. Like a 'Lady' who marries they remain a Lady xxx.

She wasn't Princess Marina of the UK but she was always a princess in her own right.

After her marriage to refer to her as Princess Marina of Kent was wrong but she was still Princess Marina of Greece and Denmark.
One needs a Royal Warrant to legally use foreign royal or noble titles in the UK. Social use is different. In Marina`s case she did require the approval of The Queen when she wanted to be known as HRH Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent because in the UK she was not a princess in her own right.
  #1586  
Old 04-23-2011, 02:17 PM
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Boy, was I wrong!

When this thread began, I thought it would be about a page long. Who knew it would turn into a tutorial?
  #1587  
Old 04-23-2011, 04:20 PM
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I was wondering what happens in the following scenario:

William is not granted a title on his wedding day and then pre-deceases his father AND his grandmother. What would Kate be then styled as? The Dowager Princess William? I beleive she would still be a HRH as the widow of a Prince of the blood royal as long as she does not remarry.

Also, in this same secanrio if William and Kate divorce. She cannot call herself Catherine,Princess William I presume as Prince William is a proper name and not a peerage title
  #1588  
Old 04-23-2011, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HRHofNothing View Post
I was wondering what happens in the following scenario:

William is not granted a title on his wedding day and then pre-deceases his father AND his grandmother. What would Kate be then styled as? The Dowager Princess William? I beleive she would still be a HRH as the widow of a Prince of the blood royal as long as she does not remarry.

Also, in this same secanrio if William and Kate divorce. She cannot call herself Catherine,Princess William I presume as Prince William is a proper name and not a peerage title

If William predeceases both his father and grandmother, but he and Catherine have no children, she would continue be styled as HRH Princess William of Wales, if William was not granted a peerage. She would lose the title if she remarried. If they had children, and William hadn't been granted a peerage, the Queen could give her a title as the mother of the future king or queen, but I don't know. I would assume she'd be granted a life peerage of some kind, to honor her rank as the mother of the future monarch, but I can't recall off the top of my head a situation where that has happened.

If they were to divorce, she'd take on the style of a divorced woman, but not that of a divorced peeress. I believe she'd go back to being Catherine Middleton. Now, because of what happened with Diana, if they had children, I believe something different and better would be done for her to reflect the fact she's the mother of the future monarch. I do remember reading quite a bit of articles in the wake of Diana's death that more should have been done for her in deference of the fact that William would one day be king, and that his mother shouldn't have just been cast off in the way she was, as it was different than when Andrew and Sarah divorced or when Anne and Mark Philips divorced.
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  #1589  
Old 04-23-2011, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnEliza View Post
It doesn't seem like there would be any particular reason to depart from the usual title, though -- why change it to Princess Catherine? Isn't it also incorrect to refer to Diana as Princess Diana (as the media did all the time?) Wasn't her title (before divorce), HRH Diana, Princess of Wales? Or is "The" supposed to be in there?
i think it would be great if she is named princess catherine, william and catherine is a new generation of the royal family.
  #1590  
Old 04-23-2011, 06:58 PM
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We are less than six days and counting to the wedding of Prince William of Wales and Catherine Middleton.

For the last couple of months we have been discussing possible titles for the couple. Now its time to vote.

What title will the Queen bestow on William and Catherine?

The options are: Dukes of Clarence, Cambridge, Sussex, Windsor or Kendall. Or the Earl of Something, My choice isn't listed or Nothing!


Enjoy!

Warren, wbenson & Zonk

British Forums Moderator
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  #1591  
Old 04-23-2011, 07:05 PM
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Nice idea!
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  #1592  
Old 04-23-2011, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonk
We are less than six days and counting to the wedding of Prince William of Wales and Catherine Middleton.

For the last couple of months we have been discussing possible titles for the couple. Now its time to vote.

What title will the Queen bestow on William and Catherine?

The options are: Dukes of Clarence, Cambridge, Sussex, Windsor or Kendall. Or the Earl of Something, My choice isn't listed or Nothing!

Enjoy!

Warren, wbenson & Zonk
British Forums Moderator
Zonk, 2 of the colors are the same, is there a chance to change one just so it's easier to see looking at pie chart which title is winning!? :) if not no biggie-
  #1593  
Old 04-23-2011, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
Now, because of what happened with Diana, if they had children, I believe something different and better would be done for her to reflect the fact she's the mother of the future monarch. I do remember reading quite a bit of articles in the wake of Diana's death that more should have been done for her in deference of the fact that William would one day be king, and that his mother shouldn't have just been cast off in the way she was, as it was different than when Andrew and Sarah divorced or when Anne and Mark Philips divorced.
Diana was a unique situation as the mother of a future King and former wife of the heir. At her own choice, Diana chose to relinquish her royal rank as HRH in return for a definitive financial settlement that gave her complete financial security and independence from the royal family.

Had she chosen to remain Her Royal Highness (which The Queen did, in fact, offer to the Princess), she would have had to accept a far less generous lump-sum payment, with the rest paid out over her lifetime. She would also have had to accept a continuation of the arrangement during the separation whereby the Palace would determine what public duties, if any, she would undertake on behalf of the monarch. Diana rejected both conditions.

Despite these choices, The Queen made it clear in a statement from the Palace that Diana would remain a member of the royal family and be granted her former precedence on all state and national occasions. She was also permitted to remain a Princess, retained her royal residence for life and all of her jewels. So, Diana was hardly "cast-off" by the loss of HRH.

When she died, she was given a state funeral with full royal honours as a member of the royal family.
  #1594  
Old 04-23-2011, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by MRSJ View Post
Zonk, 2 of the colors are the same, is there a chance to change one just so it's easier to see looking at pie chart which title is winning!? :) if not no biggie-
I am not sure I can change the color but I will look into it.
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  #1595  
Old 04-23-2011, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
. As for Prince of Wales I would like to see the exact wording of the 1958 LPs but so far the only copy I have been able to view is too small to make out all the words and that could hold the key as to whether or not he would remain as Prince of Wales if he isn't the heir apparent to the throne.

.
Bertie, is this the one you mean? I zoomed as best I could, but my eyes are too tired to make it out right now.
Royal Collection - Letters patent
Thanks for explaining what makes an heir "presumptive." I asked my sister (when we were little) what 'heir presumptive' meant, and she told me it meant the heir had tuberculosis.
  #1596  
Old 04-23-2011, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
If William predeceases both his father and grandmother, but he and Catherine have no children, she would continue be styled as HRH Princess William of Wales, if William was not granted a peerage. She would lose the title if she remarried. If they had children, and William hadn't been granted a peerage, the Queen could give her a title as the mother of the future king or queen, but I don't know. I would assume she'd be granted a life peerage of some kind, to honor her rank as the mother of the future monarch, but I can't recall off the top of my head a situation where that has happened.

If they were to divorce, she'd take on the style of a divorced woman, but not that of a divorced peeress. I believe she'd go back to being Catherine Middleton. Now, because of what happened with Diana, if they had children, I believe something different and better would be done for her to reflect the fact she's the mother of the future monarch. I do remember reading quite a bit of articles in the wake of Diana's death that more should have been done for her in deference of the fact that William would one day be king, and that his mother shouldn't have just been cast off in the way she was, as it was different than when Andrew and Sarah divorced or when Anne and Mark Philips divorced.
Thanks for the answer.

I read somewhere that the Queen offered to resotre Diana's HRH before the funeral but Earl Spencer rejected the offer

I guess in my scenario if William dies before accession with only female offspring-this would also be the first case where there would be a female heir apparent, correct?
  #1597  
Old 04-23-2011, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HRHofNothing

Thanks for the answer.

I read somewhere that the Queen offered to resotre Diana's HRH before the funeral but Earl Spencer rejected the offer

I guess in my scenario if William dies before accession with only female offspring-this would also be the first case where there would be a female heir apparent, correct?
Following that thought, if Prince Charles is King and William predeceases him but has a child would Prince Henry be heir as male son of current King? Or Williams child?
  #1598  
Old 04-23-2011, 09:00 PM
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I have tried to allow for a slight diversion but we are so off topic its amazing.

As previously suggested there are plenty of threads to talk about the titles of dowagers, the line of succession, the titles of Princes Wales, etc. Please have those discussions in the appropriate threads.

Let's get back on the topic for this thread.
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  #1599  
Old 04-23-2011, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
No there isn't. When Friedrich Josias, Prince of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha died in 1998, the Dukedom of Albany and all its subsidiary titles became extinct. He had sons, but they weren't granted permission to marry under the Royal Marriages Act of 1772, so under British law, their marriages are considered void. That means the children from those marriages are considered illegitimate and unable to succeed.

So the title is available for a re-grant if HM chooses to.

I have been doing some research today on this further and as descendents of Caroline Mathilde the youngest child of Frederick Prince of Wales they are exempt from seeking permission under the RMA so they title isn't extinct at all but in abeyance.

Geroge II - Frederick Prince of Wales - Caroline Mathilde - Louise Auguste of Denmark - Christian August II - Frederick VIII - Princess Karoline Mathilde - Princess Victoria Adelaide - Princess Viktoria Adelaide (wife of Prince Charles Edward, Duke of Albany and Duke of Saxe-Coburg Gotha. The current princes are descendents of Charles Edward of course (Queen Vicotria's grandson and the 'Nazi' prince).

All descendents of Caroline Mathilde are exempt as she was a British Princess who married into a foreign royal house.
  #1600  
Old 04-23-2011, 11:11 PM
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I doubt Kate will be styled as Princess Katherine, on Friday, but I'm hoping she will be when William becomes King. This is because, in the interest of gender equality, I hope she becomes Princess Consort, rather than Queen. Nothing has been said about this possibility, yet, but she has expressed affection for Camilla, who will quite likely be styled as Princess Consort, herself. I hope Camilla becomes Princess Camilla, when Charles becomes King, for the same reason. The media wouldn't want to use "Princess Charles/George" or "Princess William", yet to use "The Princess Consort", all the time, would be clumbersome, and on another note, why should a woman be seen as an extension of her husband? Prince Philip has never been Prince Elizabeth!
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