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View Poll Results: What Title will the Queen bestow on William and Catherine?
Duke of Clarence 25 16.45%
Duke of Cambridge 68 44.74%
Duke of Sussex 5 3.29%
Duke of Windsor 8 5.26%
Duke of Kendall 2 1.32%
Earl of Something 8 5.26%
Hey! My choice isn't listed. I think it will be something else. 10 6.58%
Nothing. I think they will remain Prince and Princess William of Wales 26 17.11%
Voters: 152. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1521  
Old 04-21-2011, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Americanskipper View Post
I completely agree. One of those 'unintended consequences' would be what would happen to the titles (POW, Duke of Cornwall, etc.) Charles now has if the throne skipped to William? They would not be merged into the crown. Would he continue to be POW and Duke of Cornwall after William came to the throne? It would create a huge mess! It just won't happen.

I still predict William will be made an earl when he marries. That seems in keeping with recent history. In fact very similar to Edward getting an Earl when he married but promised a dukedom for later after his parents die. William will be made an earl next week, but is of course promised the Duke of Cornwall once Charles comes to the throne.

It keeps the number of Dukes small, while still providing William with a territorial designation (preventing havoc with his eldest's son being called Prince X of Wales, then cease to be Prince X of Wales, and then called Prince X of Wales again). It give Catherine a very nice title so she isn't officially Prince William of Wales, and unofficiallly Princess Catherine.

It also keeps William and Kate's profile low, allowing them to focus on their marriage, family and career for several more years.

Making William an earl has all positive consequences and no negative ones.
Actually Catherine WILL be Princess William no matter what titles Prince William get (or not get). If Prince William get a title, then Catherine's preferred title (at least for Court Circulars and other official publications) will be the feminine form of whatever title Prince William get, but she will still have that "Princess William" title though, just not used much. Same thing with the Duchess of Cornwall-she is also Princess Charles, but that title is almost never used. Just trying to clarify things.

Personally I think because of where Prince William is with respect to the Throne, he'd more likely to get a Dukedom. The difference with Prince Edward was he was further away from the Throne and wanted to keep his family a bit low-key, which Prince William isn't going to. But you never know though.
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  #1522  
Old 04-21-2011, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Americanskipper View Post
I completely agree. One of those 'unintended consequences' would be what would happen to the titles (POW, Duke of Cornwall, etc.) Charles now has if the throne skipped to William? They would not be merged into the crown. Would he continue to be POW and Duke of Cornwall after William came to the throne? It would create a huge mess! It just won't happen.

I still predict William will be made an earl when he marries. That seems in keeping with recent history. In fact very similar to Edward getting an Earl when he married but promised a dukedom for later after his parents die. William will be made an earl next week, but is of course promised the Duke of Cornwall once Charles comes to the throne.

It keeps the number of Dukes small, while still providing William with a territorial designation (preventing havoc with his eldest's son being called Prince X of Wales, then cease to be Prince X of Wales, and then called Prince X of Wales again). It give Catherine a very nice title so she isn't officially Prince William of Wales, and unofficiallly Princess Catherine.

It also keeps William and Kate's profile low, allowing them to focus on their marriage, family and career for several more years.

Making William an earl has all positive consequences and no negative ones.


William hasn't been "promised" the dukedom of Cornwall. It's his by right of birth. That's a far cry from being told you'll get something you otherwise would have no claim to receive. Even if William were to be given an earldom rather than a dukedom, Catherine wouldn't be Princess Catherine officially or unofficially. She'd be HRH Princess William of Wales, Countess of X. She'd be referred to in the court circular as The Countess of X, just like her aunt-in-law. Within her family (Windsors and Middletons), she'd still be called just Kate or Catherine.

She'll be a princess and duchess/countess by marriage, not birth. She's not entitled to the titling and styling of The Princess Royal or William's cousins, the Yorks.
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  #1523  
Old 04-21-2011, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Sister Morphine

William hasn't been "promised" the dukedom of Cornwall. It's his by right of birth. That's a far cry from being told you'll get something you otherwise would have no claim to receive. Even if William were to be given an earldom rather than a dukedom, Catherine wouldn't be Princess Catherine officially or unofficially. She'd be HRH Princess William of Wales, Countess of X. She'd be referred to in the court circular as The Countess of X, just like her aunt-in-law. Within her family (Windsors and Middletons), she'd still be called just Kate or Catherine.

She'll be a princess and duchess/countess by marriage, not birth. She's not entitled to the titling and styling of The Princess Royal or William's cousins, the Yorks.
Dumb question - will Catherine rate a curtesy after the wedding?
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  #1524  
Old 04-21-2011, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgrant

Dumb question - will Catherine rate a curtesy after the wedding?
She should be curtesied too yes but not by those with higher rank (ie Queens, Kings and all CP couples I believe)
  #1525  
Old 04-21-2011, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by mgrant View Post
Dumb question - will Catherine rate a curtesy after the wedding?
Yes, although curtesying is now considered to be optional, even in the presence of The Queen, although all Royal Households still strictly follow protocol.
  #1526  
Old 04-21-2011, 07:29 PM
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Dumb question - will Catherine rate a curtesy after the wedding?

Absolutely. Not because if she doesn't the marriage is null and void or anything, but just because it's tradition, and even The Princess Royal curtsied to her mother after her wedding.
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  #1527  
Old 04-21-2011, 07:45 PM
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http://www.studentnews.cnn.com/TRANS.../09/se.01.html

CNN interview w/ deposed King of Greece about wedding and William
  #1528  
Old 04-21-2011, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Royal_Eagle View Post
Actually Catherine WILL be Princess William no matter what titles Prince William get (or not get). If Prince William get a title, then Catherine's preferred title (at least for Court Circulars and other official publications) will be the feminine form of whatever title Prince William get, but she will still have that "Princess William" title though, just not used much. Same thing with the Duchess of Cornwall-she is also Princess Charles, but that title is almost never used. Just trying to clarify things.

Personally I think because of where Prince William is with respect to the Throne, he'd more likely to get a Dukedom. The difference with Prince Edward was he was further away from the Throne and wanted to keep his family a bit low-key, which Prince William isn't going to. But you never know though.
Sorry, my fault. Saying 'won't officially and commonly be called Princess William' would have been more accurate.
  #1529  
Old 04-21-2011, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
William hasn't been "promised" the dukedom of Cornwall. It's his by right of birth. That's a far cry from being told you'll get something you otherwise would have no claim to receive. Even if William were to be given an earldom rather than a dukedom, Catherine wouldn't be Princess Catherine officially or unofficially. She'd be HRH Princess William of Wales, Countess of X. She'd be referred to in the court circular as The Countess of X, just like her aunt-in-law. Within her family (Windsors and Middletons), she'd still be called just Kate or Catherine.

She'll be a princess and duchess/countess by marriage, not birth. She's not entitled to the titling and styling of The Princess Royal or William's cousins, the Yorks.
Of course! I know that. The situation between William and Edward aren't identical, but they are similar. William has been promised (by tradition and right) the Title 'Duke of Cornwall' upon his father coming to the throne. My point is Edward was named an Earl at his wedding, but knows he will one day in the future become Duke. Likewise, William will be named an Earl at his wedding, but knows he will one day in the future become a Duke.

By creating William an Earl, Kate will officially and unofficially be called Countess. However, if William is not made an earl or duke, then Kate, while officially be called 'Princess William of Wales', but unofficially and commonly called 'Princess Catherine'.

Hence the reason I think they will become an earl and countess.
  #1530  
Old 04-21-2011, 09:41 PM
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A couple of points have been raised about which I would like to comment:

1. I have a copy of a document that was passed around the British High Commission in Canberra in 1954 (my mother had worked there some years earlier and when another friend left that job gave the 'sourvenirs' that were given to the staff to Mum as Mum was more interested than this other friend was) and that said that both Philip and Charles could use the designation 'of Greece and Denmark' until the referendum in Denmark that allowed female inheritance as it also restricted the line of succession to the descendents of Frederick X (I think - Philip's father's uncle anyway) and that as Philip and Charles were descended from Christian IX they were no longer able to use 'of Denmark'. It also said that Philip and Charles could still use 'of Greece' but that Philip had no claim any more to the Greek throne but not that he had actually stopped being a Prince of Greece. As this was the official information given to the British High Commission from BP in the lead up the the royal visit of 1954 I have assumed that these respective bodies know what they are saying.

2. If Charles decided to not take on the responsiblity of King when would he make that decision - if now - then he would no longer be fulfilling the requirements of the LPs for Duke of Cornwall and Rothesay as they both require the holder to be the eldest son of the monarch AND heir apparent. If the decision wasn't made until after the Queen died then they would automatically pass to William as Charles would have become King. As for Prince of Wales I would like to see the exact wording of the 1958 LPs but so far the only copy I have been able to view is too small to make out all the words and that could hold the key as to whether or not he would remain as Prince of Wales if he isn't the heir apparent to the throne.

3. The issue of Catherine's title could be resolved in a number of ways - the Queen could let it be known that she can be referred to as Princess Catherine (what she did with Alice, Louise and James). She could issue LPs creating her Princess Catherine (something I highly doubt as that would mean she would remain as Princess Catherine if they were divorced). She could give William a title. Whatever happens all will be revealed within the next week. Personally I hope that she doesn't give William a title and that Kate is Princess William of Wales but I think that is the least likely option.
  #1531  
Old 04-21-2011, 09:45 PM
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William hasn't been promised any Dukedom. Either he is created a Duke in his own right the morning of his wedding, inherits a Dukedom (Edinburgh) if his father and grandfather predecease The Queen, or becomes one automatically when his grandmother dies by right of being the eldest son of The Sovereign and heir (Cornwall).

So, the reality is William is going to become a Duke one way or another even if his grandmother doesn't create him a Peer with marriage. If his father doesn't survive to be King, William will become The Duke of Edinburgh upon Philip's death. If his father succeeds to the throne, he will become The Duke of Cornwall automatically.
  #1532  
Old 04-21-2011, 10:23 PM
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William isn't guaranteed Cornwall and Rothesay at all. If his father predeceased the Queen then William won't get either of them as he won't be able to fulfil the requirements for those titles.

He would be heir apparent but he also has to be the eldest son of the monarch to be Duke of Cornwall and Duke of Rothesay so it is perfectly possible that the heir to the British throne, at some time in the future, could hold the title of Prince William and no other title - until his grandmother creates him Prince of Wales, which could happen very quickly or could take a long time or not happen at all.

In the normal course of events William will get those two Dukedoms but there is a chance he won't, just as in the normal course of events Edward will be able to be created Duke of Edinburgh but there is a chance it won't be available for him or that he could inherit it directly.
  #1533  
Old 04-21-2011, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Americanskipper View Post
Of course! I know that. The situation between William and Edward aren't identical, but they are similar. William has been promised (by tradition and right) the Title 'Duke of Cornwall' upon his father coming to the throne. My point is Edward was named an Earl at his wedding, but knows he will one day in the future become Duke. Likewise, William will be named an Earl at his wedding, but knows he will one day in the future become a Duke.

By creating William an Earl, Kate will officially and unofficially be called Countess. However, if William is not made an earl or duke, then Kate, while officially be called 'Princess William of Wales', but unofficially and commonly called 'Princess Catherine'.

Hence the reason I think they will become an earl and countess.
It's possible of course, but I don't see this happening. Edward is seventh in line to the throne. His place will only go further down once William, Harry, Beatrice and Eugenie have children. Whether he is called an earl or a duke will make little difference since he will never be in the position to ascend the throne. William on the other hand has no one in his way to ascend the throne after his father. His position is extremely important in the monarchy, just as his first born son will also be. I don't see the Queen allowing the 2nd in line to the throne to be known as a mere Earl.
  #1534  
Old 04-21-2011, 10:55 PM
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I do think it is very possible William will be created an Earl by The Queen. As I said, it is very likely that he will become a Duke automatically under the probable scenarios, so an Earldom may suffice for now.
  #1535  
Old 04-21-2011, 11:10 PM
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Yes, although curtesying is now considered to be optional, even in the presence of The Queen, although all Royal Households still strictly follow protocol.

I seem to remember a wave of curtseys attending the Prince and Princess of Wales up the aisle as they left the altar after their wedding...or am I just hallucinating? Or remembering something from a TV movie?
  #1536  
Old 04-21-2011, 11:32 PM
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From what I remember both Charles and Diana (as well as Anne/Mark, Andrew/Sarah, Edward/Sophie, and Charles/Camilla) curtsied to the Queen after their marriage. I don't recall them curtseying to anyone else during the actual ceremony.
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  #1537  
Old 04-22-2011, 12:42 AM
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From what I remember both Charles and Diana (as well as Anne/Mark, Andrew/Sarah, Edward/Sophie, and Charles/Camilla) curtsied to the Queen after their marriage. I don't recall them curtseying to anyone else during the actual ceremony.

Except for the Anne/Mark one my memory is the same - after the were actually married and had signed the registry and turned to go back down the aisle they all curtesied to the Queen but others curtesied or bowed to them as they exited the churches.

The reason I don't know about Anne/Mark was that our boarding school mistress sent us to bed shortly after she entered the Abbey so I wasn't able to see the end of the ceremony.
  #1538  
Old 04-22-2011, 08:20 AM
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I do think it is very possible William will be created an Earl by The Queen. As I said, it is very likely that he will become a Duke automatically under the probable scenarios, so an Earldom may suffice for now.
I thought he automatically inherits is father's current titles (except The Prince of Wales) the instant the Queen passes away and Charles becomes King.

In those list of titles he will become Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Carrick and Baron of Renfrew, Lord of the Isles, Prince and Great Steward of Scottland. Considering he will inherit 2 ducal titles, one Earl title and one Baron title, what would be the point of granting another Ducal or Earldom title n his wedding day? Unlike his brother and uncles who will more than likely carry the title bestowed on their wedding day for life (with the exception of perhaps Edward), William will have multiple titles he will inherit from his father automatically when the Queen passes. He may also be invested as the Prince of Wales, however we shall see.

I personally would prefer that he does not take another title and Catherine is allowed to be styled HRH Princess Catherine of Wales rather than HRH Princess William of Wales. That leaves more options for Harry when he marries since whichever title he is given will more than likely be for life.
  #1539  
Old 04-22-2011, 08:46 AM
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I thought he automatically inherits is father's current titles (except The Prince of Wales) the instant the Queen passes away and Charles becomes King.

In those list of titles he will become Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Carrick and Baron of Renfrew, Lord of the Isles, Prince and Great Steward of Scottland. Considering he will inherit 2 ducal titles, one Earl title and one Baron title, what would be the point of granting another Ducal or Earldom title n his wedding day? Unlike his brother and uncles who will more than likely carry the title bestowed on their wedding day for life (with the exception of perhaps Edward), William will have multiple titles he will inherit from his father automatically when the Queen passes. He may also be invested as the Prince of Wales, however we shall see.

I personally would prefer that he does not take another title and Catherine is allowed to be styled HRH Princess Catherine of Wales rather than HRH Princess William of Wales. That leaves more options for Harry when he marries since whichever title he is given will more than likely be for life.

William will not become Duke of Cornwall and Rothesay if Charles predeceases his mother so they aren't a given. They aren't inheritable in the normal manner of titles. Charles didn't inherit them from either of his parents. The previous holder of both those titles was still very much alive - and using another title - when Charles assumed them. He became Duke of Cornwall and Duke of Rothesay at the exact instant his mother became Queen because he met the two requirements of those two Dukedoms - that he is both the eldest living son of the monarch AND the heir apparent. If Charles dies before his mother William will never be Duke of Cornwall or Duke of Rothesay as he won't be the eldest son of the monarch (the same thing that happened with George III - heir apparent but never Duke of Cornwall/Rothesay even though his father held both titles - George didn't inherit them when his father died because he wasn't the eldest son of the monarch).

The other possibility is that he could inherit the Edinburgh title at some point as well e.g. Charles dies, Philip dies then William will be Duke of Edinburgh until his own accession.

I hope the Queen doesn't give him a title but also I hope that Kate is styled Princess William. It distinguishes the Princesses born from those who marry in and I like that idea personally.

Of coures if Charles does become King then William will automatically become Duke of Cornwall and Duke of Rothesay as he would be the eldest son of the monarch and the heir apparent - but not through inheritance.

George V was created Duke of York after it was clear that he was going to be King and then in 1901 became Cornwall etc. He was in the same position as William today at the time he was created Duke of York - the eldest son of the Prince of Wales. As the Queen loved George V so much it is possible that she could use his titles as a precedent and thus allow him to have three dukedoms. If it was good enough for her grandfather the it should be good enough for her grandson.
  #1540  
Old 04-22-2011, 09:06 AM
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William will not become Duke of Cornwall and Rothesay if Charles predeceases his mother so they aren't a given. They aren't inheritable in the normal manner of titles. Charles didn't inherit them from either of his parents. The previous holder of both those titles was still very much alive - and using another title - when Charles assumed them. He became Duke of Cornwall and Duke of Rothesay at the exact instant his mother became Queen because he met the two requirements of those two Dukedoms - that he is both the eldest living son of the monarch AND the heir apparent. If Charles dies before his mother William will never be Duke of Cornwall or Duke of Rothesay as he won't be the eldest son of the monarch (the same thing that happened with George III - heir apparent but never Duke of Cornwall/Rothesay even though his father held both titles - George didn't inherit them when his father died because he wasn't the eldest son of the monarch).

The other possibility is that he could inherit the Edinburgh title at some point as well e.g. Charles dies, Philip dies then William will be Duke of Edinburgh until his own accession.

I hope the Queen doesn't give him a title but also I hope that Kate is styled Princess William. It distinguishes the Princesses born from those who marry in and I like that idea personally.

Of coures if Charles does become King then William will automatically become Duke of Cornwall and Duke of Rothesay as he would be the eldest son of the monarch and the heir apparent - but not through inheritance.
Understood, but it's unlikely that The Queen will outlive Prince Charles. In the unlikely event this happened, then William of course would ascend the throne with whatever titles he has at that time since it's unlikely the Queen would bestow any other titles in the interim.

I am surprised that you support Catherine being styled as Princess William since you seem supportive of women being seen as their own person and not just an extension of their mates. Although I understand your point in regards to Princesses of birth vs. Princesses by marriage I don't see anyone mistaking Catherine as being a born Princess if she were to be styled Princess Catherine. Everyone knows her origins and that she is entering this marriage without a title or noble heritage of her own. Considering the media attention she has received for years and will only get more intense from here on out, it would be much less complicated for her to be allowed that style. The world media will refer to her in that manner anyway. The syle HRH Princess William, will require endless explanations and corrections to the billions of people who don't understand how the British Monarchy works. I certainly didn't know until I came to this board.
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