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View Poll Results: What Title will the Queen bestow on William and Catherine?
Duke of Clarence 25 16.45%
Duke of Cambridge 68 44.74%
Duke of Sussex 5 3.29%
Duke of Windsor 8 5.26%
Duke of Kendall 2 1.32%
Earl of Something 8 5.26%
Hey! My choice isn't listed. I think it will be something else. 10 6.58%
Nothing. I think they will remain Prince and Princess William of Wales 26 17.11%
Voters: 152. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1501  
Old 04-21-2011, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by rawsilk View Post
Well, technically speaking, Elizabeth II did not create "the Duke of York", of course! The title had been around for centuries. She simply granted it to Andrew.

rawsilk
AFAIK the correct term is "creation" - titles are counted after their "creations" - so when a former duke of York died heirless, the title became extinct and on regranting the title, a new "creation" started. Thus eg Edward won't be the "third" DoE when his brother Charles creates him such, but the first of a new creation because the creation for Prince Philip will end, when Charles' title as the second Suke of Edinburgh of that creation merges with the Crown.
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  #1502  
Old 04-21-2011, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by MRSJ View Post
I believe so and no matter what as it stands now as the oldest son of the heir then William and Kate's son will be a Prince for sure (once Charles is King I mean and if he makes no changes to titles)......
I thought so

Whoever wrote that William's and Katherine's daughter "won't be Royal" should have done their research She won't be born Royal, if princely status is the defining factor, but she will eventually become a Princess
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  #1503  
Old 04-21-2011, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rawsilk View Post
I think there is some confusion here over where one is in the line of succession-i.e. whether the line of succession should follow the male line or not-and whether one is "royal". Some people want the line of succession to ensure that a female child born to Prince William and Catherine would have the first place behind William in the line of succession. That is not the same thing as being, "royal". Any child born to Prince William and Catherine would be a member of the royal family.

rawsilk
There is no confusion.

The term royal family is informal and has no legal definition. The term royal is specified by the letters patent issued by King George V. According to the letters patent, children of a monarch, grandchildren of a monarch via sons, and the oldest son of the heir to the Prince of Wales are automatically royal. No one else is royal unless the monarch specifically issues new letters patent.

For instance King George VI issued letters patent in October 1948 that said that any children born to Princess Elizabeth would be royal. He did that because he was already 53 years old and he did not expect to have a son. But Charles and Anne were grandchildren of a daughter and did not automatically become royal.

Now Charles and Anne would have become royal automatically as soon as their grandfather died. In the same way Prince William's daughter would become royal automatically as soon as Queen Elizabeth II dies. But we assume that, like Charles and Anne, she will be made royal by the issuing of "letters patent".

BACKSTORY
In 1917, there were roughly 50 British royals including princesses who were using the title because they were married to British princes. They were royal because of letters patent issued by Queen Victoria which confirmed the traditional German rules for determining who was royal. Her grandson was both concerned about the number of royals, and the fact that at least 10 British Royals were Germans who grew up in that country and were now fighting a war with the UK. He severely restricted the relatives of the monarch who would become automatically royal.

It should be noted that Ernst August V, Prince of Hanover, Duke of Brunswick(age 57) and the estranged husband of Princess of Caroline still claims to be a Prince of Great Britain and Ireland. Just before WWI his father was granted made a British Prince (as a baby). In issuing the titles deprivation act, the families British Dukedome was revoked but their style as British princes was not formally addressed. The British government does not recognize him as a prince however, but insists that he re-apply for this title.

Today, The British government believes there are only 15 people who are royal because of being born to the royal blood. In addition there are 5 women who assume the style of their husband, and Prince Phillip. The ones born are The Queen, four of her cousins, her four children, and six of her eight grandchildren. There are 3 wives to her male cousins, 2 wives of her sons, plus Prince Phillip. Prince Phillip does not take the style of his wife, but was made a Prince by his wife by issuing of letters patent during her fifth year as monarch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rawsilk View Post
Well, technically speaking, Elizabeth II did not create "the Duke of York", of course! The title had been around for centuries. She simply granted it to Andrew.
In the language of titles you either inherit your title from your father or it is created. If it is a traditional title that is available again then it is re-created. The Duke of York title is famous for the seeming inability to pass it down from father to son. It is constantly being re-created. In the case of Prince Andrew he has no sons to inherit his title. When he dies the title of DOY will be re-created in someone new (probably the second son of Prince William).
  #1504  
Old 04-21-2011, 09:57 AM
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Very good post there.

I somehoew doubt the Queen would issue letters patent for Catherine to be styled HRH Princess Catherine unless William strenuously objects to receivibg a dukedom.

It would be a nice modern touch if HM the Queen did so, but it is doubtful she would.
  #1505  
Old 04-21-2011, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conorius View Post
Very good post there.

I somehoew doubt the Queen would issue letters patent for Catherine to be styled HRH Princess Catherine unless William strenuously objects to receivibg a dukedom.

It would be a nice modern touch if HM the Queen did so, but it is doubtful she would.
I am not sure of the process, but with the wedding only 8 days away wouldn't she have already issued the letters patent if that was the case? And wouldn't this be a matter of public record? As I said, I have no idea how all this works, but I would imagine that if they announce the titles on the day of the wedding this would already be determined and approved by those involved.
  #1506  
Old 04-21-2011, 10:35 AM
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I am sure there is a chance that she might have done it....they are just waiting until we get closer to the wedding to officially announce it.
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  #1507  
Old 04-21-2011, 11:14 AM
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What makes you all think it is an absolute impossibilty that the Queen will not grant Kate the title of Princess Catherine? First of all, the Queen can do as she wishes in this regard. And from what I have read in articles, Prince William had requested that he not be given a duke title and that Kate be named Princess Catherine when they are married. I am sure he knows it not tradition and if he made this I am sure he pleaded his case to the queen. I have a feeling Kate will become, HRH Princess Catherine of Wales on April 29th. And what if Prince William really wants this for his bride, the woman he loves deeply? Has anyone even thought of that? Sometimes you have move forward from tradition, and be modern. Being HRH, Princess Catherine of Wales gives her own identity of sorts and IF William has made this request, that's reason he made it. He loves his wife to be and he wants this FOR HER. And good for him if that is the case!

I think the queen just might surprise some of you this time.
  #1508  
Old 04-21-2011, 11:25 AM
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I wonder about the offspring from Prince Philips sons being Danish Royals?

When Philip gave up his titles as a prince of Greece and Denmark, I know he asked the Greek monarch for permission. But did he ask the Danish king as well? Can it be that Philip's sons and their male-line offspring could still be claim to be Danish princes, even if not in line to the Danish throne?

Then Williams younger childre would be prince/princess of (til) Denmark even though they are not (yet) prince/ss of the UK?
  #1509  
Old 04-21-2011, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by American Observer7 View Post
What makes you all think it is an absolute impossibilty that the Queen will not grant Kate the title of Princess Catherine? First of all, the Queen can do as she wishes in this regard. And from what I have read in articles, Prince William had requested that he not be given a duke title and that Kate be named Princess Catherine when they are married. I am sure he knows it not tradition and if he made this I am sure he pleaded his case to the queen. I have a feeling Kate will become, HRH Princess Catherine of Wales on April 29th. And what if Prince William really wants this for his bride, the woman he loves deeply? Has anyone even thought of that? Sometimes you have move forward from tradition, and be modern. Being HRH, Princess Catherine of Wales gives her own identity of sorts and IF William has made this request, that's reason he made it. He loves his wife to be and he wants this FOR HER. And good for him if that is the case!

I think the queen just might surprise some of you this time.
Anything is possible at this point, but based on our experiences what is reported in the press isn't always the truth. We won't know for sure until April 29th (maybe a day earlier).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
I wonder about the offspring from Prince Philips sons being Danish Royals?

When Philip gave up his titles as a prince of Greece and Denmark, I know he asked the Greek monarch for permission. But did he ask the Danish king as well? Can it be that Philip's sons and their male-line offspring could still be claim to be Danish princes, even if not in line to the Danish throne?

Then Williams younger childre would be prince/princess of (til) Denmark even though they are not (yet) prince/ss of the UK?
I don't believe that is an option. Phillip renounced his rights to the Greek throne (as you mentioned) and wasn't a serious contender for the Danish throne. It could be like Princess Benedikte of Denmark...her children do not carry Prince of Denmark simply because they weren't raised in Denmark. I believe that was the decision of King Frederik of Denmark.

Which is in stark contrast to the children of her sister, Queen Anne Marie of Greece who are known as Princess Alexia of Greece and Denmark, Princess Theodora of Greece and Denmark, etc.
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  #1510  
Old 04-21-2011, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by American Observer7 View Post
What makes you all think it is an absolute impossibilty that the Queen will not grant Kate the title of Princess Catherine? First of all, the Queen can do as she wishes in this regard. And from what I have read in articles, Prince William had request that he not be given a duke title and that Kate be named Princess Catherine when they are married. I am sure he knows it not tradition and if he made this I am sure he pleaded his case to the queen. I have a feeling Kate will become, HRH Princess Catherine of Wales on April 29th. And what if Prince William really wants this for his bride, the woman he loves deeply? Has anyone even thought of that? Sometimes you have move forward from tradition, and be modern. Being HRH, Princess Catherine of Wales gives her own identity of sorts and IF William has made this request, that's reason he made it. He loves his wife to be and he wants this FOR HER. And good for him if that is the case.
I wouldn't say "absolutely impossibility", but it is considered very unlikely, as the Queen is very traditional (although certainly open to considering new ideas). The main reason people think this won't happens is it would be unfair to other Princesses who aren't royal by blood, which is what "Princess X" where X is their first name implies. Yes, the Queen has granted permission for 1 or 2 Princesses to use their own name instead of their husband's names, but that was mostly as reward for many years of Royal duties, which Catherine hasn't really started doing (but at least she's making a real good start so far).

So even granting permission for her to be styled "Princess Catherine", never mind making her an actual Princess of the UK, etc, is a relative huge step compared to what she has done in the past for other Princesses.

Having said all the above, I'm expecting to be surprised by something, maybe even by this.
  #1511  
Old 04-21-2011, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
I don't believe that is an option. Phillip renounced his rights to the Greek throne (as you mentioned) and wasn't a serious contender for the Danish throne. It could be like Princess Benedikte of Denmark...her children do not carry Prince of Denmark simply because they weren't raised in Denmark. I believe that was the decision of King Frederik of Denmark.

Which is in stark contrast to the children of her sister, Queen Anne Marie of Greece who are known as Princess Alexia of Greece and Denmark, Princess Theodora of Greece and Denmark, etc.
But the children of Queen Anne are male-line descendants of a Danish king through their father Constantine of Greece and Denmark, which Benediktes children aren't. Charles and William (among the other male-line descendants of Prince Philip) are male-line descendants of a Danish king, thus should be able to claim a Danish princely title - the version for prince/sses without a right to the succession. Or not? Has there been an act of either Danish king or parliament to deprive Philip of his Danish title? And if not, could Charles grandchildren claim it when they have not yet a right to a British Royal title and style?

I know that British subjects cannot use a foreign Royal title in Britain without the souverains consent. But they can hold it like Lady Katherine Brandram, who was "Lady Katherine" in Britain but HRH Princess Katherine of Greece and Denmark when abroad.
  #1512  
Old 04-21-2011, 11:42 AM
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I would love to be surprised. As far as I know for the Queen to issue Letters patent she has to submit it to the Privy Council for notification, but that can be conducted as quickly as a minute apparently. And she has been known to surprise us when she accedes to the wishes of her family.

It was not anticipated about Prince Edward asking to be made Earl of Wessex and then Duke of Edinburgh after his fathers death. But because he is the Queens favourite child, she did it. Everyone suspected until the day before the wedding he would be named Duke of Cambridge or Sussex.
  #1513  
Old 04-21-2011, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conorius View Post
I would love to be surprised. As far as I know for the Queen to issue Letters patent she has to submit it to the Privy Council for notification, but that can be conducted as quickly as a minute apparently. And she has been known to surprise us when she accedes to the wishes of her family.

It was not anticipated about Prince Edward asking to be made Earl of Wessex and then Duke of Edinburgh after his fathers death. But because he is the Queens favourite child, she did it. Everyone suspected until the day before the wedding he would be named Duke of Cambridge or Sussex.

There is no proof anywhere that Edward is the Queen's favorite child. He requested an earldom because he wanted to shield his children somewhat, from the duties and pressures that come from bearing a royal title, much like their cousins the Wales' and the Yorks'. They are still legally HRH Prince/Princess, but they are being styled as the children of an earl, so that they have a more low-key upbringing. Thus far it's obviously worked as we know very little about either Louise or her brother.

Also, Edward didn't ask to be made Duke of Edinburgh upon his father's death. No one actually knows how that determination came to be, but what is believed is that when Philip dies and his title reverts to the crown, once Charles is King, he will re-grant that title for Edward. No one knows when exactly during his reign it will happen, it may not even happen until William is King.
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  #1514  
Old 04-21-2011, 12:02 PM
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Nick Watt, the Royal Wedding correspondent for ABC News (in the US) is predicting William will be created Duke of Cambridge because the Queen is scheduled to visit Cambridge University two days before the wedding. This is his personal prediction and not based on any sources from the royal family or elsewhere.
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  #1515  
Old 04-21-2011, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
But the children of Queen Anne are male-line descendants of a Danish king through their father Constantine of Greece and Denmark, which Benediktes children aren't. Charles and William (among the other male-line descendants of Prince Philip) are male-line descendants of a Danish king, thus should be able to claim a Danish princely title - the version for prince/sses without a right to the succession. Or not? Has there been an act of either Danish king or parliament to deprive Philip of his Danish title? And if not, could Charles grandchildren claim it when they have not yet a right to a British Royal title and style?

I know that British subjects cannot use a foreign Royal title in Britain without the souverains consent. But they can hold it like Lady Katherine Brandram, who was "Lady Katherine" in Britain but HRH Princess Katherine of Greece and Denmark when abroad.
Not to gett TOO off topic but the children of Anne Marie and Constantine are Princess of Greece and Denmark because of Anne Marie and Constantine. As a male-line descendant of Christian IX of Denmark he retains his title as Prince of Denmark, although constitutional changes removed the Greek cadet branch from the line of Danish succession.

In regards to Phillip, according to Wikipedia he denounced both of his titles so I guess thats why his offspring don't use the title of Denmark and since he also descended from the Greed cadet Branch they wouldn't have been in succession as well.
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  #1516  
Old 04-21-2011, 12:26 PM
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To Conorious's comment of Pr. Edward being the queen's favorite child: I have seen the same thing written a number of times about Pr. Andrew. Guess we'll never know for certain.
  #1517  
Old 04-21-2011, 12:54 PM
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The only thing I hope is changed is so that William's children will be able to use the titles Prince/Princess. If everything happens as plan, the first one will be the Head of state. More than fair, IMO, to be born with the title Prince/Princess xxx of xxx. And not restrict only to a 1st son.
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  #1518  
Old 04-21-2011, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
In regards to Phillip, according to Wikipedia he denounced both of his titles so I guess thats why his offspring don't use the title of Denmark and since he also descended from the Greed cadet Branch they wouldn't have been in succession as well.
That's what I found on the net:

"Since there isn't any documentary proof showing Prince Philip renounced his titles or his rights these events did not occur. Their argument rests on the fact that no one has been able to cite the text of the renunciation, the date it was executed, the date it became effective, or even the clause in the House laws of the Royal House of Greece permitting a Prince to renounce."

From: Did Prince Philip renounce his Greek titles and his succession rights to the Greek throne before his marriage to HRH Princess Elizabeth?

And that's only about Greece...
  #1519  
Old 04-21-2011, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Royal_Eagle View Post
There is almost no chance of Prince William "skipping" Prince Charles--it would take an Act of Parliament and is such a huge step to skip generation that it may cause unintended consequences. For one, it'd set a dangerous precedent where it'd become a "popularity" contest everytime there is a change of the Crown. If Prince Charles isn't fit to take on the duties once he becomes King, then Prince William will probably become the Regent until his Dad pass away. The main idea of the monarchy is to provide a stable and predictable Head of State, especially the transition part.

In any case, Prince Charles apparently take a very good care of himself and probably has the same long life genes that his parents and his grandmother has, as well as improving medical care, so he'll probably live long enough to ascend to the Throne while still sharp.

JMHO though....

I completely agree. One of those 'unintended consequences' would be what would happen to the titles (POW, Duke of Cornwall, etc.) Charles now has if the throne skipped to William? They would not be merged into the crown. Would he continue to be POW and Duke of Cornwall after William came to the throne? It would create a huge mess! It just won't happen.

I still predict William will be made an earl when he marries. That seems in keeping with recent history. In fact very similar to Edward getting an Earl when he married but promised a dukedom for later after his parents die. William will be made an earl next week, but is of course promised the Duke of Cornwall once Charles comes to the throne.

It keeps the number of Dukes small, while still providing William with a territorial designation (preventing havoc with his eldest's son being called Prince X of Wales, then cease to be Prince X of Wales, and then called Prince X of Wales again). It give Catherine a very nice title so she isn't officially Prince William of Wales, and unofficiallly Princess Catherine.

It also keeps William and Kate's profile low, allowing them to focus on their marriage, family and career for several more years.

Making William an earl has all positive consequences and no negative ones.
  #1520  
Old 04-21-2011, 02:37 PM
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I somehoew doubt the Queen would issue letters patent for Catherine to be styled HRH Princess Catherine unless William strenuously objects to receivibg a dukedom.

It would be a nice modern touch if HM the Queen did so, but it is doubtful she would.
The Queen does not need to issue Letters Patent to allow Catherine the style of "Princess Catherine", as she automatically becomes a Princess of the UK with her marriage. She would simply be permitting her to use a style not usually accorded to the wife of a son or male-line grandson of The Sovereign.

While there is certainly precedent for permitting it (HRH Alice, Dowager Duchess of Gloucester), there is no particular reason to do so at this time. It makes sense that William, as the heir to the heir, will be created a Peer, which may be an Earldom for now, given that he will become The Duke of Cornwall automatically in time. So, Catherine would become HRH Princess William, Countess of X, using the title of HRH The Countess of X.
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