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View Poll Results: What Title will the Queen bestow on William and Catherine?
Duke of Clarence 25 16.45%
Duke of Cambridge 68 44.74%
Duke of Sussex 5 3.29%
Duke of Windsor 8 5.26%
Duke of Kendall 2 1.32%
Earl of Something 8 5.26%
Hey! My choice isn't listed. I think it will be something else. 10 6.58%
Nothing. I think they will remain Prince and Princess William of Wales 26 17.11%
Voters: 152. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1401  
Old 04-18-2011, 06:34 AM
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The point seems to have been made a few times that the formal title doesn't matter, general usage will make the error of referring to the lady as "Princess Catherine" regardless.

With the obvious exception of Diana, I don't actually recall a precedent to suggest that this will be the case.

While Sarah Ferguson was married to the Duke of York she was referred to either by her christian name (which wasn't wrong) or as the Duchess of York (which was correct.)

The same seems to hold for the present Countess of Wessex. I don't believe I've ever heard anyone refer to her as "Princess Sophie" even though her husband continues to be referred to as Prince Edward.

Similar for the present Duchesses of Gloucester & Kent (although there's probably somewhat diminished consciousness that they hold princessly status from their husbands.)

A royal dukedom (or earldom) actually seems to be just the ticket to preventing the error being made!
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  #1402  
Old 04-18-2011, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacomartin View Post
Sister Morphine is taking the historically accurate approach to the question. She's researched the facts. If 29 women married a British prince since the widespread adoption of the title with the House of Hanover (and none were made into princess in her own right) then why should Catherine be different? The 30th marriage was that of Wallis Simpson who should technically have been a princess, but was never referred to as such.

I am trying to hypothesize how the attitude toward titles is changing
1) In 1972 the 26 year old Birgitte Eva van Deurs marries Prince Richard, the first British Prince in history to marry that is not also a Duke. He is beginning his career as an architect and she works as well. Their plans for a private life are changed as his brother dies 6 weeks later, and his father only 2 years after that. The Duke of Windsor died just weeks before his marriage. With these three deaths Richard unexpectedly goes from a relatively minor Prince to becoming the most senior exclusively-male-line male in the House of Windsor, and the Duke of Gloucester. His career ends as prepare for a life of royal duties.
2) In 1973 Princess Anne marries and refuses her mother's offer for a title for her husband knowing that her children will have no title.
3) In 1974 the newly widowed Duchess of Gloucester dislikes her new style as "Dowager Duchess of Gloucester" and asks to violate tradition and be styled "Princess Alice". The Queen grants permission, even though there is already another "Princess Alice" who is of royal blood. The queen does not issue letters patent.
4) In 1978 Prince Michael becomes the second British Prince in history to marry that is not a Duke. His wife retains the style of Princess Michael
5) In 1999 Prince Edward becomes the third British Prince in history to marry that is not a Duke. The Queen takes the unique stance of making him an Earl, and the queen requesting that her successor make him a Duke after the death of both of his parents.

So now history tells us that Prince William will be made a Duke the day before his marriage, and Catherine will become a Duchess. But in the queen's entire reign only a single dukedome has been created (for Prince Andrew), and only 8 Dukes are created in the history of the UK.

Of the following choices:
(A) Make William a Duke of whatever, which will vanish in importance when he becomes Duke of Cornwall but will be carried down his male line for possibly hundreds of years. Yet the only real reason for this title is so that Catherine will have a non-male centered style,
(B) Have Catherine adopt the title of HRH Prince William until Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Charles die,
(C) Make Catherine a princess in her own right.


I think that choice (C) is more consistent with the changing attitudes, and the desire not to create new Dukedoms for Richard, Michael, and Edward.

Great summary. Thanks.

I still think (D) is the most likely scenario: Make William an Earl and Catherine becomes a Countess.
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  #1403  
Old 04-18-2011, 07:19 AM
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Second son of a duke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Richard and Michael weren't created dukes because they were the second sons of dukes and actually in line for those dukedoms and Richard of course ended up as the Duke.
Are you saying that the second son of a Duke cannot be made a different Duke?

What about Frederick, Prince of Wales and the Duke of Cornwall and Edinburgh? He had four sons, and they were all created different Dukes.

1) George III, King of the United Kingdom (Also The Duke of Edinburgh for the 9 years between his father's death and his grandfather's death)
2) Prince Edward, Duke of York
3) Prince William, Duke of Gloucester
4) Prince Henry, Duke of Cumberland
  #1404  
Old 04-18-2011, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Americanskipper View Post
Great summary. Thanks. I still think (D) is the most likely scenario: Make William an Earl and Catherine becomes a Countess.
Thank you. I put the list together a while ago because I was trying to figure out why there were no woman in history who had "Princess male-firstname" as their primary title. It turns out that prior to 1970 every married Prince was first a duke (although the custom of naming them a duke just prior to their wedding is relatively recent).

I should have listed giving William a lesser title like Earl, Marquis, Viscount, or Baron. I rejected the idea because I thought that the public would perceive it as a trial run for Catherine, that she would only get the major title if the marriage lasted.

I figured that there was little point in any title lower than Duke since, as Princess William, she could always go by Lady Catherine by default. If she is speaking in America, they won't care because it will remind people of "Lady Di". It would be less awkward in an interview. If she is speaking, she could be introduced as "Her Royal Highness Princess William of Wales", referred to in person as "Your Royal Highness" the first time and then throughout the interview they would call her "Lady Catherine" instead of "ma'am".
  #1405  
Old 04-18-2011, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacomartin View Post
Are you saying that the second son of a Duke cannot be made a different Duke?

What about Frederick, Prince of Wales and the Duke of Cornwall and Edinburgh? He had four sons, and they were all created different Dukes.

1) George III, King of the United Kingdom (Also The Duke of Edinburgh for the 9 years between his father's death and his grandfather's death)
2) Prince Edward, Duke of York
3) Prince William, Duke of Gloucester
4) Prince Henry, Duke of Cumberland
However Frederick was the heir to the throne when he died and was expected to be King so his sons would have been the sons of the king. As a result they were given titles that took account of that fact. They were also the brothers of a King and there was no title to pass to any of them as the Edinburgh title merged with the Crown on the accession of their brother.

It is not normal to give a younger son of a second generation Duke a title in their own right - unless they do something to earn it such as the sons of the 1st Earl of Mornington - the 3rd of whom was created Duke of Wellington and the 4th a Baron in his own right.

With royal sons of kings they are created dukes but in the second generation their younger sons don't get titles. It is also interesting to note that it is rare for a younger son with a Dukedom to have multiple sons and thus have this problem arise.
  #1406  
Old 04-18-2011, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
With royal sons of kings they are created dukes but in the second generation their younger sons don't get titles. It is also interesting to note that it is rare for a younger son with a Dukedom to have multiple sons and thus have this problem arise.
You are correct about it being rare. I could not find one single case of a prince prior to 1970 that was about to get married that was not a Duke. There are, of course, many Princes who died young and were never made Dukes.
  #1407  
Old 04-18-2011, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacomartin


I figured that there was little point in any title lower than Duke since, as Princess William, she could always go by Lady Catherine by default. If she is speaking in America, they won't care because it will remind people of "Lady Di". It would be less awkward in an interview. If she is speaking, she could be introduced as "Her Royal Highness Princess William of Wales", referred to in person as "Your Royal Highness" the first time and then throughout the interview they would call her "Lady Catherine" instead of "ma'am".
Would she be able to be called Lady Catherine? The US press called Diana Lady Di because before her marriage she was Lady Diana Spencer but officially here she was Princesss Diana or the Princess of Wales- the press did not just pull Lady Di from thin air but to call Kate Lady Catherine would be pulling it from thin air so I don't think anyone would call her Lady Catherine but instead Kate Middleton or Princess Kate/Catherine.... I'm aware all are the wrong titles but the princess Kate is so much more likely in my opinion then Lady Catherine .....hence why I'd like her to become Countess of X or Duchess of Y.....
  #1408  
Old 04-18-2011, 08:57 AM
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Here, the press already uses the Princess Catherine thing to mention how she would be called after the wedding. I always catch myself mentally correcting the TV.[crazy, I know]
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  #1409  
Old 04-18-2011, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRSJ View Post
Would she be able to be called Lady Catherine? The US press called Diana Lady Di because before her marriage she was Lady Diana Spencer but officially here she was Princesss Diana or the Princess of Wales- the press did not just pull Lady Di from thin air but to call Kate Lady Catherine would be pulling it from thin air so I don't think anyone would call her Lady Catherine but instead Kate Middleton or Princess Kate/Catherine.... I'm aware all are the wrong titles but the princess Kate is so much more likely in my opinion then Lady Catherine .....hence why I'd like her to become Countess of X or Duchess of Y.....

No, she wouldn't be called Lady Catherine. She'd be afforded that courtesy if she married a knight, a non-royal duke, an earl or some other rank as such (Viscount, Baron, etc.) or was the daughter of any of those men. Since she's not any of those things, she won't be called Lady Catherine. Diana Spencer was rightly called "Lady Di" because she was the daughter of an earl, the same as the daughter of the Earl of Wessex is styled "Lady Louise".

So Catherine, regardless of whether William is given a dukedom or an earldom or not, will be HRH with either Princess or Duchess in her title. Not Lady.
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  #1410  
Old 04-18-2011, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacomartin View Post
If she is speaking, she could be introduced as "Her Royal Highness Princess William of Wales", referred to in person as "Your Royal Highness" the first time and then throughout the interview they would call her "Lady Catherine" instead of "ma'am".

Calling her "Lady Catherine" would be wrong. She's not going to be a Lady in the titular sense. It would be dead embarrassing for an interviewer to call her that; it would look like the person didn't do their homework.

She's addressed as "your royal highness" and then anytime throughout the interview it would be "ma'am" or if it's been written out beforehand, she could be addressed by her first name, if she has no problem with that.
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  #1411  
Old 04-18-2011, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purple_Lulu View Post
The point seems to have been made a few times that the formal title doesn't matter, general usage will make the error of referring to the lady as "Princess Catherine" regardless.

With the obvious exception of Diana, I don't actually recall a precedent to suggest that this will be the case.

While Sarah Ferguson was married to the Duke of York she was referred to either by her christian name (which wasn't wrong) or as the Duchess of York (which was correct.)

The same seems to hold for the present Countess of Wessex. I don't believe I've ever heard anyone refer to her as "Princess Sophie" even though her husband continues to be referred to as Prince Edward.

Similar for the present Duchesses of Gloucester & Kent (although there's probably somewhat diminished consciousness that they hold princessly status from their husbands.)

A royal dukedom (or earldom) actually seems to be just the ticket to preventing the error being made!

Not sure I understand what you mean by a royal dukedom or earldom being the ticket. William could get three royal dukedoms on his wedding day and I can guarantee you, people will still call her Princess Catherine, rather than The Duchess of X, Y, and Z. The Earl and Countess of Wessex are rather low-key as far as senior members of the BRF go, and so it's not surprising to me that there aren't loads of articles and discussions referring to the Countess incorrectly as "Princess Sophie". Catherine on the other hand, will not be low-key. She's the future Queen.
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  #1412  
Old 04-18-2011, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
No, she wouldn't be called Lady Catherine. She'd be afforded that courtesy if she married a knight, ...
One tiny thing. I believe if she married a knight she'd not be "Lady Catherine" but "Lady (Surname)".

So if she married Sir Sean Connery, she'd be Lady Connery, not Lady Catherine or Lady Catherine Connery.

I always enjoy your posts Sister; I've learned a lot. Thanks!
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  #1413  
Old 04-18-2011, 10:33 AM
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Duh. I knew that, I just answered a question about that somewhere else. Brain fart for me.
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  #1414  
Old 04-18-2011, 10:34 AM
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I think as long as she is titled HRH Princess William, she'll be Princess Kate/Catherine but if she's Duchess of X most plp will probably go with it.... Of course right after the wedding many will probably call her Princess Kate just at first I think plus here is US I believe they will always call her that because almost every publication I've read or seen or watched is already calling her that......

Now if I were marrying a Prince, at least in my own head I'd call myself Princess MrsJ just for fun! :) even if it's not technically right and for giggles I'd make my family curtesy to me at least once! Jk
  #1415  
Old 04-18-2011, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by pacomartin View Post
You are correct about it being rare. I could not find one single case of a prince prior to 1970 that was about to get married that was not a Duke. There are, of course, many Princes who died young and were never made Dukes.
You're forgetting HRH Prince Arthur of Connaught, only son of The Prince Arthur, Duke of Connaught, who married his first cousin, Princess Alexandra, Duchess of Fife in 1913. Alexandra chose to be styled after her husband's title and was known after her marriage as "HRH Princess Arthur of Connaught".

Prince Arthur died of stomach cancer and his son, Alastair Windsor, Earl of MacDuff, succeeded his grandfather, as The Duke of Connaught.
  #1416  
Old 04-18-2011, 12:41 PM
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Camilla is married to the heir to the throne, the same position as Diana was in while married, and I don't hear anyone calling her "Princess Camilla". The reason is she is styled as "The Duchess of Cornwall".

The same thing will happen with Catherine. If she is styled "Princess William of Wales", then it makes sense people will just start calling her "Princess Catherine" instead. But if she becomes "The Countess of X or The Duchess of Y", they won't.
  #1417  
Old 04-18-2011, 01:13 PM
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HRH, Princess Catherine of Wales

You know something, the queen just might suprise all of you who insist that it is impossible that she would allow Catherine Middleton to be known as HRH, Princess Catherine of Windsor. No, it is not tradition but times are changing. And what if Prince William wants this for the woman he loves? Has anyone thought of that? From what I have read in articles, three months ago William asked his grandmother not to make him a duke, that he wants to remain a Prince and for Kate to be named Princess Catherine. The queen can do as she pleases in this matter from what I have read so all the speculation and assuming will change nothing and if she allows Kate to become Princess Catherine there is nothing that can be done about it. I hope she allows this because I think it is what William wants for the woman he loves and for her to have her own identity. I think it is wonderful!
  #1418  
Old 04-18-2011, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by American Observer7 View Post
You know something, the queen just might suprise all of you who insist that it is impossible that she would allow Catherine Middleton to be know as HRH, Princess Catherine of Windsor. No, it is not tradition but times are changing.
Here Here. I think that now would be a good time to change some traditions.
  #1419  
Old 04-18-2011, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacomartin View Post
Thank you. I put the list together a while ago because I was trying to figure out why there were no woman in history who had "Princess male-firstname" as their primary title. It turns out that prior to 1970 every married Prince was first a duke (although the custom of naming them a duke just prior to their wedding is relatively recent).

I should have listed giving William a lesser title like Earl, Marquis, Viscount, or Baron. I rejected the idea because I thought that the public would perceive it as a trial run for Catherine, that she would only get the major title if the marriage lasted.

I figured that there was little point in any title lower than Duke since, as Princess William, she could always go by Lady Catherine by default. If she is speaking in America, they won't care because it will remind people of "Lady Di". It would be less awkward in an interview. If she is speaking, she could be introduced as "Her Royal Highness Princess William of Wales", referred to in person as "Your Royal Highness" the first time and then throughout the interview they would call her "Lady Catherine" instead of "ma'am".
Well just look at the similiarities..Except, I spell my different..Mine is the old English ,medieval version..
  #1420  
Old 04-18-2011, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by American Observer7 View Post
You know something, the queen just might suprise all of you who insist that it is impossible that she would allow Catherine Middleton to be known as HRH, Princess Catherine of Windsor. No, it is not tradition but times are changing. And what if Prince William wants this for the woman he loves? Has anyone thought of that? From what I have read in articles, three months ago William asked his grandmother not to make him a duke, that he wants to remain a Prince and for Kate to be named Princess Catherine. The queen can do as she pleases in this matter from what I have read so all the speculation and assuming will change nothing and if she allows Kate to become Princess Catherine there is nothing that can be done about it. I hope she allows this because I think it is what William wants for the woman he loves and for her to have her own identity. I think it is wonderful!

Princess Catherine of Windsor? Who's that? For starters, there's no way the Queen is going to give William the Dukedom of Windsor, not after who it used to belong to. Nazi sympathies aside, the Queen's uncle disgraced his family and his country, and I doubt seriously she would countenance giving that title to her eldest grandson who will one day be King. So Catherine will never be "of Windsor" no matter what her title ends up being. Two, I highly doubt that William would publicly challenge or criticize the conventions of both his family and the monarchy by all-but demanding Catherine be titled or styled the way HE sees fit, rather than by the Queen's design, which is how it's done. She is the fount of all honor, what Catherine is or is not called is by the Queen's discretion, not William's. Three, we don't know what William wants or what William doesn't want. You should learn to not take everything you read in the press as truth, and take it with a grain of salt. There's been so much disinformation spread around since their engagement about what they're doing, what they're wearing, what they'll be called, it's enough to do people's heads in. Four, it would look hypocritical for the Queen to give an honor to Catherine she has not given to another future queen, her daughter-in-law Camilla. If the idea of making Catherine a princess is because she's going to be Queen.....Camilla is going to be queen too. What's good for the goose, you know.
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