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View Poll Results: What Title will the Queen bestow on William and Catherine?
Duke of Clarence 25 16.45%
Duke of Cambridge 68 44.74%
Duke of Sussex 5 3.29%
Duke of Windsor 8 5.26%
Duke of Kendall 2 1.32%
Earl of Something 8 5.26%
Hey! My choice isn't listed. I think it will be something else. 10 6.58%
Nothing. I think they will remain Prince and Princess William of Wales 26 17.11%
Voters: 152. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1381  
Old 04-17-2011, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Grandma828 View Post
Luckily we only have 12 days to go to get all these questions answered.
Yep...and then we'll start talking about what titles/styles their children will have, all the way up to the birth.
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  #1382  
Old 04-17-2011, 07:32 PM
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Right well I've had a long think about all this and come to the conclusion that I now actually quite like the SOUND of HRH Princess William of Wales. Yes, it's weird, old fashioned, highly sexist, and I'm quite likely to change my mind in a week, but it's a formal title and not what Kate would be known as by her family, the public or the media (Except maybe the BBC and in the Court Circular). It is no better or worse than being a countess of a place that no longer exists (as in Wessex) nor a title no one has ever explained (as in Princess Royal) nor a title that would be more suited to an Angela Lansbury character in Death On The Nile (Duchess of Cambridge) or a secondary title because the first is too controversial (as in Duchess of Cornwall) or even a title of place you never lived in or visited (as in Duchess of Kent or Duchess of York)!
The title will be a surprise whatever happens, because I think 29th April will be a day full of surprise.
The next twelve days are going to long ones I think!
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  #1383  
Old 04-17-2011, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Jacknch View Post
Right well I've had a long think about all this and come to the conclusion that I now actually quite like the SOUND of HRH Princess William of Wales. Yes, it's weird, old fashioned, highly sexist, and I'm quite likely to change my mind in a week, but it's a formal title and not what Kate would be known as by her family, the public or the media (Except maybe the BBC and in the Court Circular). It is no better or worse than being a countess of a place that no longer exists (as in Wessex) nor a title no one has ever explained (as in Princess Royal) nor a title that would be more suited to an Angela Lansbury character in Death On The Nile (Duchess of Cambridge) or a secondary title because the first is too controversial (as in Duchess of Cornwall) or even a title of place you never lived in or visited (as in Duchess of Kent or Duchess of York)!
The title will be a surprise whatever happens, because I think 29th April will be a day full of surprise.
The next twelve days are going to long ones I think!

The title "Princess Royal" has been explained, though. Queen Henriette Marie, who was born a princess of France, wanted to imitate the way the eldest daughter of the French king was styled "Madame Royale". So the practice of the eldest daughter of the English King (or Queen) being named "Princess Royal" began. A princess cannot hold the title while another title holder is still alive, which is why the Queen was never given that title, as her aunt Mary, Countess of Harewood was still living.
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  #1384  
Old 04-17-2011, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
The title "Princess Royal" has been explained, though. Queen Henriette Marie, who was born a princess of France, wanted to imitate the way the eldest daughter of the French king was styled "Madame Royale". So the practice of the eldest daughter of the English King (or Queen) being named "Princess Royal" began.
I believe Jacknch's point is that while we (royal watchers and maybe the British public) might know what these titles mean (i.e. The Princess Royal) most people don't.

Therefore a majority of the world wouldn't even consider it a big thing for Kate to become HRH Princess William of Wales considering that she will probably still be known as Kate, Princess Kate or Princess Katherine...which we all know will still be incorrect.
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  #1385  
Old 04-17-2011, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Skippy View Post
The point is that you write it down like it is a fact, but we don't know anything about it.
It is all personal opinion and speculation until the 29th.
Re opinion of Skippy .
Most of what is written on here is speculation , and I'm fortunate that I have excellent contacts in England and family connections .
However I see your point .
  #1386  
Old 04-17-2011, 09:27 PM
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Personally I really like the title HRH The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge the most. I just hope he gets some title because i think it will be a nice and new and interesting change. It's kind of like maturing and growing up for Prince William. I'm excited! How does the Queen usually announce or bestow titles. Is it a press release or a true investment(or does that only happen with title like The Prince of Wales and such?)? If they receive no title I won't be upset. HRH Prince and Princess William of Wales is still fine for me. Kate will still be known as Princess Kate/Catherine by the press and everyone else. No on ever gets it right.
  #1387  
Old 04-17-2011, 09:49 PM
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DM today speculating Duke and Duchess pf Stratheim ....? I may be spelling that wrong
  #1388  
Old 04-17-2011, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna Catherine View Post
Personally I really like the title HRH The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge the most. I just hope he gets some title because i think it will be a nice and new and interesting change. It's kind of like maturing and growing up for Prince William. I'm excited! How does the Queen usually announce or bestow titles. Is it a press release or a true investment(or does that only happen with title like The Prince of Wales and such?)? If they receive no title I won't be upset. HRH Prince and Princess William of Wales is still fine for me. Kate will still be known as Princess Kate/Catherine by the press and everyone else. No on ever gets it right.
Agreed. As for the actual granting, no ceremony is necessary, I think--just some paperwork signed by the Queen and registered/filed somewhere, maybe the College of Arms or something like that? And then an announcement, probably again by twittering.
  #1389  
Old 04-17-2011, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna Catherine View Post
Personally I really like the title HRH The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge the most. I just hope he gets some title because i think it will be a nice and new and interesting change. It's kind of like maturing and growing up for Prince William. I'm excited! How does the Queen usually announce or bestow titles. Is it a press release or a true investment(or does that only happen with title like The Prince of Wales and such?)? If they receive no title I won't be upset. HRH Prince and Princess William of Wales is still fine for me. Kate will still be known as Princess Kate/Catherine by the press and everyone else. No on ever gets it right.

Letters Patent will be issued, usually on the morning of the wedding and the media informed so that they can make the annoucement during the coverage.

As for a investiture - no that isn't normal in a public sense as it used to be done when they took their seat in the House of Lords e.g. both Charles and Andrew formally took their seats in the Lords. Charles did son in 1970 and Andrew in 1986. Edward never did formally take his seat as he got his earldom in 1999 when the reform of the Lords took place so his title was simply the LPs and no formal ceremony at all.

The Prince of Wales investiture is more a 20th C idea. George V was never so invested as he took his seat in the House of Lords before becoming heir to the throne - he was Duke of York. Edward VII was never invested but that might have as much to do with the death of his father as anything else. Had Albert lived it is possible that he might have designed a ceremony for such a purpose but Albert Edward also took his seat in the Lords as did George VI and George III (as Duke of Edinburgh not Duke of Cornwall as George III never qualified to be Duke of Cornwall).
  #1390  
Old 04-17-2011, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
I believe Jacknch's point is that while we (royal watchers and maybe the British public) might know what these titles mean (i.e. The Princess Royal) most people don't.

Therefore a majority of the world wouldn't even consider it a big thing for Kate to become HRH Princess William of Wales considering that she will probably still be known as Kate, Princess Kate or Princess Katherine...which we all know will still be incorrect.
I would hate to see it turn out that way. I think that the monarchy is primarily about symbolism, and to have one title that people either use incorrectly or think is old - fashioned sounding and sexist would be a problem.

My personal preference is that Catherine be made a "princess in her own right". I know that it has never been done before, and that is part of the point. It is optimistic move. It is saying that this marriage will not end up unhappy, or in divorce. It says that Catherine will be giving speeches alone.
  #1391  
Old 04-17-2011, 10:25 PM
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Whether or not Catherine becomes a Princess in her own right has nothing to do with her making speeches alone. Can you expand on your thought?
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  #1392  
Old 04-17-2011, 10:29 PM
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Making her a princess in her own right doesn't mean that the marriage will not end unhappily. If William and Kate stay married until one of their deaths or until they divorce (of course no one wants that to happen), it will happen regardless of what titles if any, either of them receive on their wedding day.

Catherine will be giving speeches alone, or at least doing her own thing, even if she's not made a princess in her own right, especially after Charles becomes King. So that has nothing to do with it either.

The fact of the matter is, there are other women who married into the BRF who were not given the largesse of being made a princess in their own right, especially both Diana and now Camilla, both of whom were/are in the same position Catherine will be in a couple of weeks -- the future Queen. I'm not even mentioning the wives of the Queen's cousins, I'm talking about her own daughters-in-law. Diana, Sarah, Camilla, Sophie.....none of them were made princesses in their own right. All of them, regardless of their current or future stations, were treated as commoners who married princes. They became HRH The Princess X and then any other titles their husbands held. I cannot see the Queen bucking literally centuries of precedent and tradition for her, no matter what her future titles or duties may be. If she didn't do it for either of the women who married Charles, she's not going to do it for William's wife.
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  #1393  
Old 04-17-2011, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacomartin View Post

My personal preference is that Catherine be made a "princess in her own right". I know that it has never been done before, and that is part of the point. It is optimistic move. It is saying that this marriage will not end up unhappy, or in divorce. It says that Catherine will be giving speeches alone.
I understand that you think it is an "optimistic move", but I do not think that the Queen will see it that way. (The more that I see of Sister Morphine's postings, the more I agree with her.)

I doubt that the Queen would consider it, "optimism" suddenly to overturn a centuries long tradition of giving the title, "princess" only to daughters of the monarch or to wives of princes! The Queen follows tradition. A woman takes her husband's title when she marries him. If he is a prince, she becomes a princess. If she is the daughter of a monarch, she is born a princess. If she is born a princess, i.e. is a princess "in her own right", her "only" title is her first name. Unless, like The Princess Anne, she is granted an additional title (like, "The Princess Royal").

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  #1394  
Old 04-18-2011, 02:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
Making her a princess in her own right doesn't mean that the marriage will not end unhappily. If William and Kate stay married until one of their deaths or until they divorce (of course no one wants that to happen), it will happen regardless of what titles if any, either of them receive on their wedding day.

Catherine will be giving speeches alone, or at least doing her own thing, even if she's not made a princess in her own right, especially after Charles becomes King. So that has nothing to do with it either.

The fact of the matter is, there are other women who married into the BRF who were not given the largesse of being made a princess in their own right, especially both Diana and now Camilla, both of whom were/are in the same position Catherine will be in a couple of weeks -- the future Queen. I'm not even mentioning the wives of the Queen's cousins, I'm talking about her own daughters-in-law. Diana, Sarah, Camilla, Sophie.....none of them were made princesses in their own right. All of them, regardless of their current or future stations, were treated as commoners who married princes. They became HRH The Princess X and then any other titles their husbands held. I cannot see the Queen bucking literally centuries of precedent and tradition for her, no matter what her future titles or duties may be. If she didn't do it for either of the women who married Charles, she's not going to do it for William's wife.
I am aware that none of the 29 women who married British princes since 1714 has ever created a British princess in her own right. (The 30th was Wallis Simpson). Only Phillip and Albert (2 out of 57 ) were made princes who were not natural born.

HRH Princess Michael has used that style now for 33 years, and HRH Princess Richard used that style for 2 years between her marriage and a succession of her husband (1972-1974). I am sure they both give speeches and are their names are used in the media. To the best of my knowledge, these are the only two women in British history who used the style "Princess male firstname" as their primary title. All the other husbands were Dukes before they were married. So we are really talking about a tradition that goes back to Germany prior to the 18th century.

There was no need to do it for Diana, and Camilla since they had perfectly good titles to use when marrying Charles. Edward and Andrew were given titles upon their marriage.

But William is different. If he is given a ducal title, it will only be temporary. If not, then if Catherine gives a speech in the USA or China, the first three paragraphs or minutes of every broadcast will be to explain why she is called "HRH Princess William" and not "HRH Princess Catherine". Then there will be discussion of why the monarchy is not an archaic male centric institution.

I think it will be a distraction from their public life. The distraction will only get worse if the first born child is a girl. Given the ages that most people live, this question will arise every generation. I think it is now time to change centuries of tradition in a small way.

=======
But I also think that Charles should resign before he dies. I think that tradition should also go with Queen Elizabeth II.

The Kingdom may go to absolute primogeniture. The kingdom may also change the religious role of the monarch. Catholics may some day be allowed to be monarch.

I don't see anything wrong with the monarchy changing.
  #1395  
Old 04-18-2011, 03:05 AM
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Given the recent british royal martial history, I really don't think that Catherine will be made a Princess in her own right, not even if William asks grandma to do his this one favor

Slighlty OT, Is Sarah still legally a Duchess? I know that the Queen is still legally the Duchess of Edinburgh even though she has a much higher style and is never referred to as such
  #1396  
Old 04-18-2011, 05:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
I believe Jacknch's point is that while we (royal watchers and maybe the British public) might know what these titles mean (i.e. The Princess Royal) most people don't.

Therefore a majority of the world wouldn't even consider it a big thing for Kate to become HRH Princess William of Wales considering that she will probably still be known as Kate, Princess Kate or Princess Katherine...which we all know will still be incorrect.
That's right, although I ought really to have known the history of the Princess Royal title and so I appreciate Sister Morphine's explaination!

It is no surprise the number of people I know (who are not into royalty) who do not know much about titles and why they are given and will simply accept whatever title is given or used. So it's quite true that the majority of people in Britain would simply accept whatever William and Kate become known as, officially and otherwise.

As an aside, my other half thought Princess Michael of Kent was actually called Michael and was visably surprised when I said it was Marie Christine. Obviously the reason clicked into place but it shows that most people on the street don't really think about titles - not like us on TRF!!
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  #1397  
Old 04-18-2011, 05:39 AM
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She has Duchess of York as sort of a surname unless she remarries, but she's no longer a Royal Highness.

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Originally Posted by HRHofNothing View Post
Slighlty OT, Is Sarah still legally a Duchess? I know that the Queen is still legally the Duchess of Edinburgh even though she has a much higher style and is never referred to as such
  #1398  
Old 04-18-2011, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by HRHofNothing View Post
Given the recent british royal martial history, I really don't think that Catherine will be made a Princess in her own right, not even if William asks grandma to do his this one favor

Slighlty OT, Is Sarah still legally a Duchess? I know that the Queen is still legally the Duchess of Edinburgh even though she has a much higher style and is never referred to as such

No - she is Sarah, Duchess of York with Duchess of York really her surname. This is the normal way of referring to the divorced wife of a peer - rather than use Sarah Mountbatten-Windsor (as Andrew technically doesn't have a surname then Sarah didn't get one on marriage anyway). It is why I get upset when I see people refer to Camilla as Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall as that would be if she was divorced. She should be HRH The Duchess of Cornwall - with no name at all.

Elizabeth was referred to as The Duchess of Edinburgh during the first 4 and a bit years of her marriage of course as she took her title from her husband but when she took the higher title he couldn't get a higher title as her husband.

Royals and nobles don't use their names with their titles - so the Duke of Devonshire would formally be His Grace The Duke of Devonshire again with no name mentioned.
  #1399  
Old 04-18-2011, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by rawsilk View Post
I understand that you think it is an "optimistic move", but I do not think that the Queen will see it that way. (The more that I see of Sister Morphine's postings, the more I agree with her.)
Sister Morphine is taking the historically accurate approach to the question. She's researched the facts. If 29 women married a British prince since the widespread adoption of the title with the House of Hanover (and none were made into princess in her own right) then why should Catherine be different? The 30th marriage was that of Wallis Simpson who should technically have been a princess, but was never referred to as such.

I am trying to hypothesize how the attitude toward titles is changing
1) In 1972 the 26 year old Birgitte Eva van Deurs marries Prince Richard, the first British Prince in history to marry that is not also a Duke. He is beginning his career as an architect and she works as well. Their plans for a private life are changed as his brother dies 6 weeks later, and his father only 2 years after that. The Duke of Windsor died just weeks before his marriage. With these three deaths Richard unexpectedly goes from a relatively minor Prince to becoming the most senior exclusively-male-line male in the House of Windsor, and the Duke of Gloucester. His career ends as prepare for a life of royal duties.
2) In 1973 Princess Anne marries and refuses her mother's offer for a title for her husband knowing that her children will have no title.
3) In 1974 the newly widowed Duchess of Gloucester dislikes her new style as "Dowager Duchess of Gloucester" and asks to violate tradition and be styled "Princess Alice". The Queen grants permission, even though there is already another "Princess Alice" who is of royal blood. The queen does not issue letters patent.
4) In 1978 Prince Michael becomes the second British Prince in history to marry that is not a Duke. His wife retains the style of Princess Michael
5) In 1999 Prince Edward becomes the third British Prince in history to marry that is not a Duke. The Queen takes the unique stance of making him an Earl, and the queen requesting that her successor make him a Duke after the death of both of his parents.

So now history tells us that Prince William will be made a Duke the day before his marriage, and Catherine will become a Duchess. But in the queen's entire reign only a single dukedome has been created (for Prince Andrew), and only 8 Dukes are created in the history of the UK.

Of the following choices:
(A) Make William a Duke of whatever, which will vanish in importance when he becomes Duke of Cornwall but will be carried down his male line for possibly hundreds of years. Yet the only real reason for this title is so that Catherine will have a non-male centered style,
(B) Have Catherine adopt the title of HRH Prince William until Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Charles die,
(C) Make Catherine a princess in her own right.


I think that choice (C) is more consistent with the changing attitudes, and the desire not to create new Dukedoms for Richard, Michael, and Edward.
  #1400  
Old 04-18-2011, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by pacomartin View Post
Of the following choices:
(A) Make William a Duke of whatever, which will vanish in importance when he becomes Duke of Cornwall but will be carried down his male line for possibly hundreds of years. Yet the only real reason for this title is so that Catherine will have a non-male centered style,
(B) Have Catherine adopt the title of HRH Prince William until Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Charles die,
(C) Make Catherine a princess in her own right.


I think that choice (C) is more consistent with the changing attitudes, and the desire not to create new Dukedoms for Richard, Michael, and Edward.
Richard and Michael weren't created dukes because they were the second sons of dukes and actually in line for those dukedoms and Richard of course ended up as the Duke.

Michael is currently 6th in line to the Dukedom of Kent. If the current Duke of Kent's male line grandsons only have daughters then Michael's line will inherit the Dukedom of Kent.

Edward wasn't created a Duke because of the desire to have one of Philip's sons actually end up with the same title. Unless Charles/William decide not to honour the already announced agreement or the title never becomes available for regrant Edward will become a Duke.

If William is created a Duke then I would also suspect gender neutral inheritance or we could reach a situation where the throne passes to the eldest child - a girl - but the Dukedom goes to the younger child if a son.
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