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View Poll Results: What Title will the Queen bestow on William and Catherine?
Duke of Clarence 25 16.45%
Duke of Cambridge 68 44.74%
Duke of Sussex 5 3.29%
Duke of Windsor 8 5.26%
Duke of Kendall 2 1.32%
Earl of Something 8 5.26%
Hey! My choice isn't listed. I think it will be something else. 10 6.58%
Nothing. I think they will remain Prince and Princess William of Wales 26 17.11%
Voters: 152. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1281  
Old 04-09-2011, 10:58 PM
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The Queen may very well permit Catherine to use the style of "Princess Catherine" upon marriage. It is entirely up to her as the fount of honour and there is precedent for allowing it.

I doubt it will happen, simply because The Queen would feel it is inappropriate given that her two daughter-in-laws, who take precedence ahead of Catherine as wives of sons of The Sovereign, are not styled this way.

I think she will be known as "HRH The Duchess of X".
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  #1282  
Old 04-10-2011, 04:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
If William is not given an earldom or a dukedom, he will continue being HRH Prince William of Wales. If he and Catherine have a son while the Queen still reigns, and that son's name is George, he would HRH Prince George of Wales. All other children they have while the Queen still reigns would be Lord/Lady X Windsor.

When Charles becomes King, and William becomes Duke of Cornwall, any children he has will be HRH Prince/Princess X of Cornwall. Just like the children of George V were HRH Prince/Princess X of Cornwall and York when Edward VII became King. If William is then invested as the Prince of Wales, his children will then be HRH Prince/Princess X of Wales, as their father's main title will be The Prince of Wales, rather than The Duke of Cornwall. Children take their titles from their fathers (and in very rare exceptions, their mothers). So whatever territorial designations William has, his children will have.
In order to prevent Williams oldest son from being Prince X of Wales based upon his grandfather's territory, and then cease to be such, and then to be made Prince X of Wales AGAIN, I think William will get some title upon his wedding. It may be a earl. If it is, then Harry would also likely be made an earl upon his wedding. Then when Charles comes to the throne, Harry is likely to be created a Duke, maybe around the same time William becomes THE Prince of Wales.
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  #1283  
Old 04-10-2011, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Americanskipper View Post
In order to prevent Williams oldest son from being Prince X of Wales based upon his grandfather's territory, and then cease to be such, and then to be made Prince X of Wales AGAIN, I think William will get some title upon his wedding. It may be a earl. If it is, then Harry would also likely be made an earl upon his wedding. Then when Charles comes to the throne, Harry is likely to be created a Duke, maybe around the same time William becomes THE Prince of Wales.
I have to say, this logic works for me and is that I keep coming back to time and again. I can understand William not wanting to change how he is known (his identity, so to speak) but since that's probably inevitable, it would seem to make sense that he'd go with something he can live with for a considerable amount of time before having to change again, i.e. upon his Grandmother's death, his father's ascension to the throne and his probably investiture at Prince of Wales. Of course, that could all happen at any time, but I hope it won't be for many, many years. Long live the Queen!
  #1284  
Old 04-10-2011, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Americanskipper View Post
In order to prevent Williams oldest son from being Prince X of Wales based upon his grandfather's territory, and then cease to be such, and then to be made Prince X of Wales AGAIN, I think William will get some title upon his wedding. It may be a earl. If it is, then Harry would also likely be made an earl upon his wedding. Then when Charles comes to the throne, Harry is likely to be created a Duke, maybe around the same time William becomes THE Prince of Wales.

Harry probably won't get a dukedom until Prince Andrew dies, as it is customary for the 2nd son of the sovereign to be given the title Duke of York. As Andrew has no male heirs, when he dies it'll merge into the crown and be available for a re-grant. Of course, if Harry is given a dukedom before then, and Charles as King still decides to give him the dukedom of York, he'll be known as HRH Prince Henry, The Duke of X and York, and any of his children he has at that time will be HRH Prince/Princess X of Y and York.
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  #1285  
Old 04-10-2011, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
Harry probably won't get a dukedom until Prince Andrew dies, as it is customary for the 2nd son of the sovereign to be given the title Duke of York. As Andrew has no male heirs, when he dies it'll merge into the crown and be available for a re-grant. Of course, if Harry is given a dukedom before then, and Charles as King still decides to give him the dukedom of York, he'll be known as HRH Prince Henry, The Duke of X and York, and any of his children he has at that time will be HRH Prince/Princess X of Y and York.

Harry will get a Dukedom probably a long time before Andrew dies. Not all second sons get York e.g. Queen Victoria's second son was made Edinburgh - and York was available at the time.

Andrew is only 51 and could easily live another 40 years so that would mean Harry waiting that long or even more.

Andrew could remarry at any time and have a son - so what happens if Andrew remarries aged 70 a 25 year old (unlikely but possible) and they have a son and heir to York but meanwhile Harry has been left in limbo waiting for a title that won't be available.

Harry will get his own Dukedom when he marries and York will be availably in about 30 to 40 years time for William to use for his second son or even wait for William's heir's second son.
  #1286  
Old 04-10-2011, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Grandduchess24 View Post
Prince William duke of Clarence
Prince William duke of Albany
Princess Catherine "
Sound nice?

Albany isn't available as there is a current claimant.
  #1287  
Old 04-10-2011, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Albany isn't available as there is a current claimant.

No there isn't. When Friedrich Josias, Prince of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha died in 1998, the Dukedom of Albany and all its subsidiary titles became extinct. He had sons, but they weren't granted permission to marry under the Royal Marriages Act of 1772, so under British law, their marriages are considered void. That means the children from those marriages are considered illegitimate and unable to succeed.

So the title is available for a re-grant if HM chooses to.
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  #1288  
Old 04-10-2011, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
Harry probably won't get a dukedom until Prince Andrew dies, as it is customary for the 2nd son of the sovereign to be given the title Duke of York. As Andrew has no male heirs, when he dies it'll merge into the crown and be available for a re-grant. Of course, if Harry is given a dukedom before then, and Charles as King still decides to give him the dukedom of York, he'll be known as HRH Prince Henry, The Duke of X and York, and any of his children he has at that time will be HRH Prince/Princess X of Y and York.
There is a precedent from Victoria's reign where the Duke of York title went unused for a generation. One of Victoria's Hanoverian uncles had been Duke of York but died without any legitimate children. She gave her second son the title of Duke of Edinburgh her later sons were Duke of Connaught and Duke of Albany. It wasn't until the next generation where she granted the York title to the future George V.

Right now, the York title has some not-so-positive associations due to some of Andrew's activities. I think that if Harry gets a title, they'll want to give him something fresh without that connotation.
  #1289  
Old 04-11-2011, 12:02 AM
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Iluvbertie, I think you are entirely correct... If the current Duke of York had fathered a son, the title would have been passed down to his direct line male heirs. Therefore, if the queen wants to give a dukedom to William and/or Harry, this one will not be available at least while Andrew is alive or his son, if any. That would not prevent Harry from receiving another dukedom if the queen so decides.
  #1290  
Old 04-11-2011, 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Susanna Wynne View Post
Iluvbertie, I think you are entirely correct... If the current Duke of York had fathered a son, the title would have been passed down to his direct line male heirs. Therefore, if the queen wants to give a dukedom to William and/or Harry, this one will not be available at least while Andrew is alive or his son, if any. That would not prevent Harry from receiving another dukedom if the queen so decides.
I agree here too. It still is very much in the realm of possibility that Andrew could still have a male heir to pass the dukedom to. My grandfather was born in 1867 and fathered my dad at a "randy" old age of 67 (my grandmother was 40 when she delivered). Its also quite possible that should equal primogeniture be passed to include peerages other than specifically stated titles (such as Cornwall), Beatrice just may be passing the York torch.

What would be amazing in time is if Charles as King creates Harry the Duke of Clarence along with passing Clarence House to him. I can see him passing on Highgrove to William.

Makes for some interesting thinking of all the "what ifs"
  #1291  
Old 04-11-2011, 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
No there isn't. When Friedrich Josias, Prince of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha died in 1998, the Dukedom of Albany and all its subsidiary titles became extinct. He had sons, but they weren't granted permission to marry under the Royal Marriages Act of 1772, so under British law, their marriages are considered void. That means the children from those marriages are considered illegitimate and unable to succeed.

So the title is available for a re-grant if HM chooses to.
What about Prince Herbertus who does claim that right http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_...Gotha_(b._1961)
  #1292  
Old 04-11-2011, 04:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
Harry probably won't get a dukedom until Prince Andrew dies, as it is customary for the 2nd son of the sovereign to be given the title Duke of York. As Andrew has no male heirs, when he dies it'll merge into the crown and be available for a re-grant. Of course, if Harry is given a dukedom before then, and Charles as King still decides to give him the dukedom of York, he'll be known as HRH Prince Henry, The Duke of X and York, and any of his children he has at that time will be HRH Prince/Princess X of Y and York.
Harry will never become Duke of York. The next Duke of York most likely be William's second son. (I know I am leaving the main purpose of this thread - sorry!)

I think the most likely scenario is William is made an Earl in two weeks when he marries. Harry is also made an earl when he marries. That sort of is in line with Prince Edward being made an Earl.

Then after the queen and Prince Philip dies and the Duke of Kent and Gloucester are too senior to carry out many tasks and even Anne has to start slowing down, everyone will get 'promoted'. Charles will become King. William will immediately be made Duke of Cornwall and soon thereafter THE prince of Wales. Edward will get Duke of Edinbourgh. And Harry will be some Duke other than York.
  #1293  
Old 04-11-2011, 08:15 AM
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William will be given a dukedom...his great-great-grandfather George V's older brother, Prince Albert was Duke of Clarence while their father was still Prince of Wales...meaning he, Prince Albert - DUKE OF CLARENCE, would have been the next Prince of Wales had he been alive when his father became king.

A duke is the highest rank of nobility below the monarchy and remember Prince Edward chose not to become a duke.

Hold on a second...by the theory of a dukedom being unnecessary for William due to his inheritance of the Duchy of Cornwall and Rothesay, as the eldest son of the current PoW aka Duke of Cornwall/Rothesay...wouldn't that make William an earl already? Thus by marriage Catherine would become a countess...
  #1294  
Old 04-11-2011, 08:23 AM
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A duke is the highest rank of nobility below the monarchy
Indeed, but if bestowed, the title will become a royal title having been gifted to a royal prince, thus he will be a royal Duke.

We understand that the highest-ranking hereditary title in the British peerage is that of a Duke, but the disparity between a Duke of royal blood and a Duke of noble blood is well distinguished.
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  #1295  
Old 04-11-2011, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Americanskipper View Post
In order to prevent Williams oldest son from being Prince X of Wales based upon his grandfather's territory, and then cease to be such, and then to be made Prince X of Wales AGAIN, I think William will get some title upon his wedding.
William's eldest son would be "HRH Prince X" if he retains his current style, not "of Wales". He would not be the child of The Prince of Wales.

His eldest son would enjoy this style by right of birth under the 1917 Letters Patent, while the other children would automatically be styled as the children of a Duke, even if William was not created a Duke by his grandmother, as great-grandchildren in the male-line of The Sovereign.

So, his children's styles are irrelevant to the question because the 1917 Letters Patent already state how they will be styled at birth automatically. The issue is one of giving his wife an appropriate title of her own, rather than using "Princess William".
  #1296  
Old 04-11-2011, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Sherlock221B View Post
Hold on a second...by the theory of a dukedom being unnecessary for William due to his inheritance of the Duchy of Cornwall and Rothesay, as the eldest son of the current PoW aka Duke of Cornwall/Rothesay...wouldn't that make William an earl already? Thus by marriage Catherine would become a countess...
No, because the titles currently held by Charles are restricted to the heir to the throne and are not hereditary. His children are automatically HRH Prince/Princess of the UK by right of birth, which takes precedence.

If Charles had been created a Peer prior to assuming his current titles, then you could make the argument his son could technically use the secondary peerage as a courtesy style. Similar to Edward and Sophie's children, they are automatically HRH Prince/Princess X of Y, but are styled as the children of an Earl at the choice of their parents.
  #1297  
Old 04-11-2011, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Madame Royale

Indeed, but if bestowed, the title will become a royal title having been gifted to a royal prince, thus he will be a royal Duke.
Thus he will take precedence over the non blood royal dukes...and will continue to be styled "His Royal Highness"...why does this prevent him from becoming a duke rather than an earl?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madame Royale
We understand that the highest-ranking hereditary title in the British peerage is that of a Duke, but the disparity between a Duke of royal blood and a Duke of noble blood is well distinguished.
Ok...see above...
  #1298  
Old 04-11-2011, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Sherlock221B View Post
Thus he will take precedence over the non blood royal dukes...and will continue to be styled "His Royal Highness"...why does this prevent him from becoming a duke rather than an earl?
The Queen can create William a Peer of any degree she wishes. Even if she created him Baron Windsor, he would take precedence ahead of all the non-royal Peers of the Realm as HRH. His rank flows from his place to The Sovereign, not the Peerage.
  #1299  
Old 04-11-2011, 02:33 PM
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Is a dukedom the only title he can receive? What about an earldom, etc?
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  #1300  
Old 04-11-2011, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg

The Queen can create William a Peer of any degree she wishes. Even if she created him Baron Windsor, he would take precedence ahead of all the non-royal Peers of the Realm as HRH. His rank flows from his place to The Sovereign, not the Peerage.
Noooooo problem....what does that have to do with him receiving a dukedom, or not, upon his marriage?

It has been suggested that he should't because he will receive the dukedoms of Cornwall and Rothesay as the PoW. Which is true...nevertheless his great-great-grandfather King George V was a blood royal duke, Duke of York, before he became PoW...in addition his older brother, Prince Albert who was the eldest son of the PoW (like William), was also bestowed a dukedom, Duke of Clarence before their father ascended to the throne as King Edward VII

Therefore why would William's future titles...PoW & the accompanying dukedoms...KING...influence if the Queen bestows a dukedom to him on his wedding day?

Could someone please clarify?
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