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View Poll Results: What Title will the Queen bestow on William and Catherine?
Duke of Clarence 25 16.45%
Duke of Cambridge 68 44.74%
Duke of Sussex 5 3.29%
Duke of Windsor 8 5.26%
Duke of Kendall 2 1.32%
Earl of Something 8 5.26%
Hey! My choice isn't listed. I think it will be something else. 10 6.58%
Nothing. I think they will remain Prince and Princess William of Wales 26 17.11%
Voters: 152. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1221  
Old 04-07-2011, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
According to Letters Patent issued in 1917 by George V, the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales is afforded the title and style of HRH Prince X of Y. Any subsequent children would be styled as the children of a duke (or earl) and accordingly be Lord/Lady X Windsor. So say William and Kate have a son while the Queen is still on the throne. If they are the Duke & Duchess of Cambridge, their son would be HRH Prince X of Cambridge (or whatever territorial designation they have). If their first born is a girl, she would be Lady X Windsor. If their next child after that girl is a son, he would HRH Prince X of Y.

All that would change obviously, once Charles becomes king. Because then William's children would be grandchildren of the sovereign in the male line and afforded the title and style of HRH Prince/Princess X of Y. Same for Harry's kids.
You see, I have a issue with that more than the whole "Princess William of Wales". The fact that a son would be a Prince but a daughter would be a Lady does not sit well with me, oh well! But that's an issue for another thread....
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  #1222  
Old 04-07-2011, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by texankitcat View Post
Yes, I understand that Prince Michael is still a Prince and his wife is still HRH, Princess Michael. I didn't say otherwise.
I didn't say you did.

I was pointing out that just because Micheal had to give up any claim to the throne his wife was still made a Princess on marriage and that that issue had nothing to do with, or impact on, the title he held or that she could therefore assume.

Quote:
Although assuming the feminine form of the male title is traditional in the BRF, I find it antiquated compared to other royal houses. Perhaps one day that will change.
I find the fact that the male can make is spouse a princess antiquated in a modern world. I also find it totally discriminatory that a princess can make her spouse a prince, or pass on the title to her children, even for one generation. e.g. I think Zara should be a princess as a grandchild of the monarch and should also be able to make Mike a prince - if woman won't equality then that issue also needs to be considered.


But I must admit I prefer the British way over the continental one as it is clear who was born royal and who married into the royal caste. If one is to have such a grouping then I believe you have to be born royal and that if not, even on marriage, you don't suddenly become royal.
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  #1223  
Old 04-07-2011, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Mia_mae View Post
You see, I have a issue with that more than the whole "Princess William of Wales". The fact that a son would be a Prince but a daughter would be a Lady does not sit well with me, oh well! But that's an issue for another thread....
I agree...I hope the Queen will eventually issue LPs making all children of PW and Catherine HRHs on their birth, on the ground that they'll eventually become HRHs anyway (when PC and/or PW become King).

On the other hand, I greatly respect their wishes to be more "modern", even if it mean letting their children be just Lady/Lord (except for the first born son) first. I'm just kinda traditional, but do recognize that sometimes things need to change. I think they'll figure out a good combination of remaining traditional while becoming more modern, just like PW's past ancestors (the Queen, etc)
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  #1224  
Old 04-07-2011, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mia_mae View Post
You see, I have a issue with that more than the whole "Princess William of Wales". The fact that a son would be a Prince but a daughter would be a Lady does not sit well with me, oh well! But that's an issue for another thread....

It's only the eldest son that would be a prince. If William and Catherine have 3 boys before Charles is king, the youngest two would be Lord X Windsor. If they have all girls, they'd all be Lady X Windsor until Charles was king, when they'd be Princess X of Y.

All of William's children will a Prince/Princess at some point. This isn't that big of a deal.

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Originally Posted by Royal_Eagle View Post
I agree...I hope the Queen will eventually issue LPs making all children of PW and Catherine HRHs on their birth, on the ground that they'll eventually become HRHs anyway (when PC and/or PW become King).

On the other hand, I greatly respect their wishes to be more "modern", even if it mean letting their children be just Lady/Lord (except for the first born son) first. I'm just kinda traditional, but do recognize that sometimes things need to change. I think they'll figure out a good combination of remaining traditional while becoming more modern, just like PW's past ancestors (the Queen, etc)

It makes zero sense for the Queen to write new Letters Patent when William's children, no matter the gender, will be Prince/Princess of the UK with the style HRH once Charles is King. I mean, it would be one thing if they would never be able to be afforded that title/style in the first place, but they will be. It's a forgone conclusion.
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  #1225  
Old 04-08-2011, 02:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texankitcat View Post
Although assuming the feminine form of the male title is traditional in the BRF, I find it antiquated compared to other royal houses. Perhaps one day that will change.
It's not only the RF but the whole aristocracy. The wife of the younger sons of dukes and marquesses take their husband's title with his first name. The wife of Lord Peter X becomes Lady Peter X just like Lord Nicolas Windsor's wife became Lady Nicolas. Just in case that the bride is of higher rank than her husband (like son of a marquess and daughter of a duke) or an equal (both children of dukes or marquesses) she can choose to keep her first name.
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  #1226  
Old 04-08-2011, 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
It makes zero sense for the Queen to write new Letters Patent when William's children, no matter the gender, will be Prince/Princess of the UK with the style HRH once Charles is King. I mean, it would be one thing if they would never be able to be afforded that title/style in the first place, but they will be. It's a forgone conclusion.
Wasn't it also pretty much a foregone conclusion in 1948, though? George VI and Elizabeth weren't realistically going to have any more children, and Princess Elizabeth was treated as the de facto heiress apparent. I suppose Charles and Anne were the grandchildren of the monarch rather than the great-grandchildren, though.
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  #1227  
Old 04-08-2011, 04:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
It makes zero sense for the Queen to write new Letters Patent when William's children, no matter the gender, will be Prince/Princess of the UK with the style HRH once Charles is King. I mean, it would be one thing if they would never be able to be afforded that title/style in the first place, but they will be. It's a forgone conclusion.

I agree to a certain extant.

However, if Charles predeceases the Queen I could see her issuing LPs to give HRH to all children of both Harry and William as Harry's children wouldn't get it automatically if Charles doesn't become King. Of course William would probably grant them that right himself but we don't know what the future holds and they could have a major falling out over something and not be on speaking terms at that point in time (unlikely I know but it is still possible).
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  #1228  
Old 04-08-2011, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
According to Letters Patent issued in 1917 by George V, the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales is afforded the title and style of HRH Prince X of Y. Any subsequent children would be styled as the children of a duke (or earl) and accordingly be Lord/Lady X Windsor. So say William and Kate have a son while the Queen is still on the throne. If they are the Duke & Duchess of Cambridge, their son would be HRH Prince X of Cambridge (or whatever territorial designation they have). If their first born is a girl, she would be Lady X Windsor. If their next child after that girl is a son, he would HRH Prince X of Y.
I understand that. My question is, if William and Kate are not make a Duke and Duchess, and so have no territorial designation, then what would their eldest son be named? Would he be HRH Prince X of Wales (just like His father)?
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  #1229  
Old 04-08-2011, 08:26 AM
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No, if William and Kate's first child is a girl, she'd be titled HRH Princess X of Wales, assuming that William doesn't have an earldom or dukedom.
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  #1230  
Old 04-08-2011, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Catherine Helvin View Post
No, if William and Kate's first child is a girl, she'd be titled HRH Princess X of Wales, assuming that William doesn't have an earldom or dukedom.
No! While the Queen is still on the throne, and Prince Charles is still POW, if William does not get an Earl or a Duke with a territory, all of William and Kate's children (with the exception of their eldest son) will simply be lord and lady.

My question, is regarding their eldest son. Would he be Prince X of Wales, exactly the same as William and Henry? It doesn't seem like he should be, since his father would not be the Prince of Wales. But I don't know.
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  #1231  
Old 04-08-2011, 09:19 AM
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Pardon my ignorance, The Prince is higher title then Duke?
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  #1232  
Old 04-08-2011, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Americanskipper View Post
My question, is regarding their eldest son. Would he be Prince X of Wales, exactly the same as William and Henry? It doesn't seem like he should be, since his father would not be the Prince of Wales. But I don't know.
Good question!
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  #1233  
Old 04-08-2011, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by wbenson View Post
Wasn't it also pretty much a foregone conclusion in 1948, though? George VI and Elizabeth weren't realistically going to have any more children, and Princess Elizabeth was treated as the de facto heiress apparent. I suppose Charles and Anne were the grandchildren of the monarch rather than the great-grandchildren, though.
That was the very exact situation I was thinking of when I suggested that the Queen might issue LPs to make children of PW and Catherine HRHs. But I'd guess it'd be more likely PW and Catherine wouldn't want her to do that and raise them as Lords/Ladies (with the exception of first son)

And the situation isn't exactly the same anyway--great-grandchildren vs grandchildren. So I'm guessing it's more likely the Queen won't do anything, even though I think she should.

We shall see what will happen.
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  #1234  
Old 04-08-2011, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by texankitcat View Post
Good question!
Thanks. Does anybody know??
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  #1235  
Old 04-08-2011, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Catherine Helvin View Post
No, if William and Kate's first child is a girl, she'd be titled HRH Princess X of Wales, assuming that William doesn't have an earldom or dukedom.
That's incorrect. 1917 Letters Patent from George V state that the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales was to be afforded a princely status, not the eldest daughter or any daughter, for that matter. Whether or not that should be changed is for another thread. If William doesn't have an earldom or dukedom, all children aside from his eldest son (should he have one) will be mere Lord/Lady X Windsor as great-grandchildren of the monarch. Now, during Victoria's reign, great-grandchildren of the monarch in the male line were styled as HH Prince/Princess X of Y, but that obviously changed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Americanskipper View Post
I understand that. My question is, if William and Kate are not make a Duke and Duchess, and so have no territorial designation, then what would their eldest son be named? Would he be HRH Prince X of Wales (just like His father)?
Yes, the eldest son of William would be HRH Prince X of Wales, with the same territorial designation as his father.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wbenson View Post
Wasn't it also pretty much a foregone conclusion in 1948, though? George VI and Elizabeth weren't realistically going to have any more children, and Princess Elizabeth was treated as the de facto heiress apparent. I suppose Charles and Anne were the grandchildren of the monarch rather than the great-grandchildren, though.
That's why they were afforded a princely status, owing to their status as children of the future Queen. Otherwise, Charles would have merely been Lord Merioneth (one of his father's courtesy titles) and Anne would have been Lady Anne Mountbatten as they were grandchildren in the female line (similar to Peter and Zara).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Americanskipper View Post
My question, is regarding their eldest son. Would he be Prince X of Wales, exactly the same as William and Henry? It doesn't seem like he should be, since his father would not be the Prince of Wales. But I don't know.

If William is not bestowed with a dukedom or an earldom on his wedding day, he will continue to be HRH Prince William of Wales. If he and Catherine have a son as their first-born while the Queen is still reigning, that son will be HRH Prince X of Wales. There's a difference between a prince of Wales (which is what William and Harry are) and the Prince of Wales, which is what his father is. The eldest son of William would be a prince of Wales, if his father has no new territorial designation. When Charles is King, if William is created the Prince of Wales, that son will continue to have Wales as his territorial designation. If not, it would change to Wales.
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  #1236  
Old 04-08-2011, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
If William is not bestowed with a dukedom or an earldom on his wedding day, he will continue to be HRH Prince William of Wales. If he and Catherine have a son as their first-born while the Queen is still reigning, that son will be HRH Prince X of Wales. There's a difference between a prince of Wales (which is what William and Harry are) and the Prince of Wales, which is what his father is. The eldest son of William would be a prince of Wales, if his father has no new territorial designation. When Charles is King, if William is created the Prince of Wales, that son will continue to have Wales as his territorial designation. If not, it would change to Wales.
Are you saying this: Assuming William does not get a territorial designation, his first son would be Prince X of Wales. Then when Prince Charles comes to the throne but before William would be made THE prince of Wales, William's son would be Prince X of Cornwell. Then after William were to be made THE prince of Wales, his son would become Prince X of Wales - AGAIN???
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  #1237  
Old 04-08-2011, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Americanskipper View Post
Are you saying this: Assuming William does not get a territorial designation, his first son would be Prince X of Wales. Then when Prince Charles comes to the throne but before William would be made THE prince of Wales, William's son would be Prince X of Cornwell. Then after William were to be made THE prince of Wales, his son would become Prince X of Wales - AGAIN???
Yes, you're absolutely correct.

Similar to George V's children being styled Prince X of Cornwall & York after his father's ascent to the throne and prior to the Duke of Cornwall & York being made The Prince of Wales.
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  #1238  
Old 04-08-2011, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post

That's why they were afforded a princely status, owing to their status as children of the future Queen. Otherwise, Charles would have merely been Lord Merioneth (one of his father's courtesy titles) and Anne would have been Lady Anne Mountbatten as they were grandchildren in the female line (similar to Peter and Zara).
I'd say their princely status was granted them not only because of their condition as children of he future Queen but also because I believe the Mountbatten-Windsor solution for the family name would only be enforced by the Queen later on. I think George VI and Queen Elizabeth wouldn't have been quite pleased with a future Princess of the United Kingdom being names Lady X Mountabatten
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  #1239  
Old 04-08-2011, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Americanskipper View Post
Are you saying this: Assuming William does not get a territorial designation, his first son would be Prince X of Wales. Then when Prince Charles comes to the throne but before William would be made THE prince of Wales, William's son would be Prince X of Cornwell. Then after William were to be made THE prince of Wales, his son would become Prince X of Wales - AGAIN???

If William is not given an earldom or a dukedom, he will continue being HRH Prince William of Wales. If he and Catherine have a son while the Queen still reigns, and that son's name is George, he would HRH Prince George of Wales. All other children they have while the Queen still reigns would be Lord/Lady X Windsor.

When Charles becomes King, and William becomes Duke of Cornwall, any children he has will be HRH Prince/Princess X of Cornwall. Just like the children of George V were HRH Prince/Princess X of Cornwall and York when Edward VII became King. If William is then invested as the Prince of Wales, his children will then be HRH Prince/Princess X of Wales, as their father's main title will be The Prince of Wales, rather than The Duke of Cornwall. Children take their titles from their fathers (and in very rare exceptions, their mothers). So whatever territorial designations William has, his children will have.
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  #1240  
Old 04-08-2011, 11:59 AM
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I'd say their princely status was granted them not only because of their condition as children of he future Queen

No, that's exactly why they were afforded a princely status, because otherwise it would have been denied them as grandchildren of the monarch in the female line. Children take the last name of their fathers, and Philip's last name was Mountbatten. So any children they had past Charles, would have taken his last name, with no princely title or status. Say all of the Queen's children after Charles were born before she became Queen. You'd have the Earl of Merioneth (not Lord Merioneth, as I incorrectly read), Lady Anne Mountbatten, Lord Andrew Mountbatten and Lord Edward Mountbatten. Obviously when Elizabeth became Queen their statuses would change, but when Charles was born in 1948, there was no way of knowing that the King would die in 3 1/2 years.
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