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View Poll Results: What Title will the Queen bestow on William and Catherine?
Duke of Clarence 25 16.45%
Duke of Cambridge 68 44.74%
Duke of Sussex 5 3.29%
Duke of Windsor 8 5.26%
Duke of Kendall 2 1.32%
Earl of Something 8 5.26%
Hey! My choice isn't listed. I think it will be something else. 10 6.58%
Nothing. I think they will remain Prince and Princess William of Wales 26 17.11%
Voters: 152. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1121  
Old 03-25-2011, 03:41 PM
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I doubt the queen will make catherine a princess in her own right.
She would then outrank the princess royal.
HM only daughter.
She will be most likley granted the title HRH which is the most important part.
The queen may bestow a dukedom on her grandson the gift would be for him
And then she would be known as HRH princess william duchess of ........
As far as comparing her to prince phillip.
He is the soveriegns husband much like prince albert.
Queen victoria actually wanted to make him king consort.
I very much doubt HM will make her a princess in her own right.
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  #1122  
Old 03-25-2011, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lwbohm View Post
I doubt the queen will make catherine a princess in her own right.
She would then outrank the princess royal.
HM only daughter.
She will be most likley granted the title HRH which is the most important part.
The queen may bestow a dukedom on her grandson the gift would be for him
And then she would be known as HRH princess william duchess of ........
As far as comparing her to prince phillip.
He is the soveriegns husband much like prince albert.
Queen victoria actually wanted to make him king consort.
I very much doubt HM will make her a princess in her own right.

Even if the Queen made Catherine a princess in her own right, she wouldn't outrank the Princess Royal. With or without that distinction, Catherine's place in the Order of Precedence is determined by the rank of her husband. So where William ranks in the Order of Gentlemen is where Catherine's rank in the Order of Ladies will be. Now, when Charles is King, Catherine I believe would outrank her, as the wife of the heir to the throne. However right now, she would not.

It's not that she will "most likely" be granted the style HRH, she will get it. William is HRH Prince William of Wales, and she will be HRH Princess William of Wales unless the Queen grants William a dukedom on his wedding day, at which point she'd be HRH The Duchess of X. I don't think she'd make her a princess in her own right anyway, because she didn't do that for either of her cousin's wives, or her daughters-in-law, so I'd hardly see how it would be fair.
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  #1123  
Old 03-25-2011, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Morphine

Even if the Queen made Catherine a princess in her own right, she wouldn't outrank the Princess Royal. With or without that distinction, Catherine's place in the Order of Precedence is determined by the rank of her husband. So where William ranks in the Order of Gentlemen is where Catherine's rank in the Order of Ladies will be. Now, when Charles is King, Catherine I believe would outrank her, as the wife of the heir to the throne. However right now, she would not..
Official precedence or when men are in the room as wife of William I believe Catherine outranks Anne but in informal events/within the RF events or with no men she will not outrank Anne for sure, the same rules apply to Camilla .....I believe it's on the BRF website and has been discussed many times in this thread so I hope I remembered correctly
There is a BRF precedence thread somewhere with way more info
Edit- see below -

The Queen recently changed the order of precedence for private occasions, putting the Duchess of Cornwall fourth in the order of precedence, after herself, the Princess Royal, and Princess Alexandra, contrary to the usual position of the heir's consort. The Duchess of Cornwall continues to rank second in the order of precedence at official occasions, such as state dinners.
The Court Circular also lists Prince William of Wales above his uncles, Prince Andrew, Duke of York, and Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex, which suggests that he takes precedence over them.
  #1124  
Old 03-25-2011, 07:08 PM
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I don't see how William could take precedence over his uncles -- they are sons of the sovereign, he isn't. Now, when Charles is king, he will take precedence over them, as they will be just brothers of the sovereign.

At official occasions, if Camilla ranks second behind the Queen as wife of the heir to the throne, wouldn't the Countess of Wessex follow, with Anne and then Catherine following her?
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  #1125  
Old 03-25-2011, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Morphine
I don't see how William could take precedence over his uncles -- they are sons of the sovereign, he isn't. Now, when Charles is king, he will take precedence over them, as they will be just brothers of the sovereign.

At official occasions, if Camilla ranks second behind the Queen as wife of the heir to the throne, wouldn't the Countess of Wessex follow, with Anne and then Catherine following her?
Edit- ok I re read the thread and Sister you're right William does not outrank his Uncles officially just his Aunt ...so Catherine will be ahead of Anne but not Camilla and Sophie in the official precedence but Anne (and others) are ahead of Camilla and Catherine in informal precedence due to her being Princess of Royal Blood :) sorry about the confusion!
  #1126  
Old 03-25-2011, 07:31 PM
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No worries.
  #1127  
Old 03-25-2011, 09:00 PM
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I'm so confused about the order of precedence. Is it just completely different then from the order of succession? Is it just different so the Queen can put people in any order she likes (if, say, a ne'er do well cousin were the heir)?

I think the Queen's visit to Cambridge a few days before the wedding is a sign and she'll make the big announcement there...so I'm voting for a Dukedom of Cambridge for Wills, making Kate a Duchess :) April 29 seems so far away...I'm so impatient.
  #1128  
Old 03-25-2011, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Gudgeon
I'm so confused about the order of precedence. Is it just completely different then from the order of succession? Is it just different so the Queen can put people in any order she likes (if, say, a ne'er do well cousin were the heir)?.
Yes precedence and succession are 2 different things and the short answer is yes the Queen can issue LPs to change the order of precedence when she wants but not succesion.....
  #1129  
Old 03-25-2011, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Gudgeon View Post
I'm so confused about the order of precedence. Is it just completely different then from the order of succession? Is it just different so the Queen can put people in any order she likes (if, say, a ne'er do well cousin were the heir)?

I think the Queen's visit to Cambridge a few days before the wedding is a sign and she'll make the big announcement there...so I'm voting for a Dukedom of Cambridge for Wills, making Kate a Duchess :) April 29 seems so far away...I'm so impatient.

Order of precedence is based on relationship to the monarch - so the moanrch's children rank ahead of her grandchildren.

Order of succession is based on who will be the next monarch etc.

So William, as the grandson of the monarch ranks behind all four of the Queen's children in precedence but ahead of all but his father in the line of succession. William's precedence will change when Charles becomes King as he and Harry will move ahead of Charles' siblings.

The Queen has decided though that Princesses of the Blood Royal rank ahead of incomers when only the women are present - and although it hasn't been stated as such I wonder if Beatrice and Eugenie are now ahead of Camilla when only women are present, as Princesses born? Of course we may never know as they don't do royal duties and so it wouldn't be obvious at anything where the press would be present.
  #1130  
Old 03-25-2011, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRSJ View Post
Yes precedence and succession are 2 different things and the short answer is yes the Queen can issue LPs to change the order of precedence when she wants but not succesion.....

The Queen doesn't issue LPs to change precedence but it is determined by the monarch although there are rules that normally apply - e.g. children of the monarch always ahead of grandchildren.

What the Queen did with the announcement about Anne and Alexandra being ahead of Camilla was unusual but wasn't done by LPs - just an announcement to put royals born ahead of royals by marriage.
  #1131  
Old 03-25-2011, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie

The Queen doesn't issue LPs to change precedence but it is determined by the monarch although there are rules that normally apply - e.g. children of the monarch always ahead of grandchildren.

What the Queen did with the announcement about Anne and Alexandra being ahead of Camilla was unusual but wasn't done by LPs - just an announcement to put royals born ahead of royals by marriage.
I apologize - thank you, I'm still working on the getting these things totally straight! :)
  #1132  
Old 03-25-2011, 10:18 PM
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Thanks to you both. Seems so confusing to have two different ways to "order" people - although, as you say Iluvbertie, one can be changed by current queen/king and one is set. And it does make sense that QE would want PA/PA/PE ahead of grandchildren.

All so interesting (and complicated)...
  #1133  
Old 03-25-2011, 10:45 PM
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Excellent questions but so that the thread isn't thrown off track, if there are any additional questions regarding the order of precedence, please continue the discussion here Order of Precedence .

Zonk
British Forums Moderator
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  #1134  
Old 03-27-2011, 08:53 AM
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Posts that discuss the Edward, Earl of Wessex and the future of the Duke of Edinburgh title have been copied here http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...es-258-43.html .

Let's stay on topic for a Title for William, Catherine and Family.
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  #1135  
Old 04-05-2011, 07:01 AM
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Royal Wedding: What title will William take? - Telegraph

Royal Wedding: What title will William take?

Here are some of the dukedoms Prince William could be given on his wedding day
  #1136  
Old 04-05-2011, 03:17 PM
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I do not think that Catherine will be made a princess in her own right. For a start, it is not the custom of the British Royal Family to honour new members in this way.

As to whether Prince Williams is made a Royal Duke, could I, with appropriate humility as this is my first post, make a couple of points?

1. To me, there seems to be a slight trend to moving away from creating Royal Dukes; when Prince Edward was about to be married, there was speculation that he would be created Duke of Sussex / Cambridge etc. In the end, as we know, he was created Earl of Wessex, which I think took most royal watchers by surprise, not only because he was not created a Royal Duke [although he is in line to inherit the title of Duke of Edinburgh when that title reverts to the Crown on the death of his father] but also because Wessex was not an existing English County.

My second reason is this: Prince William is currently a serving RAF Officer. Over the past few months, I have detected another trend, namely for him to be living very much more of what I will have to call a 'private' type of life in his 'non-royal working life'. For example, a few weeks ago, it was recorded that Prince William and Catherine [when at their home in Wales] like to 'look after themselves' and do not wish to have staff. It is also a fact that they have been seen doing their own shopping in nearby towns and villages etc. This, if you think about it, is quite a departure from the traditional way that newly-married royalty has conducted their lives in even the more recent times.

Of course we cannot know what is in the Queen's mind, but I would not be totally surprised if the young couple are not given such a formal 'handle' right at the start of their married life together. The Queen will of course be able to bestow whatever Royal Title she feels appropriate at at an appropriate time - this might, for example, be at the end of Prince William's immediate service career as a serving officer or perhaps when the couple have children.

Alex
  #1137  
Old 04-05-2011, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post

It's not that she will "most likely" be granted the style HRH, she will get it.

Whilst I am quite sure that Catherine will be created 'HRH', the example of the Duchess of Windsor would appear to indicate that although a wife marrying into the Royal Family is entitled to use her husband's 'style and title' [the same as any other English lady who marries - (the rules are slightly different in Scotland) for example Miss Susan Johnson marries Mr Edward Smythe and therefore is entitled to be known as Mrs Edward Smythe], Wallis Simpson, although she became Duchess of Windsor, was expressly NOT granted the right to use the honorific HRH'

Alex
  #1138  
Old 04-05-2011, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diarist View Post
Whilst I am quite sure that Catherine will be created 'HRH', the example of the Duchess of Windsor would appear to indicate that although a wife marrying into the Royal Family is entitled to use her husband's 'style and title' [the same as any other English lady who marries - (the rules are slightly different in Scotland) for example Miss Susan Johnson marries Mr Edward Smythe and therefore is entitled to be known as Mrs Edward Smythe], Wallis Simpson, although she became Duchess of Windsor, was expressly NOT granted the right to use the honorific HRH'

Alex
The reason Wallis Simpson was expressly NOT granted HRH was the Royal Family was very angry with the Duke for abdicating the Throne, as well as concerns that the marriage wouldn't last and if they divorced, Wallis would be able to take her "HRH" with her. There's a lot more information about this in the thread on the Duke and Duchess of Windsor.

You can't really compare Wallis to Catherine though--she WILL get HRH, if only in formal occasions. They may not use that all the time, but they will have it. By default, a woman marrying into the Royal Family always get her husband's titles and styles, including HRH if her husband is a HRH. But they can choose not to use the titles or styles if they don't want to.

So it's really just apple and orange comparison.
  #1139  
Old 04-05-2011, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diarist View Post
I do not think that Catherine will be made a princess in her own right. For a start, it is not the custom of the British Royal Family to honour new members in this way.

As to whether Prince Williams is made a Royal Duke, could I, with appropriate humility as this is my first post, make a couple of points?

1. To me, there seems to be a slight trend to moving away from creating Royal Dukes; when Prince Edward was about to be married, there was speculation that he would be created Duke of Sussex / Cambridge etc. In the end, as we know, he was created Earl of Wessex, which I think took most royal watchers by surprise, not only because he was not created a Royal Duke [although he is in line to inherit the title of Duke of Edinburgh when that title reverts to the Crown on the death of his father] but also because Wessex was not an existing English County.

My second reason is this: Prince William is currently a serving RAF Officer. Over the past few months, I have detected another trend, namely for him to be living very much more of what I will have to call a 'private' type of life in his 'non-royal working life'. For example, a few weeks ago, it was recorded that Prince William and Catherine [when at their home in Wales] like to 'look after themselves' and do not wish to have staff. It is also a fact that they have been seen doing their own shopping in nearby towns and villages etc. This, if you think about it, is quite a departure from the traditional way that newly-married royalty has conducted their lives in even the more recent times.

Of course we cannot know what is in the Queen's mind, but I would not be totally surprised if the young couple are not given such a formal 'handle' right at the start of their married life together. The Queen will of course be able to bestow whatever Royal Title she feels appropriate at at an appropriate time - this might, for example, be at the end of Prince William's immediate service career as a serving officer or perhaps when the couple have children.

Alex
You're certainly right about the trend away from Royal Dukedoms. However because Prince William is a Heir Apparent (behind his father), he will probably get one on his marriage, and WILL get one once his Dad becomes King (he inherits the Duchy of Cornwall), while other members, including Prince Harry might not a dukedom (especially after it's clear he will probably not ascend to the throne because Prince William have children) because they're not as close to the Throne.

Again you're right that they want to lead a more normal life, but being a Duke isn't going to get in the way of doing that though. One of the main reason he may get a Dukedom is so Catherine won't have to be called Princess William (officially anyway), but can be called by Duchess of X (or Countess of X or the feminine form of whatever title Prince William get).

I should point out though that Prince Edward is really not in the line to get Dukedom of Edinburgh, as it can only go to Prince Charles. There's a thread about that on the top level of British Royalty forum.

And before I forget, welcome!
  #1140  
Old 04-05-2011, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal_Eagle View Post
The reason Wallis Simpson was expressly NOT granted HRH was the Royal Family was very angry with the Duke for abdicating the Throne, as well as concerns that the marriage wouldn't last and if they divorced, Wallis would be able to take her "HRH" with her. There's a lot more information about this in the thread on the Duke and Duchess of Windsor.

You can't really compare Wallis to Catherine though--she WILL get HRH, if only in formal occasions. They may not use that all the time, but they will have it. By default, a woman marrying into the Royal Family always get her husband's titles and styles, including HRH if her husband is a HRH. But they can choose not to use the titles or styles if they don't want to.

So it's really just apple and orange comparison.
Sorry, I appear not to have made my point clearly enough - I fully accept that Catherine will be made HRH, the point I was tyring to make is that use of this honorific is not actually automatic - using the Duchess of Windsor as an example. Yes, you are quite right, of course it reflected anger and I am not disputing this, I was just trying to explain that the HRH is in the nature of being in the gift of the queen.

Alex
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