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View Poll Results: What Title will the Queen bestow on William and Catherine?
Duke of Clarence 25 16.45%
Duke of Cambridge 68 44.74%
Duke of Sussex 5 3.29%
Duke of Windsor 8 5.26%
Duke of Kendall 2 1.32%
Earl of Something 8 5.26%
Hey! My choice isn't listed. I think it will be something else. 10 6.58%
Nothing. I think they will remain Prince and Princess William of Wales 26 17.11%
Voters: 152. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1101  
Old 03-18-2011, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mia_mae View Post
If they change the law, making the first born the heir to the throne regardless of the gender, then a daughter would be know as HRH Princess .... ??

If the UK adopts equal primogeniture, it would depend on when it happens and if it's retroactive (as was the case in Sweden) or not (as is the case in many other monarchies).

In either instance new Letters Patent would have to be issued detailing the change in titling/styling of the eldest child of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales.
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  #1102  
Old 03-18-2011, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
If their ducal title is Cambridge, she'd be Lady X Cambridge.
They would be "Lord/Lady X Mountbatten-Windsor" as male-line great-grandchildren of The Queen under the 1917 Letters Patent. They are entitled to this style in their own right, regardless of whether William is created a Duke.
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  #1103  
Old 03-18-2011, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Grandduchess24 View Post
Should Kate get the title princess of wales upon marriage or is it camilla's?
I think it should be
Prince william of wales and princess Catherine of wales.
Unless Charles divorces Camilla and marries Catherine, Catherine will not be Princess of wales until the day her husband is Prince of Wales. Camilla IS princess of Wales, she chooses simply to be referred to as Duchess of Cornwall instead, because of the whole Diana issue.

Catherine will never be Princess Catherine of wales, except to the public. She will be Princess William of Wales, or if they get a ducal title like Camebridge, Duchess of Camebridge. Camilla is not Camilla Princess of Wales, she is HRH the princess of wales, if she ever used the name. Catherine will be HRH Princess William of Wales, or HRH The Duchess of .....
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  #1104  
Old 03-18-2011, 09:30 PM
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So, is there a chance that William will be created Earl, since he will inevitably become Duke of Cornwall? I know the Queen is being parsimonious with titles.

I am beginning to see the wisdom of that approach.

Oh, and I'm still not getting why Camilla is HRH the Princess of Wales, whereas Catherine will be HRH Princess William of Wales.

Why isn't Camilla HRH the Princess Charles of Wales, if she chose to use the title?

(Feel like a Ludite - no offense to any Ludites, will desist from using it if it is offensive!)
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  #1105  
Old 03-18-2011, 09:38 PM
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Because Charles is The Prince of Wales, not Prince Charles of Wales.
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  #1106  
Old 03-18-2011, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessKaimi View Post
So, is there a chance that William will be created Earl, since he will inevitably become Duke of Cornwall? I know the Queen is being parsimonious with titles.
It's possible, but Prince Edward being created Earl of Wessex was by his request, not because the Queen just decided to do it that way. It's tradition for the groom to be conferred a dukedom on their wedding day. This goes back hundreds of years.

Quote:
Oh, and I'm still not getting why Camilla is HRH the Princess of Wales, whereas Catherine will be HRH Princess William of Wales.
Camilla's the Princess of Wales because Charles is the Prince of Wales. With a "the". William is merely a Prince of Wales, not the Prince of Wales. Two separate distinctions. Catherine will be Princess William of Wales because her husband is Prince William of Wales.

Quote:
Why isn't Camilla HRH the Princess Charles of Wales, if she chose to use the title?
She is HRH The Princess Charles, but not HRH The Princess Charles of Wales because Charles isn't HRH The Prince Charles of Wales. He's merely HRH The Prince Charles, Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall, so forth and so on. She doesn't use the title because she has other titles she can use, such as The Duchess of Cornwall. A woman uses the senior-most available title to her, although in Camilla's case out of deference, she does not.
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  #1107  
Old 03-18-2011, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessKaimi View Post
So, is there a chance that William will be created Earl, since he will inevitably become Duke of Cornwall? I know the Queen is being parsimonious with titles.

I am beginning to see the wisdom of that approach.

Oh, and I'm still not getting why Camilla is HRH the Princess of Wales, whereas Catherine will be HRH Princess William of Wales.

Why isn't Camilla HRH the Princess Charles of Wales, if she chose to use the title?

(Feel like a Ludite - no offense to any Ludites, will desist from using it if it is offensive!)
William and Henry take their fathers principal title and apply, as part of their designation, the Principality of Wales.

So,

The Prince of Wales > Prince William of Wales > Princes Henry of Wales

The same is said for the Duke of York and his daughters

The Duke of York > Princess Beatrice of York > Prince Eugenie of York

So Catherine, as the wife of William, will become Princess William of Wales.

Hope that helps :)
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  #1108  
Old 03-18-2011, 09:54 PM
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Thank you all for trying to explain.

In the future, when William does become Prince of Wales, though - won't Catherine then have the same title that Camilla now holds?
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  #1109  
Old 03-18-2011, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessKaimi View Post
Thank you all for trying to explain.

In the future, when William does become Prince of Wales, though - won't Catherine then have the same title that Camilla now holds?
Yes. As the wife of the Prince of Wales, Catherine will be HRH The Princess William, Princess of Wales, Duchess of Cornwall, so forth and so on. Camilla will be Queen (she better be, anyway), so she'll cease to have those titles, as her husband will no longer carry them.
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  #1110  
Old 03-18-2011, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessKaimi View Post
So, is there a chance that William will be created Earl, since he will inevitably become Duke of Cornwall? I know the Queen is being parsimonious with titles.

I am beginning to see the wisdom of that approach.

Oh, and I'm still not getting why Camilla is HRH the Princess of Wales, whereas Catherine will be HRH Princess William of Wales.

Why isn't Camilla HRH the Princess Charles of Wales, if she chose to use the title?

(Feel like a Ludite - no offense to any Ludites, will desist from using it if it is offensive!)
Because Prince/Princess of Wales is a peerage. It is like Duke and Duchess of Cornwall, or Earl and Countess of Wessex. If Charles was simply HRH Prince Charles of the United Kingdom, with no peerage, she would be Princess Charles of the United Kingdom. It is a peerage. His children carry the title of prince x of wales, as children of his peerage.

Prince William of Wales is a title not a peerage. Therefore his wife will be Princess William of Wales. If he is given a peerage, say Duke of Camebridge, then she will be entitled to the rank. Camilla is entitled to Princess of Wales, Catherine to her husband's peerage, so Duchess of Camebridge.
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  #1111  
Old 03-18-2011, 10:01 PM
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You keep putting an extra "e" in Cambridge. Stop that! The minor pedant in me gets distracted by it. LOL
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  #1112  
Old 03-18-2011, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
Yes. As the wife of the Prince of Wales, Catherine will be HRH The Princess William, Princess of Wales, Duchess of Cornwall, so forth and so on. Camilla will be Queen (she better be, anyway), so she'll cease to have those titles, as her husband will no longer carry them.
I hope so too. I honestly think Camilla should have been Princess of Wales. Yes it would have caused a stir at first, but things would calm. She is the wife of the Prince of Wales. I hope she takes the title of Queen consort and not princess, when Charles is king. Diana is dead, nothing is bringing her back, and even if it did she'd still be the ex. Will and Harry have accepted her into their lives and family, support her and their father's marriage, and they are Diana's children. I'd be upset if Camilla continues to pander, and does not take the title queen.
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  #1113  
Old 03-18-2011, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
You keep putting an extra "e" in Cambridge. Stop that! The minor pedant in me gets distracted by it. LOL
Wow I'm sorry maybe it's my Oxford superiority complex shinning through.
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  #1114  
Old 03-18-2011, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by melissaadrian View Post
I hope so too. I honestly think Camilla should have been Princess of Wales. Yes it would have caused a stir at first, but things would calm. She is the wife of the Prince of Wales. I hope she takes the title of Queen consort and not princess, when Charles is king. Diana is dead, nothing is bringing her back, and even if it did she'd still be the ex. Will and Harry have accepted her into their lives and family, support her and their father's marriage, and they are Diana's children. I'd be upset if Camilla continues to pander, and does not take the title queen.
I don't think Camilla would have ever been accepted as Princess of Wales. Better to let that title rest until (or if) William is invested as the Prince of Wales. I do however agree that Camilla should be be titled Queen Consort rather than Princess Consort. No one will ever forget Diana, however it's time to let the living live their lives.
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  #1115  
Old 03-18-2011, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by melissaadrian View Post
Because Prince/Princess of Wales is a peerage. It is like Duke and Duchess of Cornwall, or Earl and Countess of Wessex. If Charles was simply HRH Prince Charles of the United Kingdom, with no peerage, she would be Princess Charles of the United Kingdom. It is a peerage. His children carry the title of prince x of wales, as children of his peerage.

Prince William of Wales is a title not a peerage. Therefore his wife will be Princess William of Wales. If he is given a peerage, say Duke of Camebridge, then she will be entitled to the rank. Camilla is entitled to Princess of Wales, Catherine to her husband's peerage, so Duchess of Camebridge.
Actually, The Prince of Wales is not a Peerage. It is a title that is conferred by The Sovereign and is not hereditary. The Dukedom of Cornwall is a Peerage, but one that is restricted to the eldest son of The Sovereign who is the heir to the throne. If the heir dies with male issue, it reverts to the Crown, rather than the next eldest son of The Sovereign.

"Prince William of Wales" is a style conferred by right of birth as a male-line grandson of The Sovereign. It reflects royal rank and precedence but is a courtesy only. Once created a Duke or Earl, William will then have a title.
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  #1116  
Old 03-18-2011, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by melissaadrian View Post
I honestly think Camilla should have been Princess of Wales.
Camilla is The Princess of Wales, she just chose not to use her senior title out of respect to the memory of Diana, who died styled as Princess of Wales and was the mother of the future king.

When Charles becomes King, as his wife, Camilla is automatically HM The Queen and nothing else applies. It will require an Act of Parliament and consent from the Crown Commonwealth nations for her to be styled as "HRH The Princess Consort" because she can only hold whatever titles her husband does. She does not have a title in her own right.
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  #1117  
Old 03-19-2011, 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
Because that's how it's done when a woman marries into a royal family -- she receives the feminine form of her husband's title(s). It would be akin to a woman marrying into your standard run-of-the-mill family and either taking her husband's last name, or hyphenating it with her maiden name.



She can't be Mrs. Catherine Middleton because she's not marrying a man whose last name is Middleton. She's marrying a man who in essence, has no last name at all.



Correct. Although on the banns of marriage, he may do as his aunt and uncle (and I believe his father) did, and list his last name as Mountbatten-Windsor, though I don't think that's required. His signature is just "William", and that's it.



She would be HRH Princess William of Wales, because that's the feminine form of her husband's title/style, which I mentioned above. She would not be Mrs. Catherine Wales, because Wales is not his last name. When he and Harry were in school (much like Beatrice and Eugenie would use York), he would use Wales as a last name if he needed one, but it's not his legal surname.
Mrs. Catherine Middleton was my attempt at keeping her maiden name(by choosing not to take her husbands name) while still acknowledging her marriage. Mrs. Catherine Wales was also an idea based on William using the last name of Wales for military reasons. My theory was that she would legally have a title but decide not to use therefore Mrs. Catherine Wales. I am not sure if that is even the case with titles but I thought I would put it out there. Considering all of the creations they come up with in the title department they could come up with some non-title names pretty easily.

Thanks for the answer on my question about William's last name. I was also wondering if anyone knows if there has been a female royal that has refused/decided not to use a title when offered one when she married into the family? I know Captain Mark Phillips turned one down but a women?
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  #1118  
Old 03-19-2011, 03:14 AM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
Camilla is The Princess of Wales, she just chose not to use her senior title out of respect to the memory of Diana, who died styled as Princess of Wales and was the mother of the future king.

When Charles becomes King, as his wife, Camilla is automatically HM The Queen and nothing else applies. It will require an Act of Parliament and consent from the Crown Commonwealth nations for her to be styled as "HRH The Princess Consort" because she can only hold whatever titles her husband does. She does not have a title in her own right.
True enough she is Princess of Wales, but she is not called it. If she had been introduced by the royal family as HRH The Princess of Wales on her marriage, no matter how much people bitched and moaned, that is what she would have been called. The media would not have lowered her down to the rank of Duchess of Cornwall in spite. I really don't know why Camilla needed to show 'respect' to her husband's ex wife. Diana was an amazing woman, but she was no innocent in the marriage either. I wonder if she lived, and she had married Dodi, or that doctor she was involved in, how public opinion would have shifted. She would no longer have been the spurned wife, injured party and moved on. She died still the single beautiful princess whose fairy book romance was destroyed by Camilla, who has been painted as the evil witch of the west. I think it was likely more respect for her stepsons, then for their dead mother, that she used the title of Duchess of Cornwall and not Princess.
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  #1119  
Old 03-19-2011, 03:39 AM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
Actually, The Prince of Wales is not a Peerage. It is a title that is conferred by The Sovereign and is not hereditary. The Dukedom of Cornwall is a Peerage, but one that is restricted to the eldest son of The Sovereign who is the heir to the throne. If the heir dies with male issue, it reverts to the Crown, rather than the next eldest son of The Sovereign.

"Prince William of Wales" is a style conferred by right of birth as a male-line grandson of The Sovereign. It reflects royal rank and precedence but is a courtesy only. Once created a Duke or Earl, William will then have a title.
Prince of Wales is listed as a peerage in burkes. It is one that is a recreated for every single holder, but still is. And I was under the impression those in the male line, are princes of the realm in their own right, not courtesy titles, that is why Will is Prince, and not one of his father's lesser titles, as would be customary for an heir of a Duke or Earl ie. James Wessex being viscount severn.
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  #1120  
Old 03-19-2011, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by melissaadrian View Post
Prince of Wales is listed as a peerage in burkes. It is one that is a recreated for every single holder, but still is. And I was under the impression those in the male line, are princes of the realm in their own right, not courtesy titles, that is why Will is Prince, and not one of his father's lesser titles, as would be customary for an heir of a Duke or Earl ie. James Wessex being viscount severn.

As male line grandsons of the monarch William and Harry are Princes in their own right but the 'of Wales' is a courtesy styling. It shows whose sons they are. The same with Beatrice and Eugenie. As male line granddaughters of the monarch they are automatically Princesses in their own right but the 'of York' style is a courtesy that identifies them as the children of the Duke of York.

Imagine is Andrew has a son now and his new wife's father's name is William so Andrew decides he wants to name that son William - to distinguish which Prince William is being referred to the 'of Wales' and 'or York' styling is used.
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