Prince William and Catherine Middleton Possible Titles

[KittyAtlanta]

I don't think HM will bestow any title for PW at his marriage. I believe she will leave any elevation to her son and heir, Charles.

[windsorgirl]

If HM does not give a new title to William and Catherine upon marriage, what title, if any, would their children bear? Doesn't the prince/princess title end with William as the heir to the heir? (Sorry if this has been asked before.)

Edit: OK, I see the discussion on the prior page, but what would be the children's titles? Thank you.

[Sister Morphine]

Great-grandchildren in the male line carry the HH title, rather than HRH. So William and Catherine's eldest son will be HRH if the Queen is still alive, and any subsequent children they have before her death will be HH Prince/Princess of Wales. That's according to letters patent that dictate who gets the HRH and who doesn't. Right now it's the children of the monarch, grandchildren of the monarch in the male line and the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales.

[Zonk]

I think the Queen will bestow a title on William and his wife. It was Harry, I would question it (at least during her lifetime I think Charles would do so). But William it supposed to be King (if things remain the same). So she will give him a Dukedom.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Zonk

I think the Queen will bestow a title on William and his wife. It was Harry, I would question it (at least during her lifetime I think Charles would do so). But William it supposed to be King (if things remain the same). So she will give him a Dukedom.

Yes i agree but on the other Hand William will get a lot of titles once his father is King and the ducal title he would get athis Wedding Day will then only by of many. Harry will get no one automatic.

[Sister Morphine]

Originally Posted by Zonk

I think the Queen will bestow a title on William and his wife. It was Harry, I would question it (at least during her lifetime I think Charles would do so). But William it supposed to be King (if things remain the same). So she will give him a Dukedom.

Harry's title depends on when Prince Andrew dies, as macabre as that sounds. Traditionally the 2nd son of the monarch is designated as such. If Prince Andrew outlives Charles, when he finally does die, the title will merge with the crown while William is King. He may wish to create a new Duke of York and give that to his second-oldest son, rather than his brother.

[Zonk]

I disagree. Why would Charles want to make Harry the DoY during William's lifetime, when the possibility exists that William can have sons who can be a Prince of Wales and a Duke of York?

I think Harry will another Duke but not York as chances are that Charles may have a short reign.

[agami.pearl]

I think that Harry won't be Duke of Your, we already have one - Prince Andrew. He wi;; get other title, I suppose.

[KittyAtlanta]

Originally Posted by Zonk

I disagree. Why would Charles want to make Harry the DoY during William's lifetime, when the possibility exists that William can have sons who can be a Prince of Wales and a Duke of York?

I think Harry will another Duke but not York as chances are that Charles may have a short reign.

Actually, this title thingie for PWill is the most engaging aspect of this event. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

[Sister Morphine]

Originally Posted by Zonk

I disagree. Why would Charles want to make Harry the DoY during William's lifetime, when the possibility exists that William can have sons who can be a Prince of Wales and a Duke of York?

I just said that. I didn't say Charles would make Harry the Duke of York. I said the possibility is that Andrew will outlive Charles, meaning that when William is King, there will already be a Duke of York, so Harry won't have received that title. When Andrew does die, William will more than likely have sons of his own and he will create a new Duke of York for his second-oldest, rather than Harry.

[Zonk]

Yes it is...will be it Clarence, Cambridge or Sussex. They haven't had titled holders in over 100 years..and I will add another wrinkle.....Connaught.

The Duke of Connaught (Queen Victoria's son) lived until 1941, and I believe he was one of the Queen's godparents (or someone's..I can't find the info right now). His daughter, Margaret maried Prince Gustaf Adolf of Sweden and the great grandmother of the current Swedish King and Danish Queen.

[KittyAtlanta]

Originally Posted by Zonk

I think the Queen will bestow a title on William and his wife. It was Harry, I would question it (at least during her lifetime I think Charles would do so). But William it supposed to be King (if things remain the same). So she will give him a Dukedom.

I just seems odd to me that the grandson would be a duke, while the grandson's father is a duke also. Sometimes my logic....

Then again, the grandfather is a duke too...oh well, let them duke it out!

[Zonk]

Originally Posted by Sister Morphine

I just said that. I didn't say Charles would make Harry the Duke of York. I said the possibility is that Andrew will outlive Charles, meaning that when William is King, there will already be a Duke of York, so Harry won't have received that title. When Andrew does die, William will more than likely have sons of his own and he will create a new Duke of York for his second-oldest, rather than Harry.

My apologies Sister Morphine. After I typed it and hit enter...I looked at your message and was like What? But then a call came in at work

[Sister Morphine]

Originally Posted by Zonk

Yes it is...will be it Clarence, Cambridge or Sussex. They haven't had titled holders in over 100 years..and I will add another wrinkle.....Connaught.

The Duke of Connaught (Queen Victoria's son) lived until 1941, and I believe he was one of the Queen's godparents (or someone's..I can't find the info right now). His daughter, Margaret maried Prince Gustaf Adolf of Sweden and the great grandmother of the current King.

Isn't Connaught an Irish title?

[Sister Morphine]

Originally Posted by Zonk

My apologies Sister Morphine. After I typed it and hit enter...I looked at your message and was like What? But then a call came in at work

It's cool -- lots of people all posting at the same time and something like that is bound to happen.

[Zonk]

Originally Posted by Sister Morphine

Isn't Connaught an Irish title?

Yes, it is. From Wikipedia:

The Dukedom of Connaught and Strathearn was named after one of the four provinces of Ireland, now known by its modern Irish language-based spelling of Connacht. It was seen as the title that if available would henceforth be awarded to a monarch's third son; the first son was traditionally Duke of Cornwall (in England) and Duke of Rothesay (in Scotland), and would be made Prince of Wales at some point, while the second son would often become Duke of York, if the title were available.
Since the exit of the Republic of Ireland from the United Kingdom in 1922, titles related to locations in Ireland have not been awarded (though Prince Edward, Prince of Wales – in 1936 briefly King Edward VIII – was made a Knight of the Order of St Patrick). However, territorial titles relating to Northern Ireland have continued to be awarded.
In view of the warming of relations between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland in the 1990s Queen Elizabeth II could award her third son, Prince Edward, the Dukedom of Connaught. This has so far not happened. The feelings of the Irish might be perturbed at the unwarranted imposition upon the populace of an English 'Duke' even if only of the most ephemerally titular sort. It was decided, however, that Prince Edward shall be created Duke of Edinburgh.

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So yes, looking at the History....it looks like Connaught is kind of out. But I love Margaret of Connaught and the old Duke (who himself was a godson of the Duke of Wellington). To me it would have been a nice connection to the past...the dukedom of the son of Queen Victoria, godson of the Duke of Wellington, who himself was the godfather of the Present Queen. I still need to find that confirmation.

Trying to do this while at work is not great :)

[Sister Morphine]

Probably a dumb question and a bit off-topic, but when Edward is created the Duke of Edinburgh, his children will become HRH automatically, right? They already are legally HRH but aren't styled as such, but in this instance they would be, correct?

[Lady Ann]

Originally Posted by Sister Morphine

Probably a dumb question and a bit off-topic, but when Edward is created the Duke of Edinburgh, his children will become HRH automatically, right? They already are legally HRH but aren't styled as such, but in this instance they would be, correct?

They already are as you said HRH, I don't think Edward will lift the lesser titles of his children. He did this for a reason and that reason will not change if he becomes a duke. It was my understanding that when his children become 18 they have the choice of using their HRH or not too.

[AnnEliza]

Thank you to all of you providing information, I am learning so much! This discussion is fascinating!

[Iluvbertie]

Originally Posted by Sister Morphine

Great-grandchildren in the male line carry the HH title, rather than HRH. So William and Catherine's eldest son will be HRH if the Queen is still alive, and any subsequent children they have before her death will be HH Prince/Princess of Wales. That's according to letters patent that dictate who gets the HRH and who doesn't. Right now it's the children of the monarch, grandchildren of the monarch in the male line and the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales.

I have just been reading the 1917 LPs which changed the HRH rules again to check that I was right in my understanding and I see no reason to change my opinion.

William's eldest son will be born HRH but the other children will be born Lord/Lady unless specific new LPs are issued.

Under the 1917 LPs the children of the monarch, male line grandchildren of the monarch and the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales are HRH with no mention of anyone having HH.

Those same 1917 LPs specifically deny the future use of HH or SH in Britain. Here is the wording of the LPs from 1917.

George the Fifth by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and of the British Dominions beyond the Seas, King, Defender of the Faith To all to whom these presents shall come Greeting: Whereas Her late Majesty Queen Victoria did by Her Letters Patent dated the thirtieth day of January in the twenty seventh year of Her Reign declare her Royal Pleasure as to the style and title of the Princes and Princesses of the Royal Family in the manner in the said Letters Patent particularly mentioned And whereas we deem it expedient that the said Letters Patent should be extended and amended and that the styles and titles to be borne by the Princes and Princesses of the Royal Family should be henceforth established defined and limited in manner hereinafter declared Now Know Ye that We of our especial grace certain knowledge and mere motion do hereby declare our Royal Will and Pleasure that the children of any Sovereign of these Realms and the children of the sons of any such Sovereign and the eldest living son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales shall have and at all times hold and enjoy the style title or attribute of Royal Highness with their titular dignity of Prince or Princess prefixed to their respective Christian names or with their other titles of honour And We do further declare our Royal Will and Pleasure that save as aforesaid the style title or attribute of Royal Highness Highness or Serene Highness and the titular dignity of Prince or Princess shall not henceforth be assumed or borne by any descendent of any Sovereign of these Realms excepting always any such descendant who at the date of these Letters Patent holds or bears any right to any such style degree attribute or titular dignity in pursuance of any Letters Patent granted by Ourselves or any of Our Royal Predecessors and still remaining unrevoked it being Our Royal Will and Pleasure that the grandchildren of the sons of any such Sovereign in the direct male line (save only the eldest living son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales) shall have and enjoy in all occasions the style and title enjoyed by the children of Dukes of these Our Realms Our Will and Pleasure further is that Our Earl Marshal of England or his deputy for the time being do cause these our Letters Patent or the enrolment thereof to be recorded in Our College of Arms to the end that Our officers of Arms and all others may take due notice thereof. In Witness whereof We have caused these Our Letters to be made Patent Witness Ourself at Westminster the thirtieth day of November in the eighth year of Our reign.
By Warrant under the King's Sign Manual.
Schuster.

(Original letters patent, National Archives, HO 125/15. See also College of Arms, ms. I78/25.)
Whitehall, 11th December, 1917.
The KING has been pleased by Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, bearing date the 30th ultimo, to define the styles and titles to be borne henceforth by members of the Royal Family. It is declared by the Letters Patent that the children of any Sovereign of the United Kingdom and the children of the sons of any such Sovereign and the eldest living son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales shall have and at all times hold and enjoy the style, title or attribute of Royal Highness with their titular dignity of Prince or Princess prefixed to their respective Christian names or with their other titles of honour; that save as aforesaid the titles of Royal Highness, Highness or Serene Highness, and the titular dignity of Prince and Princess shall cease except those titles already granted and remaining unrevoked; and that the grandchildren of the sons of any such Sovereign in the direct male line (save only the eldest living son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales) shall have the style and title enjoyed by the children of Dukes.

(London Gazette, issue 30428, Dec. 14, 1917, p. 2.)