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View Poll Results: What Title will the Queen bestow on William and Catherine?
Duke of Clarence 25 16.45%
Duke of Cambridge 68 44.74%
Duke of Sussex 5 3.29%
Duke of Windsor 8 5.26%
Duke of Kendall 2 1.32%
Earl of Something 8 5.26%
Hey! My choice isn't listed. I think it will be something else. 10 6.58%
Nothing. I think they will remain Prince and Princess William of Wales 26 17.11%
Voters: 152. You may not vote on this poll

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  #941  
Old 03-14-2011, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsarevitch

In essence there is no difference between Prince and Princess William of Wales and Mrs and Mrs William Morris.
I know- I think it's kind of sexist and retro for a woman to go by Mrs. William Morris as well... Any name that replaces her first name just doesn't sound right to me personally.
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  #942  
Old 03-14-2011, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsarevitch View Post
In essence there is no difference between Prince and Princess William of Wales and Mrs and Mrs William Morris.
This isn't the 1950's any more. Most women don't say hi I am Mrs. James Wilson, they say I am Mrs. Sarah Wilson. Women may take their husband's last name, some don't and some do the Spanish thing and use both, but they usually retain their first name.

Yes I am sure she will be called Princess Catherine in public, actually I'd not be surprised if the press calls her Princess Kate, but the Queen will not grant her that right or she'd have to for others like the Princess Michael. I'd like to see them be given a Ducal title, it could be another 10-20 years before Elizabeth dies, considering she is 80 and her mother was 102 when she died. I doubt it will take long after Charles becomes king, that he names his son Prince of Wales.

Princess Kate I think we will see by a lot of people. Look at how many people called Diana Princess Di.
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  #943  
Old 03-14-2011, 04:47 PM
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Oh, undoubtedly the public will do what the public wants. The French Press still writes Lady Di, 30 years after her marriage. And the Brits used to say Queen-Mum.

Without any doubt Catherine will remain known as Kate, maybe Princess Catherine at best. A title will not help either because the tabloids will really never ever refer to her as The Duchess of Cambridge or The Duchess of Rothesay for that matter. This is no reason to throw a formal style overboard.

If William had no titles, then -formally- they would be adressed as:
Mr and Mrs William of Wales

Now with titles:
Prince and Princess William of Wales

It is archaic, but the whole monarchy hangs together from archaisms: why is the Queen still driving in a horsedrawn carriage to the Houses of Parliament? Can not she drive to it in a Toyota Prius hybrid and read the Speech from I-Pad?
  #944  
Old 03-14-2011, 05:02 PM
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My goodness! What is wrong with being "Princess William"? Sexist - not in my book. The reason, in my mind, that the BRF is the be-all, end-all of modernity's monarchies is that they have retained most the grace and custom of bygone years.
  #945  
Old 03-14-2011, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KittyAtlanta
My goodness! What is wrong with being "Princess William"? Sexist - not in my book. The reason, in my mind, that the BRF is the be-all, end-all of modernity's monarchies is that they have retained most the grace and custom of bygone years.
Very well said.
  #946  
Old 03-14-2011, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Penelope

Very well said.
I don't necessarily think that referring to a woman by her husband's name is a good tradition. One of the things I most admire about the British monarchy is how well they've adapted in recent years. They've managed to retain the dignity and pageantry of the monarchy while maintaing cultural relevance. I understand that it would be ridiculous for them to jump on every trend, but it's been proper business form to refer to women as Ms. first name (chosen last name) since the early eighties. At this point, Catherine using William's first name would be beyond dated. I think the beauty of this couple is that they come off as fresh and modem but still dignified, and I think allowing Catherine to use he own first name would fit with that. Granted, a ducal title means that it doesn't matter, but if they choose to
not take a ducal title- I think it would be prudent to let her be known as Princess Catherine
  #947  
Old 03-14-2011, 05:28 PM
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But then the Royal Court should throw all archaisms out of the windows. When Richard and Hyacinth Bucket are invited for the Queen's Garden Party, they will get a letter addressed to Mr and Mrs Richard Bucket and the text also does not simply say that they are welcome if they want.

No, it is By Her Majesty's Command that the Lord Chamberlain has the honor to invite them...

Oh yes, speaking about archaisms: why is the Lord Chamberlain not simply the CEO of Buckingham Ltd? Why is a Lady in Waiting not simply called Personal Assistant? And why is the Queen's Treasurer not simply the Concern Controller?

These archaisms are the spice in the sauce of the monarchy.

  #948  
Old 03-14-2011, 05:37 PM
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I think that particular one isn't a quaint archaism- I think it's actually based on a very damaging notion- that a woman should take on her husband's identity and forego her own. There are very good reasons women are no longer known primarily by their husband's first name. I know people will disagree, but I'd personally hate to see Kate go by that title.
  #949  
Old 03-14-2011, 05:44 PM
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I understand but you can be comforted that everyone will refer to her as Kate or Catherine, even if she was Empress of the Seven Seas.
  #950  
Old 03-14-2011, 06:21 PM
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I agree and disagree. I am married, use my husband's last name, but am independent in the sense of knowing I am equal to men. But, in all fairness, she is not a princess by birth, so to call her Princess Catherine is incorrect.

What is interesting, is Mary, Maxima, Mette-Marit, Mathilde, etc...are all called princess before the first name.

Also, Princess Alice, Prince Philip's mother, born a princess, was also called Princess Andrew, even though she was born a princess...
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  #951  
Old 03-14-2011, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HRHHermione
I think that particular one isn't a quaint archaism- I think it's actually based on a very damaging notion- that a woman should take on her husband's identity and forego her own.
I agree. It's similar to taking out the promise to obey from the wedding vows. In the same respect, I hope Kate and William's first born, if it is a girl, is made the heir. You can't claim to be remotely modern and changing with the times and keep practices if they are damaging because they are traditional. It is a good change to make.
  #952  
Old 03-14-2011, 06:48 PM
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Yes, the Europeans are all Princess Somebody. From a historical perspective, I like it that the BRF continues to do the Princess Male-Somebody, as it is easy to tell which royal women were born royal and those who were not.
  #953  
Old 03-14-2011, 06:49 PM
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Let's get back on topic.

If you would like to talk about the succession laws, please do so here http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...n-7472-38.html .
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  #954  
Old 03-14-2011, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post
I think that particular one isn't a quaint archaism- I think it's actually based on a very damaging notion- that a woman should take on her husband's identity and forego her own. There are very good reasons women are no longer known primarily by their husband's first name. I know people will disagree, but I'd personally hate to see Kate go by that title.
In this case that it what is hapening though, Catherine is taking on her husbands identity as a member of the BRF.
She is not Miss Catherine Middleton marrying Mr William Wales and becoming Mrs Catherine Wales. She is taking on the identity of a princess by virtue of marrying Prince William of Wales. She is not a princess by birth so Princess Catherine doesn't work.
  #955  
Old 03-14-2011, 07:05 PM
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In old days also royalborn ladies were called with their husband´s title like Empress Friedrich or Princess Andrew. But when they were called Princess Victoria respectively Princess Alice this was not exactly incorrect because both were still born Princesses on their own, of course.

This discussion is only for royaltywatchers and -lovers. The comman man in the street will simply say Wills and Kate.

  #956  
Old 03-15-2011, 09:38 AM
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Damaging? Sexist? Well, okay if you think so.
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  #957  
Old 03-15-2011, 10:31 AM
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It's just commonplace on the continent to oblige women royal's who were not born so, the right to be referred to as Princess xxxx. It's no big deal and neither should it be really, imo.

An unofficial reference (and that is all it is) toward a common born princess doesn't make a princess of the blood any less royal and takes nothing away from them personally. Especially those princesses who are the daughter of a sovereign who bare the designation of 'the'. That in itself is quite evident as to who infact they are by right of birth. No question.

It's not the done thing in England (with exception for a certain lady no longer with us) and fair enough.
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  #958  
Old 03-15-2011, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KittyAtlanta View Post
Yes, the Europeans are all Princess Somebody. From a historical perspective, I like it that the BRF continues to do the Princess Male-Somebody, as it is easy to tell which royal women were born royal and those who were not.
It is true that on many continental Courts the rules have been 'eased'. But it is still a widespread custom amongst royalty and aristocracy to address according tradition when it is about formal events. An example, this Belgian family:

The eldest male holder of the title and his spouse:
Le Comte et la Comtesse du Parc Locmaria

The Count's mother (the Dowager):
La Comtesse Douairière du Parc Locmaria

The Count's children:
Le Comte Alain du Parc Locmaria
Le Comte Claude du Parc Locmaria

The Count's siblings and in-laws:
Le Comte Gaëtan du Parc Locmaria
La Comtesse Gaëtan du Parc Locmaria née De Ghellinck
Le Comte Charles du Parc Locmaria
La Comtesse Charles du Parc Locmaria née De Brocqueville



But it does not say everything, actually the Countess Gaëtan and the Countess Charles are both also born aristocrats: the first one born from the Viscounts De Ghellinck and the other born from the Counts De Brocqueville.
  #959  
Old 03-15-2011, 10:54 AM
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Although, I would love to see her called anything but Princess William. I see nothing wrong with it as it wont be forever. I don't see it as sexist or damaging at all, it is tradition and that is what the royal family is all about. She will get other titles in time. IMO they will be Duke and Duchess of xxx. only a short time to wait and see now.

PS I will be very surprised if she is called Princess Catherine...
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  #960  
Old 03-15-2011, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post
I really hope Kate doesn't get stuck being called Princess William. It seems so retro and sexist. If William doesn't receive a ducal title, I really hope that Kate will be allowed to use Princess Catherine.
She won't be "stuck" with Princess William as her style (it is not a title) because The Queen will very likely create her grandson a Duke upon marriage. She will be HRH The Duchess of X.

The tradition of "Princess Husband's Name" is one that reflects the style being limited to the children and male-line grandchildren of The Sovereign by right of birth. A woman who marries into the family is a princess by marriage only, not in her own right.
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