The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Reigning Houses > British Royals > Prince Harry and Prince William

Join The Royal Forums Today
View Poll Results: What Title will the Queen bestow on William and Catherine?
Duke of Clarence 25 16.45%
Duke of Cambridge 68 44.74%
Duke of Sussex 5 3.29%
Duke of Windsor 8 5.26%
Duke of Kendall 2 1.32%
Earl of Something 8 5.26%
Hey! My choice isn't listed. I think it will be something else. 10 6.58%
Nothing. I think they will remain Prince and Princess William of Wales 26 17.11%
Voters: 152. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #861  
Old 02-21-2011, 10:44 PM
HRHHermione's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Boston, United States
Posts: 2,091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mermaid1962
And I can actually see how that shouldn't be the case, as the Kents are much further down in the line of succession. That's why I think this is a good opportunity to set precedent for the next generation- with the highest ranking royals of the next generation.
__________________

__________________
  #862  
Old 02-21-2011, 11:49 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 8,702
Quote:
Originally Posted by melissaadrian View Post
A duke is a lesser title then a prince, whether you like it or not. In seniority, prince of wales comes second only to the monarch and their consort. And perhaps a dowager consort, not sure about that.

In seniority the Duke of Cornwall comes second only to the monarch and their consort as well.

The Duke of Cornwall title is the automatic title, which is why I don't like the term 'lesser' for the title but rather the longer held title - with regard to Camilla using Duchess of Cornwall.

I would also argue that as the Duke of Cornwall title has restrictions on it that the Prince of Wales title doesn't it is actually more selective - e.g. the monarch could, if they wish, give the Prince of Wales title to a second son but they have no control over the Duke of Cornwall title.

As the holder of both is the same person it is semantics of course but I simply hate the word 'lesser' with its implications that Camilla isn't worthy of being Charles' consort.
__________________

__________________
  #863  
Old 02-21-2011, 11:57 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 8,702
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
Inferior is the appropriate word to use. Duke of Cornwall is an inferior title to Prince of Wales, not because it's a substandard title, or one of poor quality but because a royal duke ranks below a royal prince. So a royal princely title is superior to that of a royal ducal title.

Inferior | Define Inferior at Dictionary.com

You think I'm using the 3rd or 4th definition, when I'm using the 1st. We're talking about ranks, and their positions in the hierarchy, not abstract qualities related to worthiness.

However the Duke of Cornwall title can only be held by the eldest son of the monarch who is also the heir to the throne.

Technically the monarch could create anyone Prince of Wales - although precedent says that it is only given to the heir to the throne.

In this situation - as opposed to the normal situation with ranks - I would argue that Duke of Cornwall is not inferior to Prince of Wales - simply because the Duke title is automatice whereas the Prince title is one that has to be conferred and is able to be held by a person who can't hold the Duke of Cornwall title e.g. George III couldn't be Duke of Cornwall because he wasn't in the right relationship to the monarch - thus the Prince of Wales title was clearly an inferior title as it could be given to someone who didn't qualify for the Duke of Cornwall title.
__________________
  #864  
Old 02-22-2011, 12:45 AM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,736
Being a Prince or Princess of the UK is a style only. Until raised to the Peerage, the members of the royal family who are Princes and Princesses are commoners, albeit with royal rank and precedence ahead of the non-royal Peers of the Realm.

The Duke of Cornwall is the senior title of the heir to the throne and eldest son of The Sovereign as the first dukedom created in England. The Prince of Wales is superior only because it is created by The Sovereign for their male heir, but it is technically not a Peerage of the Realm.

I do not believe The Queen will allow Catherine the style of "Princess Catherine" upon marriage to William. She will be styled as "HRH The Duchess of X" or "HRH Princess William" as with any woman who marries into the family.
__________________
  #865  
Old 02-22-2011, 12:45 AM
HRHHermione's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Boston, United States
Posts: 2,091
I see the argument for why royal princely status outranks royal ducal status, although I also understand why Duke of Cornwall is an extremely prestigious title with more criteria than Prince of Wales.
__________________
  #866  
Old 02-22-2011, 12:55 AM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,736
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post
I see the argument for why royal princely status outranks royal ducal status, although I also understand why Duke of Cornwall is an extremely prestigious title with more criteria than Prince of Wales.
Royal rank flows from the the fount of honour to the lineal descendants in line of succession as regulated by the will of the Crown. The Letters Patent of 1917 state the children of The Sovereign and the male-line grandchildren of The Sovereign are entitled to the style and attribute of HRH Prince/Princess X.

When created a Peer, this becomes their hereditary title that passes on through the male heirs of the body, who eventually lose royal rank as HRH. For that reason, being a Royal Duke is superior to being just a Prince of the UK.
__________________
  #867  
Old 02-22-2011, 12:57 AM
Sister Morphine's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: North Carolina, United States
Posts: 2,726
Yes, but Charles is more than just a Prince of the UK, he's the Prince of Wales, a title that outranks just your garden variety prince of the UK.
__________________
"The grass was greener / The light was brighter / The taste was sweeter / The nights of wonder / With friends surrounded / The dawn mist glowing / The water flowing / The endless river / Forever and ever........ "
  #868  
Old 02-22-2011, 12:59 AM
HRHHermione's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Boston, United States
Posts: 2,091
Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg View Post
Royal rank flows from the the fount of honour to the lineal descendants in line of succession as regulated by the will of the Crown. The Letters Patent of 1917 state the children of The Sovereign and the male-line grandchildren of The Sovereign are entitled to the style and attribute of HRH Prince/Princess X.

When created a Peer, this becomes their hereditary title that passes on through the male heirs of the body, who eventually lose royal rank as HRH. For that reason, being a Royal Duke is superior to being just a Prince of the UK.
See, and that's an excellent point... that a ducal title can be passed down and is therefore superior. But I'd also argue that as a princely title is only held by those closest to the reigning monarch, IT is superior :)

That's the fascinating thing about royal history- it's very rarely an either/or and I think good arguments can be made in both directions.
__________________
  #869  
Old 02-22-2011, 02:07 AM
wbenson's Avatar
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: -, United States
Posts: 2,248
This thread is not the proper place to discuss feelings about Camilla or her title.

wbenson
British Forums Moderator
__________________
TRF rules and FAQ
  #870  
Old 02-22-2011, 03:25 PM
Nice Nofret's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Posts: 414
It seems to be clear know, that there will be a dukedom for them .. but still guessing which

Prince Charles jokes about getting old - Female First
__________________
  #871  
Old 02-22-2011, 05:31 PM
Warren's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 15,427
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post
See, and that's an excellent point... that a ducal title can be passed down and is therefore superior. But I'd also argue that as a princely title is only held by those closest to the reigning monarch, IT is superior :)
I think we're all getting somewhat off track by trying to determine a royal person's ranking by their title, or a title's ranking by the person who holds it. A better measure of position is simply proximity to the Sovereign. Thus the Earl of Wessex "outranks" the Duke of Gloucester who "outranks" Prince Michael of Kent.

All three are Princes of the United Kingdom with the style of Royal Highness and their titles give no measure or degree of "superiority". The Earl is a son of the Sovereign and the Duke is the eldest [surviving] son of the 3rd son of George V. In this example the Prince ranks last as he is the younger son of the 4th son of George V.

In regard to the ranking of the 'Prince of Wales' and 'Duke of Cornwall' titles, the obvious and significant fact is that the person who holds both will be officially and publicly known as The Prince of Wales.
__________________
Seeking information? Check out the extensive Royal A-Z
  #872  
Old 02-22-2011, 06:11 PM
KittyAtlanta's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: KittyLand Junction, United States
Posts: 3,025
Kate will be what the Queen wants her to be. I don't think HM will step on anyone's toes in this instance. She may not give him a dukedom, but wait for PW's father to do that. She has bestowed titles on all her sons, but couldn't really play favorites. PE would have been a duke as well, but he didn't want it. It wouldn't hurt them to be Prince and Princess William for a while.
__________________
  #873  
Old 02-22-2011, 06:56 PM
HRHHermione's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Boston, United States
Posts: 2,091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren
I think we're all getting somewhat off track by trying to determine a royal person's ranking by their title, or a title's ranking by the person who holds it. A better measure of position is simply proximity to the Sovereign. Thus the Earl of Wessex "outranks" the Duke of Gloucester who "outranks" Prince Michael of Kent.

All three are Princes of the United Kingdom with the style of Royal Highness and their titles give no measure or degree of "superiority". The Earl is a son of the Sovereign and the Duke is the eldest [surviving] son of the 3rd son of George V. In this example the Prince ranks last as he is the younger son of the 4th son of George V.

In regard to the ranking of the 'Prince of Wales' and 'Duke of Cornwall' titles, the obvious and significant fact is that the person who holds both will be officially and publicly known as The Prince of Wales.
Thank you for this excellent post! I was thinking along the same lines but didn't express it nearly as well.
__________________
  #874  
Old 02-22-2011, 09:54 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,736
Quote:
Originally Posted by KittyAtlanta View Post
She may not give him a dukedom, but wait for PW's father to do that. She has bestowed titles on all her sons, but couldn't really play favorites. PE would have been a duke as well, but he didn't want it. It wouldn't hurt them to be Prince and Princess William for a while.
William automatically becomes The Duke of Cornwall when his father succeeds to the throne, so there would be no need to create a dukedom. If Charles died before The Queen, William would become The Duke of Edinburgh as the eldest son of Philip's eldest son.

I would think The Queen feels it is appropriate for the heir to the heir to become a Duke upon marriage, something that hasn't happened since Victoria's reign when her grandson, Prince Albert Victor of Wales, was created The Duke of Clarence and Avondale as a young adult.

If it doesn't happen, it's likely to be William's own desire not to be a Duke at this time, knowing he will hold many titles in due course, or he may accept an Earldom in order to give Catherine a title upon marriage other than "Princess William of Wales".
__________________
  #875  
Old 02-22-2011, 10:05 PM
JennahPc's Avatar
Commoner
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonk
Calling Catherine Princes Catherine might be modern but really...why change what already works?

Already there is a Princess Charles, a Princess Edward, Princess Richard...they are just called by other names....Duchess of Cornwall, Countess of Wessex and Duchess of Gloucester.

I think Catherine will be Duchess of Whatever, Princess William.
Agreed 100%
__________________
  #876  
Old 02-22-2011, 10:17 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 8,702
Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg View Post
William automatically becomes The Duke of Cornwall when his father succeeds to the throne, so there would be no need to create a dukedom. If Charles died before The Queen, William would become The Duke of Edinburgh as the eldest son of Philip's eldest son.

Only if Philip has also died.
__________________
  #877  
Old 02-22-2011, 10:23 PM
MRSJ's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: ******, United States
Posts: 1,843
Can someone please clarify this for me- Wasn't it annouced at Edwards wedding he will become DOE upon Phillips death? I believe so, why do plp keep saying the DOE title will pass to Charles/William/ anyone else?
__________________
  #878  
Old 02-22-2011, 10:31 PM
Princejohnny25's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: , Antarctica
Posts: 2,033
Once Phillip has passed away, and Charles is King, the DoE title will merge with the crown again and then it is expected that Charles will bestow the DoE title on the current Earl of Wessex.
__________________
  #879  
Old 02-22-2011, 10:33 PM
MRSJ's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: ******, United States
Posts: 1,843
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princejohnny25
Once Phillip has passed away, and Charles is King, the DoE title will merge with the crown again and then it is expected that Charles will bestow the DoE title on the current Earl of Wessex.
So even if QEII has decreed it passes to Edward, if Charles is King when Phillip dies he can override that? Do plp generally feel he will honor his mothers wishes and pass it to Edward regardless?
__________________
  #880  
Old 02-22-2011, 10:36 PM
Zonk's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere in, United States
Posts: 10,378
Quote:
Originally Posted by MRSJ View Post
So even if QEII has decreed it passes to Edward, if Charles is King when Phillip dies he can override that? Do plp generally feel he will honor his mothers wishes and pass it to Edward regardless?
You should check out this thread, The future of the Duke of Edinburgh title .

It touches on your question.
__________________

__________________
.

Closed Thread

Tags
duke, prince william & catherine middleton wedding, titles, william & kate wedding


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





Popular Tags
abdication belgium brussels carl philip charlene chris o'neill crown prince frederik crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria current events fashion germany grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri hohenzollern infanta leonor infanta sofia jordan king carl xvi gustav king constantine ii king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander letizia luxembourg nobility official visit olympic games ottoman pieter van vollenhoven poland pregnancy president hollande prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince constantijn prince daniel prince floris prince pieter-christiaan princess aimee princess anita princess ariane princess astrid princess beatrix princess catharina-amalia princess charlene princess mabel princess madeleine princess margriet princess mary queen anne-marie queen fabiola queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen silvia royal royal fashion russia sofia hellqvist spain state visit sweden the hague wedding



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:58 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]