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View Poll Results: What Title will the Queen bestow on William and Catherine?
Duke of Clarence 25 16.45%
Duke of Cambridge 68 44.74%
Duke of Sussex 5 3.29%
Duke of Windsor 8 5.26%
Duke of Kendall 2 1.32%
Earl of Something 8 5.26%
Hey! My choice isn't listed. I think it will be something else. 10 6.58%
Nothing. I think they will remain Prince and Princess William of Wales 26 17.11%
Voters: 152. You may not vote on this poll

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  #61  
Old 11-18-2010, 01:16 AM
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Yeah, the Queen made her aunts Princesses in their own right. Princess Alice and Princess Marina, they were women the Queen looked up to.

Britain has its own tradition with titles. In the Netherlands, or in Belgium, or in Norway, they are looser with princess consorts, allowing for "Crown Princess Mette-Marit" or "Crown Princess Maxima" but in the UK, it's different.

The British Isles always were apart from the Continent so.... They broke from the Church and formed their own Church of England. The British Isles have a unique way.
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  #62  
Old 11-18-2010, 01:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CasiraghiTrio View Post
Yeah, the Queen made her aunts Princesses in their own right. Princess Alice and Princess Marina, they were women the Queen looked up to.
The Queen did NOT make either Alice or Marina Princesses in their own right. Marina was born a Princess of Greece and Denmark and was allowed to use that style while married to and widowed from The Duke of Kent.

Had she remarried she would still have been entitled to be Princess Marina of Greece and Denmark.

Alice of Gloucester was allowed to use Princess Alice but no Letters Patent were ever issued giving her that title - it was done as a courtesy due to her not wanting to be referred to as The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester. This is like the situation with Louise and James. They are legally HRH Prince James and HRH Princess Louise but the Queen has allowed them to be known as Lady Louise and Viscount Severn, and also with allowing Camilla to use the Duchess of Cornwall title over The Princess of Wales one - done without LPs to make it official.

The Queen has issued LPs to create ONE Prince in her reign - her husband and NO princesses.
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  #63  
Old 11-18-2010, 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
Wasn't it reported that he said he wanted to be styled as an Earl because he didn't want his children burdened with the expectations/duties that come with a senior title, like that of his nieces and nephews? I've read that here more than a few times, in fact. Of course legally his children are HRH Princess Louise and HRH Prince James, as there no letters patent to state otherwise, but they were styled according to their father's wishes in accordance with his own style as an Earl. Had he been given a Dukedom like his brother Andrew was, his children would have been HRH Prince/Princess from the outset.
Prince Edward could have still requested that his children be referred to as children of a duke. It would still be Lady Louise and Vicount Severn (assuming that was still his second title.) A second son would have been Lord Peter etc.
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  #64  
Old 11-18-2010, 06:29 AM
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Well all I can say is thank you to all you guys who have the technical knowledge about these titles because I've learned quite alot reading this! However, just to throw in another query and please do correct me if I'm wrong (!!) - if William is given a Dukedom (for instance Cambridge) upon his marriage he will be known as HRH The Duke of [Cambridge]. When Charles becomes king, William will automatically become HRH The Duke of Cornwall (a higher title than Cambridge) which will be used before he is made The Prince of Wales. Accordingly is it correct to say that his official title could changed three times before he becomes king?!

One can only imagine that there will be much discussion at the palaces about possible titles as well as here!
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  #65  
Old 11-18-2010, 06:39 AM
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This is exactly what happened with George V.
He was created Duke of York by Queen Victoria.
When Queen Victoria died he automatically become Duke of Cornwall and until November of that year was known as the Duke of Cornwall and York.
Then he became Prince of Wales and finally in 1910 he became The King.

As he was in the same position as William he is a good one to compare William to - they are both the eldest son of the Prince of Wales (of course George did have an older brother but Albert Victor died aged abot 28).
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  #66  
Old 11-18-2010, 06:45 AM
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I quite like the idea of a Duke and Duchess of Sussex, as a possibility.
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  #67  
Old 11-18-2010, 06:46 AM
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I actually like the title 'duke of Kendal'. It has been dormant for centuries I believe, but they once thought about giving the title to Leopold of Saxe-Coburg.
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  #68  
Old 11-18-2010, 07:14 AM
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Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't create Anne as Princess Royal via a Royal Warrant?
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  #69  
Old 11-18-2010, 07:20 AM
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Anne is a different scenario.

Prior to Elizabeth becoming Queen, George VI issued new letters patent (in 1948) granting these honours to any children of Princess Elizabeth and Prince Philip; otherwise, Anne would merely have been titled by courtesy as Lady Anne Mountbatten. In this way, the children of the heiress presumptive had a Royal and Princely status.

In reference to the Princess Royal title:

Princess Royal[1] is a style customarily (but not automatically) awarded by a British monarch to his or her eldest daughter. The style is held for life, so a princess cannot be given the style during the lifetime of another Princess Royal. In particular, Queen Elizabeth II never held the title as her aunt, Princess Mary, was in possession of the title. So far, there have been a total of seven.

Anne received the title in 1987, and its a tribute to the great work she has always done for the Crown. Say what you want about her wardrobe (and many do). Anne is no nonsense and a hard worker.

Also, Princess Mary (daughter of George V) was not given the title until her aunt (Princess Victoria daughter of Edward VII) had already passed. So from the mid 60's (when the Princess Royal, Countess Harewood passed) until June of 1987, there was no Princess Royal.

So if and when Anne passes, and William has a daughter, there is a possiblity that he can confer on his daughter the Princess Royal title. But she too will be a Princess at birth.
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  #70  
Old 11-18-2010, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texankitcat View Post
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't create Anne as Princess Royal via a Royal Warrant?

George VI amended the 1917 LPs in 1948 to give the title HRH Prince or Princess to the children of Elizabeth and Philip so Anne was born a Princess.

The title Princess Royal is a title like Prince of Wales, Duke of York etc not her title given as a birthright.

Anne was a Princess long before she was created Princess Royal in 1987. In fact she couldn't even be given that title until 1965 when the previous holder died (and that holder only got it late in life).

Princess Royal is only given to the eldest daughter of the monarch but there can only be one holder at a time, which is why Elizabeth was never Princess Royal as her aunt was alive and holding the title well into her own reign.

George V had to wait until 1932, 4 years before his own death before he could give that title to his own eldest daughter as he had to wait for his sister to die.

Edward VII was able to give the title to his eldest daughter early in his reign as his own sister died the same year as his mother. Victoria (Empress Frederick) held the title for most of her life having been created Princess Royal almost at birth and still holding that title when she died in Germany.

All of these woman though were born HRH Princess in their own right (except Mary who as the great-grand-daughter of the sovereign was born Her Highness Princess Mary).

It should also be remembered that if William's first child is a girl she won't be HRH Princess xxxx under the 1917 Letter's Patent but if it is a boy he will be HRH Prince xxx.
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  #71  
Old 11-18-2010, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post

It should also be remembered that if William's first child is a girl she won't be HRH Princess xxxx under the 1917 Letter's Patent but if it is a boy he will be HRH Prince xxx.
This is where it gets confusing. If a female born to William cannot be given the title Princess, then why are Prince Andrew's girls titled Princesses? Is it because he is the son of the reining Monach and William is the grandson? If that is the case, once Charles become King, would a female born to William then be given the title of Princess since William will then be Heir Presumptive?
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  #72  
Old 11-18-2010, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
It should also be remembered that if William's first child is a girl she won't be HRH Princess xxxx under the 1917 Letter's Patent but if it is a boy he will be HRH Prince xxx.
Can you explain why a daughter would not be styled as HRH Princess xxx? What would her style be?
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  #73  
Old 11-18-2010, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texankitcat View Post
This is where it gets confusing. If a female born to William cannot be given the title Princess, then why are Prince Andrew's girls titled Princesses? Is it because he is the son of the reining Monach and William is the grandson? If that is the case, once Charles become King, would a female born to William then be given the title of Princess since William will then be Heir Presumptive?
Because in the 1917 LP the title Prince/Princess is limitzed to the children and grandchidlren of the Monarch. An exception is made for the oldest son of the oldest son of the Prince of Wales.
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  #74  
Old 11-18-2010, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
Because in the 1917 LP the title Prince/Princess is limitzed to the children and grandchidlren of the Monarch. An exception is made for the oldest son of the oldest son of the Prince of Wales.
That being the case why wouldn't a female born to Prince William be a Princess? If he doesn't have a son, then she would be in direct line to the throne, would she not?
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  #75  
Old 11-18-2010, 08:12 AM
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Yes she would be.. but she can be like Norway where Sevre Magnus is just a HH and not an HRH like his sister, Ingrid Alexandra who will be Queen of Norway.

Or William (or Charles) can grant a new patent. Since the original was written in 1817, and obviously another (in 1948) was issued regarding Elizabeth's children. So its not written in stone.

You must remember 1917 - World a changing. Thus ends the House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and begins the House of Windsor. A lot Prince and Princess who what German sounding names became Earls, Lords, Marquess, etc. Also, the BRF is trying to scale down its numbers...but I think that will happen as a natural selection (i.e. death).
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  #76  
Old 11-18-2010, 08:13 AM
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i didn't know about the children not being called prince or princess. I thought all children born of a prince/princess were addressed as such.
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  #77  
Old 11-18-2010, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by texankitcat View Post
That being the case why wouldn't a female born to Prince William be a Princess? If he doesn't have a son, then she would be in direct line to the throne, would she not?
She would became a Princess when her grandather (Charles) would became King). It's possible that in this case the Queen would give them the title Prince/Princess via LP.
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  #78  
Old 11-18-2010, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
The Queen did NOT make either Alice or Marina Princesses in their own right. Marina was born a Princess of Greece and Denmark and was allowed to use that style while married to and widowed from The Duke of Kent.

Had she remarried she would still have been entitled to be Princess Marina of Greece and Denmark.
Bertie, I must disagree with you about QEII 'allowing' Marina to use that style. That was her title from birth, from her family. She would have been entitled to be Princess Marina has she married the mail carrier or no one at all. It had nothing to do with QEII.
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  #79  
Old 11-18-2010, 11:09 AM
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I did a bit of digging in the Letters patent and here si what I found out: All of the children and the grandchildren (in the male line) of the sovereign are entitled to use HRH (unless decided otherwise by the parents eg the Essexs) also the son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales can also have HRH. I couldn't find anything about the daughtere of the eldest son of P'rince of Wales, but there is an example, namely Princess Mary, the Princess Royal and Countess of Harewood. she was the great-grandchild of the Monarch (Victoria) and from her birth she was styled as HH Princess Mary of York. Then with LP she was elevated to to HRH. (She was fifth in line when she was born) As her father George V became the heir to the throne she was forstly HRH Princess Mary of Cornwall and York , then HRH Princess Mary of Wales. When her father became king, she became HRH The Princess Mary. After her marriage she was known as HRH The Princess Mary, Countess of Harewood and then HRH The Princess Royal, Countess of Harewood.
I hope that helps...
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  #80  
Old 11-18-2010, 12:05 PM
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I would sincerely hope that if William & Kate's first child is a daughter that males first inheritance be changed to eldest child as it is most of continental Europe (Spain being the notable exception). Same with respect to all other titles. I don't see why a blanket LP couldn't be issued changing hereditary rules for all future title-holders.

As far as what title their children would receive... No need for them to necessarily be Prince or Princess during the early years of life. Again, make it all equal.
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