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View Poll Results: What Title will the Queen bestow on William and Catherine?
Duke of Clarence 25 16.45%
Duke of Cambridge 68 44.74%
Duke of Sussex 5 3.29%
Duke of Windsor 8 5.26%
Duke of Kendall 2 1.32%
Earl of Something 8 5.26%
Hey! My choice isn't listed. I think it will be something else. 10 6.58%
Nothing. I think they will remain Prince and Princess William of Wales 26 17.11%
Voters: 152. You may not vote on this poll

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  #621  
Old 01-20-2011, 06:47 PM
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This could be a really dumb question & I suspect I already know the answer but going to ask anyway since many on here seem to know a lot more about titles & how it all works so just wanted to check I'm right with my assumption.

But let's say for the sake of argument on marriage William & Kate were made Duke & Duchess of Hogwarts & thus any children they had would be HRH Prince/Princess X of Hogwarts. If then Charles became King & therefore William automatically became Duke of Cornwall, would Kate & any children's titles automatically be "upgraded" as well? And then let's say Charles did then make William the Prince of Wales would all the titles of Kate & children be upgraded to "of Wales"? Would they keep the old titles but give presidence to the new & more important titles or do the old ones go back to the crown or could they choose to have their children still be known as Prince/Princess X of Hogwarts if they wanted? I suspect it all just automatically upgrades as the titles change & gain more importance but wasn't certain.
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  #622  
Old 01-20-2011, 06:53 PM
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From what I understand, if William and Kate are Duke and Duchess of Hogwarts and have kids BEFORE Charles becomes King...then their kids are Lady and Lord based on the 1917 LP of George V.

When Charles comes King, then William gets the upgrade and they (William and Kate) are Duke & Duchess of Cornwall, Hogwarts and everything else. Then the kids would HRH Prince and Princess of Cornwall, Hogwarts, etc.

When Charles confers the title of HRH The Prince of Wales on William, then Kate and the kids get the of Wales title.

Does that sound right?
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  #623  
Old 01-20-2011, 07:01 PM
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AFAIk when William is created a Royal Duke of Y, his eldest son will be a HRH Prince X of Y according to the 1917 LP. All other kids will be Lord or Lady First Name Windsor. At least till Charles' ascension - then they will be the grandchildren of the souverain in male line and thus Royal Highnesses.

But if the queen acknowledges that in the 100 years since the last change of the laws for Royals people live to see not only their grandchildren but great-grand-children, she will see to it that all children of William and Catherine will be Royal Highnesses and prince/princess at birth because one day they will be the children of the souverain. One has to fear otherwise that the public get used to children of a direct line heir who are not a prince/princess...
  #624  
Old 01-20-2011, 07:03 PM
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See I was under the impression that only grandsons of a Monarch may bear the HRH Prince title. Thus William qualifies. If the Queen is still alive, then William's eldest son is in fact a great grandson. But I am sure the real experts will chime in.
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  #625  
Old 01-20-2011, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
See I was under the impression that only grandsons of a Monarch may bear the HRH Prince title. Thus William qualifies. If the Queen is still alive, then William's eldest son is in fact a great grandson. But I am sure the real experts will chime in.
Plus the eldest son of the grandson in direct line to the throne. But at the moment only this son. So I guess that the queen will make provisions in case the eldest child is a girl.
  #626  
Old 01-20-2011, 07:22 PM
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When does Catherine receive the...Royal Family Order?
  #627  
Old 01-20-2011, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Sherlock221B View Post
When does Catherine receive the...Royal Family Order?
An easy one! When Her Majesty chooses and not a moment before.
  #628  
Old 01-20-2011, 07:51 PM
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Sorry to be such a newbie...what is the "Royal Family Order?" Thanks :)
  #629  
Old 01-20-2011, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Gudgeon View Post
Sorry to be such a newbie...what is the "Royal Family Order?" Thanks :)
It is an honor bestowed by HM on female family members. Here is a link with more info. Royal Family Order of Queen Elizabeth II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  #630  
Old 01-20-2011, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
...She was a princess on her marriage but she was HRH The Princess Charles (along with the feminine of his other titles) - just as Camilla is HRH The Princess Charles etc now...
No, Camilla is not "The Princess Charles" and Diana was never "The Princess Charles." Similarly, Sophie is not "The Princess Edward." A British royal wife takes her husband's title, not his name. Charles, is not and has never been "The Prince Charles." Edward was "The Prince Edward" at one time but once he became "The Earl of Wessex" that became his title and Sophie took his title.
  #631  
Old 01-21-2011, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by cmkrcwi View Post
No, Camilla is not "The Princess Charles" and Diana was never "The Princess Charles." Similarly, Sophie is not "The Princess Edward." A British royal wife takes her husband's title, not his name. Charles, is not and has never been "The Prince Charles." Edward was "The Prince Edward" at one time but once he became "The Earl of Wessex" that became his title and Sophie took his title.

NO

Charles was born Prince Charles and on his mother's accession became The Prince Charles, Duke of Cornwall etc.

He was and still is The Prince Charles. His wives take all of his titles true - including his title of Prince but never was Diana Princess Diana but she was a Princess so what name did she have as a princess - The Princess Charles. His first title is that of Prince and as such his wives take all of his titles - including that of Princess but in Britain they don't take the title Princess own name but rather Princess husband's name in the way that Prince Micheal's wife is Princess Michael.

They don't lose the title The Prince xxx when given another title but simply use the other titles more often. The same thing say with the fact that Edward is currently The Earl of Wessex. The intention is that at some point in the future he will become The Duke of Edinburgh. He won't cease to be The Earl of Wessex but will use the other title more often. Even more confusing is who is currently The Viscount Severn - no not James but Edward. James uses his father's second title as a courtesy title but substantively it is Edward's. When, and if, Edward is created Duke of Edinburgh the James will start to use Earl of Wessex as a courtesy but Edward will still be The Earl of Wessex.

If Charles had no other title but Prince Charles (and as the son of the monarch The Prince Charles) then what title would his wives have had - simply The Princess Charles. Although they never used it they still had it because it is the most basic of Charles, his brothers and sister's titles. Charles is still The Duke of Cornwall despite being given the title Prince of Wales.

You don't lose one title just because you have been given another - you add titles to your list of titles.
  #632  
Old 01-21-2011, 01:05 AM
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HRH Prince/Princess of the UK are styles regulated by the will of The Sovereign for lineal descendants of the blood royal in succession to the throne. It is a German practice brought over by the Hanovers when they succeeded to the British throne in 1714 to conform to existing titles used in the Germanic tradition.

In the UK, anyone who is not The Sovereign or created a Peer is a commoner, including Princes and Princesses. So, when a son or grandson of The Sovereign is created a Duke, they now have a title that is hereditary to their descendants, who eventually lose royal rank as HRH and take their precedence as Peers by date of creation.

So, a son or male-line grandson is HRH The Prince X or Prince X of Y, but they are also a Duke, Earl, etc. The same distinction applies to their wives, who are Princesses in rank and style, but take their titles after their husband's Peerage.
  #633  
Old 01-21-2011, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
NO

He was and still is The Prince Charles. His wives take all of his titles true - including his title of Prince but never was Diana Princess Diana but she was a Princess so what name did she have as a princess - The Princess Charles. His first title is that of Prince and as such his wives take all of his titles - including that of Princess but in Britain they don't take the title Princess own name but rather Princess husband's name in the way that Prince Micheal's wife is Princess Michael.
It's the same with the courtesy titles of the sons and daughters of higher peers.
A Lady First name Family name always is the daughter of a peer, either of an earl, marquess or duke.
A Lord First Name Family Name is always the son of a marquess or duke.

So "Lady Anne Miller" Or "Lady Catherine Fisher" is always the daughter of a peer. When her brother "Lord Paul Something" marries, his wife, let's name her Zara, will share his title and rank, but only in the female form. So we can meet her as "Zara Something" or as "Lady Paul Something" but never as Lady Zara Something. Of course, if she herself was born a "Lady", then she keeps her own First name. But only in this case.

So Diana was "The Princess Charles" after her marriage but after her divorce could choose between the style of Diana, Princess of Wales or Lady Diana Mountbatten-Windsor and chose the first.

BTW - if the queen enobles women, she does not create them a "Lady" but a "Dame". I don't know how this works right now with Lady Antonia Fraser, who is a lady by birth as the daughter of a marquess but has now been personally ennobled as a "Dame". Is she now Dame Antonia or still Lady Antonia? Which title is higher? Maybe someone here knows that.
  #634  
Old 01-21-2011, 05:24 AM
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Is she now Dame Antonia or still Lady Antonia? Which title is higher? Maybe someone here knows that.
She's Lady Antonia Fraser, DBE.
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  #635  
Old 01-21-2011, 05:30 AM
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She's Lady Antonia Fraser, DBE.
Thank you, Lumutueen. Yes, it makes sense to put the new letters which signal her being a Dame Commander of the Order of the British Empire behind her name.

Another question: is Lady Antonia now a peer? As she is ennobled, she is no longer a commoner, or is she? We learned that even the daughter of a queen is a commoner as she is no peer. But as Princess Anne eg is a Dame of the Order of the Garter she is personally ennobled through that. Is se then no longer a commoner, even though as a princess she is?
  #636  
Old 01-21-2011, 05:34 AM
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I don't think that a person who is made a Dame is actually a noble just as a male given a knighthood isn't a peer or a noble. Dame is the feminine form for a knight while the male is Sir.

Again of course, the man is able to raise his wife in style but a woman can't raise her husband as the wife of a Sir is a Lady but a woman effectively knighted in her own right is a Dame.
  #637  
Old 01-21-2011, 06:34 AM
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William's title

Whatever title William and Catherine are given will revert back to "the crown" when Princes Charles become King, as William and Kate will then automatically become Duke & Duchess of Cornwall at that point.

Titles change with circumstance for example

Prince Charles title at birth was Prince Charles of Edinburgh, as his mother was the Duchess of Edinburgh at the time.

When Elizabeth ascended the throne, Charles became Duke of Cornwall, then when he was 18 was invested as Prince of Wales.

Princess Anne was Princess Anne of Edinburgh at birth then The Princess Anne and finally became the Princess Royal
  #638  
Old 01-21-2011, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
I don't think that a person who is made a Dame is actually a noble just as a male given a knighthood isn't a peer or a noble. Dame is the feminine form for a knight while the male is Sir.

Again of course, the man is able to raise his wife in style but a woman can't raise her husband as the wife of a Sir is a Lady but a woman effectively knighted in her own right is a Dame.
I ust read the article on the Britsih honours system at Wikipedia and have now understood that in Britain really only peers are nobles. As long as a prince is not created a peer, he is a commoner like anyone else.

But the commoners are not a group of equal people as there are certain different "classes" according to the social rank and poistion in the order of precedence a person possesses. The most common thing is to inherit a social rank (sometimes coming with a certain style of adress) from father or (in rare cases of peeresses in her own right) mother or to acquire it through marriage as the wife shares the social rank of her husband.

But the queen as "fount of honour" can raise people to a higher social rank through conferring a peerage, a life peerage, a position or membership in an order or through conferring a position of precedence.

Thus the social position and precedence of Lady Antonia Fraser as daughter of a peer was already higher than the honour conferred on her as a dame commander of the order of the British empire. And even if the queen conferred a personal dukedom on her daughter Anne, she would not alter her social position and precedence through it. Anne would only become a peeress and thus be a "noble" but already she is higher up in the social ranks as any other non Royal noble of the UK.

That's the difference between Royal commoners and nobles. Though the members of the peerage are above most commoners, they are not above the Royal commoners, even if these Royals were not created peers.

I hope I got this right.

So the whole discussion about commoners marrying Royals is in the end pointless because Britain has a completely different system of social rank than other countries and being "noble" or "commoner" is not comparable eg to the (former) Germanic system or the French.

Catherine is a commoner now as she is not a peer and not the souverain. If William is not created a peer, the couple "Prince and Princess William of Wales" will both be commoners. But with the rank and precedence of a prince and princess-wife of the UK which is higher than any non-Royal duke.
  #639  
Old 01-21-2011, 09:33 AM
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That is correct. A Prince of the UK is of royal rank and takes precedence ahead of the non-royal Peers, but remains a commoner unless raised to the Peerage. Their style and rank is not hereditary, but when created a Peer, they now have a title which is.
  #640  
Old 01-21-2011, 09:43 AM
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What if change in the rules of succession

If the laws change to remove the precedence of male heirs, would Anne take the throne instead of Charles thereby interfering with any future titles for William and Catherine?
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