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View Poll Results: What Title will the Queen bestow on William and Catherine?
Duke of Clarence 25 16.45%
Duke of Cambridge 68 44.74%
Duke of Sussex 5 3.29%
Duke of Windsor 8 5.26%
Duke of Kendall 2 1.32%
Earl of Something 8 5.26%
Hey! My choice isn't listed. I think it will be something else. 10 6.58%
Nothing. I think they will remain Prince and Princess William of Wales 26 17.11%
Voters: 152. You may not vote on this poll

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  #561  
Old 01-14-2011, 06:10 PM
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That's a good question, I could imagine the answer being Charles' titles are indivisible.
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  #562  
Old 01-14-2011, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windsorgirl View Post
Don't know if this has been asked before, but could one of Charles' minor titles, say Earl of Carrick, be peeled off and given to William, thus making Kate "HRH Catherine, Countess of Carrick". Isn't that what happens at birth with other sons, like Viscount Severn, Lord Downpatrick, etc? Or are Charles' titles indivisible, so to speak?

Charles' titles are only used by the heir to the throne and never used a courtesy titles by his heir. Strictly speaking Charles' titles aren't inheritable as there are conditions that apply as to who can hold them.

In the present reign if Charles dies before the Queen William will not ever become Duke of Cornwall etc as those titles can only be held by the eldest living son of the monarch who is alos the heir apparent to the throne. So to allow him to use one of Charles' titles would be wrong as there is no guarantee that William would ever hold them in a substantive form.
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  #563  
Old 01-14-2011, 08:04 PM
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But I don't understand, if Charles's titles can only be held by the heir, were he to die before QEII wouldn't William be automatic heir? Can Charles's titles only be held by son of monoarch or by heir? Because sometimes they are not same person (ie should QEII outlive Charles)
  #564  
Old 01-14-2011, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRSJ View Post
But I don't understand, if Charles's titles can only be held by the heir, were he to die before QEII wouldn't William be automatic heir? Can Charles's titles only be held by son of monoarch or by heir? Because sometimes they are not same person (ie should QEII outlive Charles)

Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay can only be held by the heir who is also the eldest son of the monarch. You can be Prince of Wales without being the eldest son of the monarch.

So say Charles dies tomorrow. That means William will inherit the throne when the Queen dies. William would not become HRH The Duke of Cornwall and The Duke of Rothesay as he is not also the eldest son of the monarch. Charles's titles would revert back to the crown, as there are none that he passes on to his son. Prince of Wales is not an automatic title. It has to be created each time it's used. The Queen could then create a new Prince of Wales and invest William as such, but he would still be HRH Prince William of Wales should his father die before the Queen.
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  #565  
Old 01-14-2011, 08:24 PM
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Thanks for the answer. I suppose if they were courtesy titles then William would have held one from birth.
  #566  
Old 01-14-2011, 09:03 PM
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Thank you! I didn't realize they were all seperate- I love learning new info on TRF! :)
  #567  
Old 01-14-2011, 09:17 PM
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Do William and Catherine need a title? Can they not just be Prince and Prince William of Wales?
  #568  
Old 01-14-2011, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRSJ View Post
But I don't understand, if Charles's titles can only be held by the heir, were he to die before QEII wouldn't William be automatic heir? Can Charles's titles only be held by son of monoarch or by heir? Because sometimes they are not same person (ie should QEII outlive Charles)

George III, for instance, was never Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay etc but he was the heir apparent from the time of the death of his father. He couldn't hold these titles because the LPs that created them clearly put in two conditions - heir apparent AND eldest son of the monarch.

Throughout history there has only been a couple of occasions when the heir apparent wasn't also the eldest son of the monarch and the most recent was George III. His grandfather, George II created him Prince of Wales however. I would have to look up the others as they would be back in the middle ages.

So if Charles died in the present reign William's grandmother could create him Prince of Wales at some time - she took 6 years to create Charles Prince of Wales whereas he automatically became Duke of Cornwall etc at the same time she became Queen. She may decide not to give him his father's title.

Assuming Charles outlives the Queen then William will automatically become Duke of Cornwall etc but it will be up to his father to decide when, and even if, he creates his son Prince of Wales - note that the Queen took over 6 years before creating Charles Prince of Wales, George V took 6 weeks and Edward VII took nearly 10 months before creating George V PoW. He himself had to wait a couple of weeks although he was born Duke of Cornwall etc.
  #569  
Old 01-14-2011, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Susan D View Post
Do William and Catherine need a title? Can they not just be Prince and Prince William of Wales?

They could be just that but would Catherine want to be HRH Princess William of Wales? At least with a title she can have identity sort of separate to her husband but with no title (unless the Queen was to overtune centuries of tradition) Catherine would cease to be formally referred to by her own name.

As, say Duchess of Hogwarts, then she could be known as HRH The Duchess of Hogwarts (not Catherine, Duchess of Hogwarts as that is the divorced style not the married style - nor would it be correct to say HRH Catherine, Duchess of Hogwarts).
  #570  
Old 01-14-2011, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windsorgirl View Post
Thanks for the answer. I suppose if they were courtesy titles then William would have held one from birth.

Exactly - the only courtesy title he could have used from birth would have been Baron Greenwich as he is also 2nd in line to the title Duke of Edinburgh and he could have used that title but the style of HRH Prince ..... is probably higher.
  #571  
Old 01-14-2011, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
...As, say Duchess of Hogwarts...
Duchess of Hogwarts?

I don't see the Queen investing William as the Prince of Wales if Prince Charles should pass before she does. The title is too long associated with Prince Charles, and if he should die still bearing that title, then I think it would only be proper to skip a generation (if William has a son) before it would be invested on another heir.
  #572  
Old 01-15-2011, 09:45 AM
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The Queen would most certainly create William "Prince of Wales" if Charles predeceased her as he would be the heir to the throne.
  #573  
Old 01-15-2011, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
The Queen would most certainly create William "Prince of Wales" if Charles predeceased her as he would be the heir to the throne.
She certainly could do so, but as Bertie and others have pointed out it's not a hereditary title, therefore it's at the Monarch's pleasure as to whether she would bestow it. Based on the Queen's age and the fact that in 16 years she will be 100 years old, if Prince Charles were to pass within the next decade or so before the Queen, then she may very well not invest Prince William as the POW, since he would already have the heredity titles of Duke of Cornwall and Rothesay, and realistically it wouldn't be much longer before he was crowned King.

Also, to invest a new POW so soon after the death of the current one, when it is not a hereditary title that is automatic after the death of the current title holder, may not be something William would want or the Queen would grant.

If Prince Charles passed before Camilla and the Queen, then I wonder if Camilla would still be known as Duchess of Cornwall and Rothesay. Wouldn't that present an issue as to what title Kate would bear since she would then be the Duchess of Cornwall and Rothesay?
  #574  
Old 01-15-2011, 01:47 PM
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No matter of the title which they may get he will be Will, Prince William and she will be Kate, Katherine or Princess Kate/Katherine
untile they become HMs.
  #575  
Old 01-15-2011, 02:19 PM
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..If Charles passes away, while the Queen still lives; Camilla would be still Duchess of Cornwall
  #576  
Old 01-15-2011, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texankitcat View Post
She certainly could do so, but as Bertie and others have pointed out it's not a hereditary title, therefore it's at the Monarch's pleasure as to whether she would bestow it. Based on the Queen's age and the fact that in 16 years she will be 100 years old, if Prince Charles were to pass within the next decade or so before the Queen, then she may very well not invest Prince William as the POW, since he would already have the heredity titles of Duke of Cornwall and Rothesay, and realistically it wouldn't be much longer before he was crowned King.

Also, to invest a new POW so soon after the death of the current one, when it is not a hereditary title that is automatic after the death of the current title holder, may not be something William would want or the Queen would grant.

If Prince Charles passed before Camilla and the Queen, then I wonder if Camilla would still be known as Duchess of Cornwall and Rothesay. Wouldn't that present an issue as to what title Kate would bear since she would then be the Duchess of Cornwall and Rothesay?
Please reread Iluvbertie's reply #568. In order to be Duke of Cornwall you must be both the eldest son of the monarch and heir apparent.
  #577  
Old 01-15-2011, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by texankitcat View Post
She certainly could do so, but as Bertie and others have pointed out it's not a hereditary title, therefore it's at the Monarch's pleasure as to whether she would bestow it. Based on the Queen's age and the fact that in 16 years she will be 100 years old, if Prince Charles were to pass within the next decade or so before the Queen, then she may very well not invest Prince William as the POW, since he would already have the heredity titles of Duke of Cornwall and Rothesay, and realistically it wouldn't be much longer before he was crowned King.
If Charles died in the present reign then William would never be Duke of Cornwall and Rothesay as he wouldn't meet the two necessary criteria -

1.the eldest living son of the monarch is one of the criteria and he could only be that if Charles is King
2.the heir apparent - he would be that.

The best precedent is George III. His father was the eldest son and heir apparent and so was automatically Duke of Cornwall etc when his father became King and his father then created him Prince of Wales. However when Frederick died George III became heir apparent but never Duke of Cornwall etc because he wasn't the eldest son of the King but a grandson.

Quote:
Also, to invest a new POW so soon after the death of the current one, when it is not a hereditary title that is automatic after the death of the current title holder, may not be something William would want or the Queen would grant.
George V took 6 weeks before creating his son and heir PoW. They get created. Having an investiture is not necessary.

Quote:
If Prince Charles passed before Camilla and the Queen, then I wonder if Camilla would still be known as Duchess of Cornwall and Rothesay. Wouldn't that present an issue as to what title Kate would bear since she would then be the Duchess of Cornwall and Rothesay?
Like the widow of every other title holder Camilla would continue to hold the titles - Princess of Wales, Countess of Chester, Duchess of Cornwall, Duchess or Rothesay etc. Just as she will become Queen Consort when Charles becomes King and keeps that title is she outlives him she would keep her current titles if he dies before becoming King. If happens all the time. George III's mother was known as Princess of Wales, Duchess of Cornwall etc after the death of her husband and George III was The Prince of Wales (but never Duke of Cornwall etc as he was not the eldest living son of the monarch and heir apparent - he was only the heir apparent after the death of his father but he was created Prince of Wales.

It would actually be easier for Camilla as it would be years before a female could hold those titles again as it would have to wait until Willliam's eldest living son and heir apparent married before they would be used again.
  #578  
Old 01-15-2011, 05:39 PM
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I just love all this information!
  #579  
Old 01-15-2011, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by AuroraB View Post
Please reread Iluvbertie's reply #568. In order to be Duke of Cornwall you must be both the eldest son of the monarch and heir apparent.
Yep, now I see. Thank you!
  #580  
Old 01-15-2011, 11:49 PM
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This stuff is amazing- all the possible senerios are fascinating!
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