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View Poll Results: What Title will the Queen bestow on William and Catherine?
Duke of Clarence 25 16.45%
Duke of Cambridge 68 44.74%
Duke of Sussex 5 3.29%
Duke of Windsor 8 5.26%
Duke of Kendall 2 1.32%
Earl of Something 8 5.26%
Hey! My choice isn't listed. I think it will be something else. 10 6.58%
Nothing. I think they will remain Prince and Princess William of Wales 26 17.11%
Voters: 152. You may not vote on this poll

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  #401  
Old 12-13-2010, 09:19 AM
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I totally agree!

Come April 29th...she will be known as Princess Kate, Princess Catherine or Duchess Kate whether its the correct form or not.

And again, Brigitte, Camilla, Katharine, Sophie, Marie Christine have all represented the BRF in a positive and productive manner and they aren't Princessess in their own names. And frankly, I don't think they care.

Certainly there is a difference between a future Queen Consort of England and a cousin in laws....but whats the point. The Queen isn't going to set up a new precedent for Kate.
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  #402  
Old 12-13-2010, 12:01 PM
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It would not be appropriate for Catherine to be "Princess Catherine" upon marriage to William. It raises questions in terms of precedent and practice (i.e. can wives of Peers also take their titles and precedence upon marriage in their own right, which means they could legally claim to retain it after divorce?), and there is no reason for it.

A wife has always taken the style, title and rank of her husband upon marriage in the UK, whether royal or a Peer (or both). To suddenly change all that for one woman opens a can of worms in my opinion.
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  #403  
Old 12-13-2010, 01:59 PM
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But for commoners the usage has changes. It's not longer automatically Mr. and Mrs. X. Y. , she can opt to keep her own name or take his last name with her own first name. Probably due to gender equality, which has rooted in most people's mind. Maybe this is a good chance to think about gender equality when it comes to W&K.

If you translate "Prince and Princess William of Wales" as Prince William of Wales and his princess-wife then it doesn't sound so ridiculous. Just like the Duchess of Y is the Duke's duchess. It has something very romantic to it that the newly-wed wife takes his titles and styles because now as a couple they can share what was once only his.

But I always liked the way Charles and Camilla showed as a married couple that they are individuals. Charles obviously doesnt have a "Princess of Wales" while Camilla doesn't have a "Duke of Cornwall" by her side when in England apart from Cornwall. (As an aside: does she call herself "Princess of Wales" when in Wales?). of course this is different bacause due to tradition the title of The Duke of Cornwall is as high as the title of the Prince of Wales. If not higher as the Duke of Cornwall is always the direct heir, the oldest son of the monarch, while the Prince of Wales can be a grandson. So the Duchess of Cornwall is as high-ranked as the Princess of Wales but has her own name/title so to speak.
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  #404  
Old 12-13-2010, 02:23 PM
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Charles has many titles as the eldest son and heir to the throne, in addition to being The Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester. As his wife, Camilla is first and foremost "HRH The Princess Charles" as the wife of a son of The Sovereign. If he had no other titles, that would be her style.

Legally, she is The Princess of Wales and Countess of Chester, just as the late Diana was while married. Out of sensitivity to her memory, Camilla chose to use her ducal title as her style in England and Wales (in Scotland, she is "HRH The Princess Charles, Duchess of Rothesay"). But this is simply a choice on her part and does not mean she is not Princess of Wales.

So, the point remains the same. William has no other titles at the present other than "HRH Prince William of Wales". If he asks The Queen not to create him a Peer, his wife will have no choice but to be known as "HRH Princess William of Wales", just as Marie-Christine is styled.

Since he is the spare to the throne, it is appropriate The Queen create him a Duke upon marriage, or if not, an Earl for now. At that point, his wife will have a title other than "Princess William" and there is no need to change precedent.
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  #405  
Old 12-13-2010, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wbenson View Post
Royal wedding: Prince William asks the Queen not to make him a duke - Telegraph

The Queen faces a dilemma over what to call Kate Middleton after Prince William suggests that she should become 'Princess Catherine'.

Mandrake can disclose that the 28 year-old has, however, let it be known that he would prefer to remain Prince William rather than be made a duke.

"He says he was born Prince William and wants to continue to be known as that," says a courtier. "He wants Kate to become Princess Catherine."
But I think we have to take it with a big grain of salt when they have unnamed sources, like a random courtier as this quote says. I doubt that the Queen has said anything to anyone about having some kind of dilemma. It sounds like it's all rumor. And who's Mandrake?
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  #406  
Old 12-13-2010, 04:34 PM
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The thing to remember is that the Queen is the font of all honors so whatever she's called, she'll be called so at the Queen's behest. I personally don't think she'll be made a princess in her own right, nor do I think she should. There is no precedence for that in the UK, and the two instances where the Queen allowed a widowed Duchess to use the title "Princess" before her own name were for the Duchess of Gloucester and the Duchess of Kent, both of whom were married to her uncles. It would be unfair for Catherine to get that honor/privilege when there are other more senior married ladies in the BRF that weren't given that option or choice.

She'll either be HRH Princess William of Wales or HRH The Duchess/Countess of X, if the Queen bestows William with a dukedom or earldom when he marries. Otherwise, you'll have to wait for her to be Queen herself before you see her own given name immediately follow her title.
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  #407  
Old 12-13-2010, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windsorgirl View Post
A technical question: If HM did not have to issue LPs for Lady Louise or Viscount Severn NOT to be called Princess or Prince, rather just announce that "it was decided....", why could she not issue a similar decision regarding Catherine? Or could she? As I understand it, all titles are at her discretion -- that her word is all it takes. Please advise.

One big difference is that as the children of an Earl they are also Lady Louise and Lord Severn so they are just using lesser titles whereas Princess Catherine would be a totally new title to be created for her and would thus need LPs to be legal.
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  #408  
Old 12-13-2010, 05:30 PM
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If The Queen chose to allow it, she would simply announce on the morning of the wedding that Catherine would be known as "Princess Catherine" upon marriage to Prince William. Since Catherine would automatically become a Princess of the UK by marriage on her wedding day, the matter is simply one of permitting a different style than normally accorded.

It does not mean Catherine would be a Princess of the UK in her own right (she would not) nor does it change the 1996 Letters Patent in which The Queen decreed that a former wife of a Prince of the UK, other than a widow until she remarries, would not be entitled to HRH upon divorce.

It would simply be a style she is allowing Catherine to use upon marriage to her grandson.
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  #409  
Old 12-13-2010, 05:53 PM
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However to be fair she would have to allow all such women the same right including Princess Michael of Kent. To do it for one and not all is discriminatory.
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  #410  
Old 12-13-2010, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
However to be fair she would have to allow all such women the same right including Princess Michael of Kent. To do it for one and not all is discriminatory.
Absolutely. It wouldn't be fair to her cousins' wives, some of whom have worked long and hard in service to public duty and the Crown.

Most importantly, in a modern world where even the heir to the throne divorces and remarries, it's all the more reason not to open the door to granting such a style outside normal practice and precedent.
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  #411  
Old 12-13-2010, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
ALL the wives of the men are Princesses but they use their husband's names. It is the same thing as any woman marrying - technically Mrs Jane Smith is the divorced wife of Mr John Smith and Mrs John Smith is the correct technical form of the wife of Mr John Smith.
Can I just point out that in this day and age many women do not take their husband's surname, choosing to either keep their maiden name of to hyphenate the two names.
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  #412  
Old 12-13-2010, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
However to be fair she would have to allow all such women the same right including Princess Michael of Kent. To do it for one and not all is discriminatory.
The Queen probably could do whatever she wished I think along the same lines as bestowing the royal family order. They are given at the Queen's
discretion. Whereas the DoC has one, Princess Michael does not. The Queen consented to Camilla be styled as The Duchess of Cornwall so she could very well decide that Kate could be styled as Princess Catherine.

Whether or not she does it is a totally different ball of wax. I really can't see it happening as the title system has been intact more or less for a very long time and changing two styles in 6 years would allude to instability. Why it was done for Camilla was understandable. For Kate I think it is for less important reasons.
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  #413  
Old 12-13-2010, 07:17 PM
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Yes, but Catherine is not marrying Mr. William Windsor and living happily ever after in obscurity. She is marrying the spare to the throne and a future King, so she might as well get used to the fact there are rules, and lots of them, when marrying into the royal family.

The style, titles and rank of wives marrying Peers or Princes of the UK is long established in precedent and practice. You don't change it for one woman who hasn't done a thing yet except getting married, especially when divorce is now accepted as part of life for the royal family.

William is naive if he thinks The Queen is going to suddenly start changing tradition for his new wife (assuming any of this speculation is even true). That isn't going to happen.
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  #414  
Old 12-13-2010, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
The Queen consented to Camilla be styled as The Duchess of Cornwall so she could very well decide that Kate could be styled as Princess Catherine.
Again Camilla is using one of Charles' titles in its feminine form.
Princess Catherine is NOT the feminine form of Prince William.
That is a bit difference. The feminien form of Prince William is Princess William.
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  #415  
Old 12-13-2010, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg View Post
...She is marrying the spare to the throne...
William isn't 'the spare'. He is the direct heir to his father. Harry is the spare as he would only be the heir if something happened to William.
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  #416  
Old 12-13-2010, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
The Queen consented to Camilla be styled as The Duchess of Cornwall

The Duchess of Cornwall was one of Camilla's titles the nanosecond after she married Charles. She's using it instead of The Princess of Wales, but that has nothing to do with the Queen.
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  #417  
Old 12-13-2010, 11:24 PM
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...but that has nothing to do with the Queen.
I've not heard that. I was certain that it in order for the Princess of Wales to be officially known by a subsidiary title, that it does require the permission of the monarch. That this particular designation is reserved for use in the Duchy, would therefore warrant the approval of the sovereign if it's to be officially observed as the Princess of Wales' public title.

Then again, I'm probably mistaken.
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  #418  
Old 12-14-2010, 12:40 AM
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Duchess of Cornwall is her title in England, not just Cornwall. The title reflects the first dukedom created in England. In Wales, she is Princess of Wales and Countess of Chester, while in Scotland, she is Duchess of Rothesay. Since these titles are hers automatically with marriage, she does not need the permission of The Queen to use one over the other as her style.

In the UK, she is HRH The Princess Charles as the wife of a son of The Sovereign.
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  #419  
Old 12-14-2010, 01:36 AM
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Prince of Wales is considered to be superior to being Duke of Cornwall, mainly because of historical traditions of Wales being independent as a principality. It is not considered a Peerage since it is created by the will of the Sovereign and cannot be inherited.

The Dukedom of Cornwall is a peerage, but limited by charter to the eldest son of The Sovereign who is also the heir to the throne. It can only pass to the next eldest son of The Sovereign if an heir dies with no issue and the next eldest son becomes the heir to the throne. Otherwise, the dukedom and the income of the duchy revert to the Crown.
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  #420  
Old 12-14-2010, 01:43 AM
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Just goes to show that no matter how much knowledge you may have acquired over the years, you always learn something which at first wasn't apparent to you (ie; me) :)

Thanks for the explanation.
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