Prince William and Catherine Middleton Possible Titles

[Polly]

I think that you might find that the Prince of Wales is automatically conferred on the eldest son of the Monarch. This is by Statute and is not at the Monarch's discretion. It is not necessary for any PoW to be formally invested, such as happened during the current reign. That was for domestic political reasons, and very good reasons at that.

In the nobility, there are occasions when males have been able to assume the titles of their wives, though these are uncommon and the situation has altered since 1963. Currently, the Countess Mountbatten holds her father's title, suo jure, (in her own right), the first, it's claimed, in 300 years.

Scotland, of course, has a solid history of allowing succession to titles irrespective of gender.

Thus, if it's acceptable in the aristocracy and enjoys susbstantial historical precedence, perhaps the time has come when the Palace will modernise in this matter, too. Despite what courtiers think, it shouldn't be too hard invent a title for the husband of any Princess of Wales.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I think that you might find that the Prince of Wales is automatically conferred on the eldest son of the Monarch. This is by Statute and is not at the Monarch's discretion. It is not necessary for any PoW to be formally invested, such as happened during the current reign. That was for domestic political reasons, and very good reasons at that.

The Prince of Wales title is NOT automatic. It must be conferred each time. George V wasn't created Prince of Wales until November 1901 despite being the eldest living son and heir apparent since January of that year. In 1910 George V waited about 6 weeks after becoming King before creating his son Prince of Wales. The present Queen took over 6 years before creating Charles Prince of Wales - acceeding 6th February 1952 but not creating Charles Prince of Wales until 26th July, 1958.

These heirs all became automatically Dukes of Cornwall and Rothesay on becoming the eldest living son and heir apparent to the throne.

The title Prince of Wales can also be held by anyone who is the heir apparent to the throne even if not the eldest son e.g. George III was created Prince of Wales by his grandfather after the death of his own father but George III was never able to be Duke of Cornwall or Rothesay as he was never the eldest living son of the monarch who was also the heir apparent.

 

[Kataryn]

I am sure it's no longer possible legally possible for the UK to create a Dukedom of Melbourne or Sydney, etc.,

One should not forget that both towns were named after British peers. Sydney was named after the 1. Viscount Sydney, while Melbourne was named after the 2. Viscount Melbourne, both high ranked politicians of their time.

As the original place "Melbourne Hall" is still in Derbyshire, UK, the queen could well decide to create the title, which belonged once to the Lambs, viscounts Melbourne of Melbourne Hall but is extinct since 1853, new for William.

The title of Lord Sydney (the last one was Earl Sydney who died in 1890) is extinct as well, thus available for a new creation. The first Lord Sydney
took the title Sydney to commemorate his descent from Robert Sidney, 2nd Earl of Leicester, who in turn had traced his descent from a Surrey yeoman, John de Sydenie. The name Sydenie derives from a village in Normandy called Saint-Denis.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Townshend,_1st_Viscount_Sydney#cite_note-2http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Townshend,_1st_Viscount_Sydney#cite_note-3

Ok, the queen wouldn't do it... but she could. Create William duke of Sydney or Melbourne without any links to Australia.

 

[wbenson]

Kate Middleton, Duchess of Cambridge? A primer on royal titles - Yahoo! News

In our second Q&A (read the first) with our royal expert Laura Trevelyan, we tackle the confusing issue of royal titles. There's the lingering question of what Prince William's wife-to-be, Kate Middleton, will be called: will she inherit Diana's title, the Princess of Wales?

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Some "expert."

 

[Roslyn]

Yes. It's frightening.

 

[Osipi]

This woman is no expert!

"BBCA: Why is Camilla not the Princess of Wales?
Charles is the Prince of Wales and also the Duke of Cornwall. As Diana had been the Princess of Wales, Camilla couldn't very well have that title once she married Charles, so she became the Duchess of Cornwall"

They should have checked with TRF before printing this article. Camilla IS The Princess of Wales but just chooses to be known as (styled) as The Duchess of Cornwall. What gets me is people out there are reading this stuff and actually believing it!

- - - - - - - -

Actually it would be very possible in years to come that Kate will become The Princess of Wales should Charles as King create his son William The Prince of Wales. Hopefully that's a long way down the road yet.

 

[Sunnystar]

I was so annoyed by that article when I read it awhile ago that I didn't even bother posting a link here, lol.

 

[Britters]

This may have been asked already, but, when would we find out if they are to receive a title upon marriage? Will we really not know until the wedding day, or is it something that would be released beforehand?

 

[Zonk]

If a new title is going to be announced, I would think it would be announced on the actual wedding day or a day before that. I believe that is what happened with both Andrew and Edward.

No earlier than that in my opinion.

 

[Princess Kikky]

Her Royal Highness The Princess William Arthur Phillip Louis, Princess of Wales and Countess of Chester, Duchess of Cornwall, Duchess of Rothesay, Countess of Carrick, Baroness of Renfrew, Lady of the Isles, Princess of Scotland.

That is Camilla's current title.

New to the thread, but without reading through all 28 pages of replies to see if this had been mentioned, Camilla isn't married to William (obviously). She's married to Charles Philip Arthur George.

 

[Charlotte_Aster]

BBCA: What might Kate Middleton be called once she marries William?
LT: As things stand, she will become Her Royal Highness Catherine when she gets married because William doesn't have a territorial title. He is a royal prince. However, if as expected, the Queen confers an Earldom or a Dukedom on William, either before or after his marriage then she will be Countess Catherine if William is given an Earldom, or Duchess Catherine if William is given a Dukedom. In the grand scheme of things, a Duke is senior to an Earl so William could well become a Duke as he is in direct line to the throne.

Dear me, HRH Catherine? And this woman calls herself an "expert" ?`It would only take 5 minute tops for her to check Wikipedia. or she can of course check here

 

[Zonk]

I saw the "discussion" on yahoo and stopped reading after the 2nd error. Where do they find these people? Surely not at TRF

 

[Lumutqueen]

New to the thread, but without reading through all 28 pages of replies to see if this had been mentioned, Camilla isn't married to William (obviously). She's married to Charles Philip Arthur George.

Someone asked what her title would be when she was Princess of Wales, I illustrated that by saying "This is Camilla's title at the moment" meaning it will be exactly the same when Catherine becomes Princess of Wales.

 

[Zonk]

I think the confusion is that in your initial email you referred to Camilla's title as Her Royal Highness The Princess William Arthur Phillip Louis, Princess of Wales and Countess of Chester, Duchess of Cornwall, Duchess of Rothesay, Countess of Carrick, Baroness of Renfrew, Lady of the Isles, Princess of Scotland and not The Princess Charles Phillip Arthur George.

Basically Camilla is married to William, and at present he is not Princes of Wales or any of that other stuff.

 

[Lumutqueen]

I changed the name, seeing as it would be Catherine's future title, didn't think it would be that confusing.

 

[Lady Ann]

Kate Middleton, Duchess of Cambridge? A primer on royal titles - Yahoo! News

In our second Q&A (read the first) with our royal expert Laura Trevelyan, we tackle the confusing issue of royal titles. There's the lingering question of what Prince William's wife-to-be, Kate Middleton, will be called: will she inherit Diana's title, the Princess of Wales?

-------

Some "expert."

All most all the answers are wrong lol

 

[Sister Morphine]

I saw the "discussion" on yahoo and stopped reading after the 2nd error. Where do they find these people? Surely not at TRF

Surely not. However, I've come to realize that the people who post here have an interest in royalty, so we know things like this, as opposed to people who have no interest in it. It's an easy mistake for someone to make, to refer to Catherine as HRH Princess Catherine, if they don't know that she won't become a princess in her own right and will follow the style convention of other commoner brides who have married into the BRF.

I guess that's what sets us apart.

 

[Warren]

The discussion of what may have happened if Queen Adelaide had given birth after Queen Victoria's accession has been moved to the Queen Victoria thread.

 

[EmpressRouge]

Surely not. However, I've come to realize that the people who post here have an interest in royalty, so we know things like this, as opposed to people who have no interest in it. It's an easy mistake for someone to make, to refer to Catherine as HRH Princess Catherine, if they don't know that she won't become a princess in her own right and will follow the style convention of other commoner brides who have married into the BRF.

I guess that's what sets us apart.

So after I read that appallingly error-ridden Yahoo article about Catherine's titles, I decided to check out the original BBC America article from which Yahoo used.
Kate Middleton, Duchess of Cambridge? A Primer on Royal Titles | BBCAmerica - Anglophenia blog
It seems BBCA article corrected itself (and Yahoo printed the unedited version) made note of the corrections at the bottom of the page. Of course they still got the "why Camilla is Duchess of Cornwall and not Princess of Wales" thing wrong. People always say that Wikipedia cannot be trusted because everyone can edit it, but seriously, it does a much better and way more accurate explaining titles in their articles.

 

[windsorgirl]

Don't know if this has been asked before, but could one of Charles' minor titles, say Earl of Carrick, be peeled off and given to William, thus making Kate "HRH Catherine, Countess of Carrick". Isn't that what happens at birth with other sons, like Viscount Severn, Lord Downpatrick, etc? Or are Charles' titles indivisible, so to speak?

 

[Lumutqueen]

That's a good question, I could imagine the answer being Charles' titles are indivisible.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Don't know if this has been asked before, but could one of Charles' minor titles, say Earl of Carrick, be peeled off and given to William, thus making Kate "HRH Catherine, Countess of Carrick". Isn't that what happens at birth with other sons, like Viscount Severn, Lord Downpatrick, etc? Or are Charles' titles indivisible, so to speak?

Charles' titles are only used by the heir to the throne and never used a courtesy titles by his heir. Strictly speaking Charles' titles aren't inheritable as there are conditions that apply as to who can hold them.

In the present reign if Charles dies before the Queen William will not ever become Duke of Cornwall etc as those titles can only be held by the eldest living son of the monarch who is alos the heir apparent to the throne. So to allow him to use one of Charles' titles would be wrong as there is no guarantee that William would ever hold them in a substantive form.

 

[MRSJ]

But I don't understand, if Charles's titles can only be held by the heir, were he to die before QEII wouldn't William be automatic heir? Can Charles's titles only be held by son of monoarch or by heir? Because sometimes they are not same person (ie should QEII outlive Charles)

 

[Sister Morphine]

But I don't understand, if Charles's titles can only be held by the heir, were he to die before QEII wouldn't William be automatic heir? Can Charles's titles only be held by son of monoarch or by heir? Because sometimes they are not same person (ie should QEII outlive Charles)

Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay can only be held by the heir who is also the eldest son of the monarch. You can be Prince of Wales without being the eldest son of the monarch.

So say Charles dies tomorrow. That means William will inherit the throne when the Queen dies. William would not become HRH The Duke of Cornwall and The Duke of Rothesay as he is not also the eldest son of the monarch. Charles's titles would revert back to the crown, as there are none that he passes on to his son. Prince of Wales is not an automatic title. It has to be created each time it's used. The Queen could then create a new Prince of Wales and invest William as such, but he would still be HRH Prince William of Wales should his father die before the Queen.

 

[windsorgirl]

Thanks for the answer. I suppose if they were courtesy titles then William would have held one from birth.

 

[MRSJ]

Thank you! I didn't realize they were all seperate- I love learning new info on TRF!

 

[Susan D]

Do William and Catherine need a title? Can they not just be Prince and Prince William of Wales?

 

[Iluvbertie]

But I don't understand, if Charles's titles can only be held by the heir, were he to die before QEII wouldn't William be automatic heir? Can Charles's titles only be held by son of monoarch or by heir? Because sometimes they are not same person (ie should QEII outlive Charles)

George III, for instance, was never Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay etc but he was the heir apparent from the time of the death of his father. He couldn't hold these titles because the LPs that created them clearly put in two conditions - heir apparent AND eldest son of the monarch.

Throughout history there has only been a couple of occasions when the heir apparent wasn't also the eldest son of the monarch and the most recent was George III. His grandfather, George II created him Prince of Wales however. I would have to look up the others as they would be back in the middle ages.

So if Charles died in the present reign William's grandmother could create him Prince of Wales at some time - she took 6 years to create Charles Prince of Wales whereas he automatically became Duke of Cornwall etc at the same time she became Queen. She may decide not to give him his father's title.

Assuming Charles outlives the Queen then William will automatically become Duke of Cornwall etc but it will be up to his father to decide when, and even if, he creates his son Prince of Wales - note that the Queen took over 6 years before creating Charles Prince of Wales, George V took 6 weeks and Edward VII took nearly 10 months before creating George V PoW. He himself had to wait a couple of weeks although he was born Duke of Cornwall etc.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Do William and Catherine need a title? Can they not just be Prince and Prince William of Wales?

They could be just that but would Catherine want to be HRH Princess William of Wales? At least with a title she can have identity sort of separate to her husband but with no title (unless the Queen was to overtune centuries of tradition) Catherine would cease to be formally referred to by her own name.

As, say Duchess of Hogwarts, then she could be known as HRH The Duchess of Hogwarts (not Catherine, Duchess of Hogwarts as that is the divorced style not the married style - nor would it be correct to say HRH Catherine, Duchess of Hogwarts).

 

[Iluvbertie]

Thanks for the answer. I suppose if they were courtesy titles then William would have held one from birth.

Exactly - the only courtesy title he could have used from birth would have been Baron Greenwich as he is also 2nd in line to the title Duke of Edinburgh and he could have used that title but the style of HRH Prince ..... is probably higher.