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View Poll Results: What Title will the Queen bestow on William and Catherine?
Duke of Clarence 25 16.45%
Duke of Cambridge 68 44.74%
Duke of Sussex 5 3.29%
Duke of Windsor 8 5.26%
Duke of Kendall 2 1.32%
Earl of Something 8 5.26%
Hey! My choice isn't listed. I think it will be something else. 10 6.58%
Nothing. I think they will remain Prince and Princess William of Wales 26 17.11%
Voters: 152. You may not vote on this poll

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  #201  
Old 11-20-2010, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
William wouldn't be the Queen's eldest son, but he would be her heir as he's the eldest son of the Prince of Wales.

The Duke of Cornwall title, like the Duke of Rothesay title (and all the other titles Charles gained automaticallin in 1952) are restrited by TWO criteria - only one of them is being the heir apparent. The holder must also be the eldest son of the monarch. William will only fill both those criteria in the reign of his father and not in the reign of his grandmother. So if Charles died now William would never be Duke of Cornwall or Duke of Rothesay etc but the Queen could create him Prince of Wales.

This is the situation that George III was in from 1751, when his father died. He was never Duke of Cornwall or Duke of Rothesay despite being the heir apparent because he wasn't the eldest son of the monarch.
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  #202  
Old 11-20-2010, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
William wouldn't be the Queen's eldest son, but he would be her heir as he's the eldest son of the Prince of Wales.
Yes, of course. But the point is The Duke of Cornwall is only held by the eldest son AND heir of the monarch. You have to be both.
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  #203  
Old 11-20-2010, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
The Duke of Cornwall title, like the Duke of Rothesay title (and all the other titles Charles gained automaticallin in 1952) are restrited by TWO criteria - only one of them is being the heir apparent. The holder must also be the eldest son of the monarch. William will only fill both those criteria in the reign of his father and not in the reign of his grandmother. So if Charles died now William would never be Duke of Cornwall or Duke of Rothesay etc but the Queen could create him Prince of Wales.

I understand that. I was merely saying that while William would not be the Queen's eldest son, he would be her heir as branchg said that he would NOT be her heir.
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  #204  
Old 11-20-2010, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
Yes, of course. But the point is The Duke of Cornwall is only held by the eldest son AND heir of the monarch. You have to be both.

I understand that as well. It's been explained to me about five times and once was enough.
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  #205  
Old 11-20-2010, 10:37 PM
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The Duke of Rothesay is for the heir apparent - whether a son of the current monarch or not.

If QEII only had one child, Charles and he died, Williams would be the Duke of Rothesay but not the Duke of Cornwall. The Duke of Cornwall would return to the crown until such time as there is a son and heir of a sitting monarch.
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  #206  
Old 11-20-2010, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grevinnan View Post
The Duke of Rothesay is for the heir apparent - whether a son of the current monarch or not.

If QEII only had one child, Charles and he died, Williams would be the Duke of Rothesay but not the Duke of Cornwall. The Duke of Cornwall would return to the crown until such time as there is a son and heir of a sitting monarch.

George III was the heir apparent and was not Duke of Rothesay. His only Dukedom was Edinburgh.

The fact that George III was the heir apparent but not Duke of Rothesay would also indicate that that Dukedom can only be held by the eldest son of the monarch.

Duke of Rothesay - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia has a list of the holders of the title Duke of Rothesay and George III is not listed as a holder. In every list of titles, I have seen, held by George III Duke of Rothesay is never listed. His only Dukedom was Edinburgh which he inherited from his father when his father died in 1751. He was also created Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester that same year and was known by that title for the rest of the time until his accession in 1760. If he had held the title of Duke of Rothesay then he would be listed as Duke of Rothesay and Edinburgh in 1751 but I have never come across such a reference. Hence my belief that the Duke of Rothesay title has the same requirements as the Cornwall title.
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  #207  
Old 11-21-2010, 12:03 PM
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You are correct. The Duke of Rothesay title can only be given to the eldest son of the monarch, who is also heir apparent. An Act of the Parliament of Scotland passed in 1469 governs the succession to this title. It provides that "the first-born Prince of the King of Scots for ever" should hold the dukedom. If the first-born Prince dies before the King, the title is not inherited by his heir – it is only for the first-born son, like the Duchy of Cornwall.

That's the reason that George III wasn't the Duke of Cornwall or the Duke of Rothesay. Those titles were held by his father, Frederick, Prince of Wales, who was the eldest son and heir apparent of George II until his death.

George III succeeded his grandfather. His father, Frederick PoW, had also been created the Duke of Edinburgh.. so the future George III succeeded only to the Dukedom of Edinburgh.

That being said, if Prince Charles dies before succeeding to the throne, then William will not become the Duke of Cornwall or the Duke of Rothesay.

As it now stands, William would not inherit any ducal title from Charles because Charles holds no other ducal titles.. just those of Cornwall and Rothesay.. in fact, William wouldn't inherit any title at all from Charles were he to die before the Queen, because all of Charles' subsidiary titles are tied to either Cornwall or Rothesay.
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  #208  
Old 11-21-2010, 12:25 PM
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Oh wow, one really has to keep a calm mind with this titlething

Im glad we dont have that in DK
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  #209  
Old 11-21-2010, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyNemesis View Post
In my opinion HM The Queen should create HRH The Prince William, The Duke of Clarence and St. Andrews. The last person to hold this title was King William IV, and it was given to him while he was the grandson of the reigning King. The bonus is that St. Andrews holds special meaning to both William and Kate
Even if it's not possible to include St Andrews, I agree that this is a nice argument for choosing Clarence as a dukedom for Prince William. Yes, the last holder of the title died young, but it would be a pity to discard it for ever on that basis.

Now if Prince Harry could find himself a nice Irish girl, perhaps Connaught could be brought back out of the closet as well!
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  #210  
Old 11-21-2010, 02:21 PM
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I doubt you'd ever see Connaught used as a royal title again, seeing as the Irish gained their independence from England a while back. That might oh I don't know, upset them and rightfully so.
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  #211  
Old 11-21-2010, 02:24 PM
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Yes, I do understand that of course, but if his bride were Irish, people might take a different view.
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  #212  
Old 11-21-2010, 04:30 PM
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But Catherine is not Irish, so that is a moot point. Also, If she were Irish, more than likely she would be Roman Catholic which would open a whole different can of worms.
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  #213  
Old 11-21-2010, 05:11 PM
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I was speculating about Prince Harry, so it hasn't anything to do with Catherine, and the RC possibility would not be so important in his case. I do realise the thread is about Prince William, but the Connaught comment was made as an aside.
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  #214  
Old 11-21-2010, 05:34 PM
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That's not true.

Until William and Kate have a child, and the line of succession is extended, Harry's marital prospects are quite important. In order to keep his place in line, Harry can't marry a Catholic or if the girl he intends to marry is Catholic she must convert. If he marries a Catholic and renounces his place in line, until William has a child, the next in line for the throne is Beatrice (or is it the Duke of York?). Kind of puts everyone in a bit of a lurch.

Which is why the Act of Settlement is ridiculous, but that's another thread.
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  #215  
Old 11-21-2010, 05:47 PM
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I was aware of the implications regarding marriage to Catholics, but thank you anyway.

I said that it's not so important in Harry's case, which is true - or will be once William has heirs, the prospects of which are now not as far off as they seemed this time last week
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  #216  
Old 11-21-2010, 06:06 PM
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The Roman Catholic issue isn't as big of a deal as it seems. If either of the boys wanted to marry a Catholic, the prospective bride would simply have to convert to the Anglician Church, which is not a difficult move for a Catholic as the two have more in common than not.
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  #217  
Old 11-21-2010, 06:10 PM
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Well Autumn Kelly did it, but Peter Philips was never in serious contention for being King of England unless everyone in place in line ahead of him died suddenly. So she didn't have to, but rather chose to. Any Catholic who would want to marry either William or Harry would have to convert. However it also depends on how steadfast in their faith the prospective bride is. If they don't feel that tied to their faith and would have no problem converting, they probably would. Now Charlotte Casiraghi, whose name I see bandied about here......I doubt very seriously she would ever convert.

Iluvbertie probably knows this, but the last Catholic monarch in England was one of the Stuarts, right? So we're talking early to mid 1600s?
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  #218  
Old 11-21-2010, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
Which is why the Act of Settlement is ridiculous, but that's another thread.
Oh I quite agree.

As Princess William of Wales, I believe Catherine would be 3rd Lady of the Realm after The Queen and Camilla.
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  #219  
Old 11-21-2010, 06:59 PM
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Wouldn't she be behind the Princess Royal?
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  #220  
Old 11-21-2010, 07:25 PM
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No, she would be 3rd Lady in the land after the Queen and Camilla.
It will go something like this: Queen, Camilla, Catherine (after marriage), Sophie and then Anne.

The women take their "precedence" from their husbands.

If Charles is dead, William dies with no heirs, then its Harry. If he dies with no heirs, than its Andrew and Beatrice. Which is always why I said...until William and Harry have kids (especially with their chosen professions) you shouldn't count Beatrice out just yet.
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